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Posted

I ask this for your opinions, thoughts, and insights.

 

I sometimes post on another board and (hopefully its ok) I would like to link a thread that is going on over there. NOT so that we can all march over there and say "huzzah! you're wrong!" but rather I would like to have this discussion on here. I will probably be starting another thread I would like to get some more opinions on that is in tandem to this thread but worthy of a secondary set of thought patterns.

 

Without futher ado this is the link:

Click me! 

So the thread there is pretty simple: 

Apparently DBS is "Fractured" due to Riplingers divorces (although Dean burgeon has been a TR-Only group not  KJVO group but anyway)
Ruckman has passed away
Steven Anderson is a menace (which I don't disagree with)
Etc..

Do you see the KJB issue still in full force or not?
 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I also take exception to the idea that IFB is a "movement". Each local assembly is Independent, therefore cannot be considered a "movement." "Movements" come about when God's people look outside of their local assemblies and follow men because of their "strong personalities."

I apologise if the term "ifb movement" is offensive to you.  I certainly agree that that is not the way it is supposed to be at all. However when the vast majority of pastors of IFB churches are influenced and taught through the Jack Hyles method of ministry, through the college or his Pastor's school, that is what we have ended up with. 

I think the question is how do we get out of the mess that has been created?

Edited by AdamL
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Posted

I do believe IFB DID become somewhat of a "movement" when strong personalities, like those mentioned above, (Hyles, Ruckman, etc) came on the scene and drew great numbers to themselves, to fly their banners, rather than the banner of Christ. When a church is filled with people wearing buttons that say "100% Hyles", that is a movement. I don't denigrate the good those men did, rather I am saddened by the gullibility of their followers, and their protectors, who kept them firmly upon the pillars to be worshiped in place of God. When a pastor becomes untouchable by criticism, that has become a movement.

HOwever, what isn't taken into account are the thousand of small IFB churches that don't follow those men, or their ways. I began in the quick prayerism camp, but discovered too soon how worthless it was, and that it produced no discernible fruit, so we have changed.

As for the KJV controversy, that existed before there was an IFB label, during the time shortly after Westcott and Hort produced their revised Greek version-there were already some championing the KJV and the TR that W&H sought to overthrow. So no one and nothing in the IFB camp, as it were, will make a difference.  

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Posted
7 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I do believe IFB DID become somewhat of a "movement" when strong personalities, like those mentioned above, (Hyles, Ruckman, etc) came on the scene and drew great numbers to themselves, to fly their banners, rather than the banner of Christ. When a church is filled with people wearing buttons that say "100% Hyles", that is a movement. I don't denigrate the good those men did, rather I am saddened by the gullibility of their followers, and their protectors, who kept them firmly upon the pillars to be worshiped in place of God. When a pastor becomes untouchable by criticism, that has become a movement.

HOwever, what isn't taken into account are the thousand of small IFB churches that don't follow those men, or their ways. I began in the quick prayerism camp, but discovered too soon how worthless it was, and that it produced no discernible fruit, so we have changed.

As for the KJV controversy, that existed before there was an IFB label, during the time shortly after Westcott and Hort produced their revised Greek version-there were already some championing the KJV and the TR that W&H sought to overthrow. So no one and nothing in the IFB camp, as it were, will make a difference.  

Excellent synopsis IMO

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Posted
22 hours ago, AdamL said:

They are not going to listen to someone read a passage from the Bible and then scream about women wearing pants and rock music for 45 minutes never referencing the biblical passage again. You can say well then forget them we don't need them. But that is not going to work for the church in America.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"  

It was not the Lord's main plan that people come to "church" to get saved as it is with the rock-n-rollers.  Most folks get saved outside of a New Testament church and then get baptized and join a NT church to get discipled.  

An unprepared heart will reject the pants and rock-n-roll sermon but a regenerated heart will listen and search the scriptures.

By and large we cannot change the law of entropy, that everything is winding down and getting worse with time.  Generally speaking, a local church becomes more liberal as it ages until it ceases to be a NT church; of the kind that Christ built and died for during his earthly ministry.  

Women from three and four generations previous to me would have never contemplated dressing like a man while ladies today make all manner of excuses to do so.  Same with their coverings.  Our pioneering forefathers cleared a forest and made a homestead from its trees with hand tools, while living without air-conditioning or vacations to Disneyland, while fighting off murderous indians, wild animals and disease.  Most of us today, myself included, lack a constitution 1/10 as strong as what they possessed.

The Lord Jesus promised that his churches will prevail against the gates of hell.  Lord willing, I shall always be a member of one until he calls me home.    

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Install men of God in our local churches that are sound in the faith and conform to the biblical qualifications for pastors which say that pastors should be "apt to teach". By educating out future leaders in the local assembly we circumvent the process of our future leaders being influenced by so-called "movements", colleges and opinions of popular men, rather than The truth once delivered to the saints.

I know this is unpopular and some may even think it impractical and perhaps even impossible. But this is the biblical example and not above the power of God to accomplish in our churches if we really want it.

This is entirely correct.

The qualifications for a man to enter the ministry, to be the pastor in a local, New Testament, church is clearly listed in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:10 All (all as in every one to the last man) of the men (and women), in the Charismatic churches, the Catholic church, the Reformed Churches, (including Reformed Baptist), are not qualified according 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10

I do find fault with this thread as it seems that only the KJVO churches (and pastors), are at some fault. I did check out the forum, Baptist Board, that was referenced too. The members there disparage the KJV at will, use a variety of translations, and attend a variety of non-IFB churches. As usual, most of the non-KJV folks lash out at some fallen "leader," and use him to disparage KJV and Independent Baptist churches. The usual leaders are listed, Hyles, Anderson and Ruckman. And, the usual problems found in some of the IFB churches are listed. From a few pages that I read in the 'Baptist Board,' nobody made one critical remark about a non-KJVO individual. Interesting isn't it? All of the critical remarks were directed to KJVO men. 

