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Pastor Scott Markle

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Pastor Scott Markle last won the day on July 16

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About Pastor Scott Markle

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    Abiding in Christ
  • Birthday 08/13/1971

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  1. Pastor Scott Markle

    Saved in 3 tenses?

    Sister Rose, First, I shall continue to pray for the settling of your mind on these matters. Remember that the Lord our God has NOT given to us "the spirit of fear," but has given to us the spirit "of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND." Remember also that it is this very Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, who bears witness with our spirit "that we are the children of God." Second, meditate much upon the promises of our Lord Jesus Christ in John 6:37-40 concerning those who come to Him in faith for salvation, and upon HIS responsibility and power to fulfill those promises in accord with the will of God the Father. Third, I recognize that there are still some outstanding questions in this discussion that I have not yet engaged. Lately I have been focused upon dealing with some false teaching in the forum. Prayerfully I shall be able to reengage this discussion sometime next week.
  2. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    However, "the abomination of desolation" about which our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:15 & Mark 13:14, our Lord HIMSELF described as "the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET," which will "stand in the holy place." Therefore, we MUST consider that information which is revealed in Daniel the prophet concerning this "abomination of desolation" in order to understand it aright. Furthermore, it MUST be something or someone that stands "IN THE HOLY PLACE" of the temple, a place "where it ought not." As such, the desolation of Jerusalem, which is the desolation of a city, is NOT equivalent to "the abomination of desolation." Could "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet," have stood "in the holy place" at or around the same time as the desolation of Jerusalem? It could have; however, the two descriptives themselves are not equivalent descriptives. In order to discern if "the abomination of desolation" event occurred at that same time, we must understand better what it is, as per Daniel's prophecy; and then we must discern if such an event literally occurred at or around 70 AD. No sir, my definition for the demonstrative pronoun "this" was precisely accurate. And by definition, there are TWO possibilities of meaning for its usage by our Lord Jesus Christ in the verses under question. In fact, those TWO possibilities are even revealed by the definition that you gave above. Let us consider: 1. Used to indicate a person, thing, idea, state, event, time, remark, ects, (POSSIBILITY #1) as present, near (POSSIBILITY #2) just mentioned or pointed out, supposed to be understood, or by way of emphasis. 2. Used to indicate one of two or more persons, things, etc., referring to the one nearer in place, time, or thought; opposed to that. First, let us understand that the secondary definition above actually is NOT applicable because it requires an indication and comparison between ONE OF TWO OR MORE. Our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT mention or compare two or more different generations; therefore, this usage for the demonstrative pronoun "this" is not the one for the context under question. Second, in the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ, He used the demonstrative pronoun "this" as an adjective to modify the noun "generation." By definition the noun "generation" indicates a group of people at a certain period of time. The TWO possibilities for our Lord's usage thereof are (1) as a reference unto the group of people in His audience at that present time UNTO whom He was speaking, or (2) as a reference unto the group of people that He just mentioned who would SEE the event of "the abomination of desolation" and who would SEE the "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars," ABOUT whom He was speaking. In the first possibility, He was indicating "this generation," you, the very group who are standing and hearing right now. In the second possibility, He was indicating "this generation," the very group about which I have just been speaking that will actually see these events unfold. So which possibility is the correct one in this context? Actually, the answer to that question requires a correct understanding concerning "the abomination of desolation," since the event of "the abomination of desolation" is that which will START a whole series of events that directly lead unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" and unto the gathering together of HIs elect "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
  3. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    1. The Lord Jesus Christ was pointing to the temple in Jerusalem that was then standing in His very day. 2. Those who will be persecuted and beaten in Jewish synagogues and before various government officials are New Testament church age preachers of the gospel. 3. Rome most certainly and literally DID surround Jerusalem and DID bring desolation to Jerusalem in 70 AD, literally destroying the temple in Jerusalem so that there literally was not one stone left standing upon another. However, in 70 AD the abomination of desolation did not stand in the temple of Jerusalem. THAT will occur when the antichrist sets himself up within the (rebuilt) temple, professing himself to be Messiah and God. 4. The word "this" is a demonstrative pronoun that grammatical points to something or someone present in the context. So, now some questions in return: 1. Are the children of Israel still falling by the edge of the sword? 2. Were the children of Israel lead away captive into all nations, and are they still scattered among those nations? 3. Is Jerusalem still being trodden down of the Gentiles? 4. Has the times (plural) of the Gentiles already been fulfilled, or are we still in the midst of the times (plural) of the Gentiles? (Note: To answer this question you might want to consider Romans 11:25-27.) 5. Are all of these things to be taken literally or idiomatically?
  4. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    That is very correct. Our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT literally return in 70 AD, which is the reason that you are so driven to view the prophetic utterances of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 as idiomatic. Because if you do not take them as idiomatic, but as literal, then you cannot claim their fulfillment at that time. And while acknowledging that such is SOMETIMES true, I provided an extensive