The churches that are KJVO are about the only men, and churches, in our age that are even qualified to be in the ministry. 

As far as I am concerned, the whole issue is way out of proportion, led by (and fueled by), denominationalism, disgruntled saints, internet theologians, and internet forums. It almost seems that every time a pastor does preach on a 'hobby horse' he is food for the fodder and the congregation forgets the good that that pastor has done. If a pastor in a IFB church does not fit the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10 then he should be put out of the ministry. If he does met the qualifications, than pray harder for him when he errors, preaches too many hobby horses, talks about tithing too much for your stomach, or some other subject you disagree with him. The average IFB pastor has enemies galore who non-stop abuse him verbally on every occasion. Why add to his sorrows?

 

 

Edited by Alan
grammer & scipture
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Posted
3 hours ago, swathdiver said:

An unprepared heart will reject the pants and rock-n-roll sermon but a regenerated heart will listen and search the scriptures.

I believe there is a big difference between preaching a sermon from I Timothy chapter 2 on modest dress or Titus chapter 2 on worldliness and reading 1 or 2 verses of Scripture and then screaming about women wearing pants.  That was my point.

Both my wife and my daughter only wear skirts and dresses.  I threw away all of my rock and roll and worldly music about 8 months after I got saved.  These changes happened because through studying the Scriptures the Holy Spirit taught me and I brought these things to my wife and we studies them together and made a decision to obey. 

I am in the Navy so I do quite a bit of traveling. Whenever I am traveling for work or on vacation I find a local church to go to wherever I am.  I also have been recommended many preachers and watched and listened to sermons online. There are some very good preachers from the samplings I have had but there is also a great number that will read a passage and never reference it again and scream about their pet peeves or tell stories for 45 minutes.  That is not preaching and it is certainly not doing anything for the Body of Christ.

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Posted (edited)

Brethren

I just thought I would give you one sample (of many), of thoughts of what some of the brethren at Baptist Board think concerning the KJVO brethren:

"The current edition of the KJVO myth is based upon 7TH DAY ADVENTIST official Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, (which was written in response to a squabble within his cult, not to start a new doctrine) and its being copied and hyped by several later "authors" using modern media to promote their wares. It's just a collection of old KJVO ideas, coupled with the fault-finding in newer versions by newer generations of KJVOs. It's the same ole garbage in a newly-painted dumpster.

However, a key, cardinal question KJVOs cannot answer correctly is BY WHAT AUTHORITY do they believe KJVO. it is NOT found in the KJV itself, nor in any of its sources. As baptists, we believe SCRIPTURE is the highest authority we have on earth for all matters of faith and worship, and there's so hint of KJVO in Scripture, by the least quark of the slightest implication.

Therefore, KJVO is simply another false, extra-Scriptural man-made doctrine. But, unfortunately, as several of you have said, it'll continue on, but I believe, it'll be much-more diminished as time passes. (After all, there are still "Flat-Earthers"!)"

By the way, the above quote is from the last person who posted on the Baptist Board today (I will forbear giving you his avatar name).

Edited by Alan
grammer
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Posted
2 hours ago, AdamL said:

I believe there is a big difference between preaching a sermon from I Timothy chapter 2 on modest dress or Titus chapter 2 on worldliness and reading 1 or 2 verses of Scripture and then screaming about women wearing pants.  That was my point.

Both my wife and my daughter only wear skirts and dresses.  I threw away all of my rock and roll and worldly music about 8 months after I got saved.  These changes happened because through studying the Scriptures the Holy Spirit taught me and I brought these things to my wife and we studies them together and made a decision to obey. 

I am in the Navy so I do quite a bit of traveling. Whenever I am traveling for work or on vacation I find a local church to go to wherever I am.  I also have been recommended many preachers and watched and listened to sermons online. There are some very good preachers from the samplings I have had but there is also a great number that will read a passage and never reference it again and scream about their pet peeves or tell stories for 45 minutes.  That is not preaching and it is certainly not doing anything for the Body of Christ.

Boy I understand the Navy issue. I was fortunate to be in some places with very good churches, though I wasn't always a very good Christian; but the influiences of those churches eventually broke through. San Diego I attended, first time through, Midway Baptist church, which I honestly don't remember much about; Long Beach I attended First Baptist Church of Long Beach, my very first IFB church, where I becamse IFB and have been since. at the time the pastor was Larry Chappel (or Chapell, not sure which); I heard some time after we left he fell away but I never knew any details. In Bremerton Washington I joined Westside Baptist church, then back to San Diego, Lighthouse Baptist under Doug Fisher. That was where I answered the call to full-time ministry.

The music issue, for me, was the CCM, back in the 80's and early 90's, when of course, they were getting bigger. It got into it for a while, before there was a lot of preaching or teaching about/against it, and for a few years I rocked out to some 'Christian' rock. But over time, and just really simple observation, the Lord gave me discernment to see that they were really little different from anything the world offerred, and so I removed them from my life, as well. I'm not sure if having had some pretty good music training growing up made the difference, being from a very musical family, and my parents being formally trained singers in particularly Christian music, pre-CCM.  

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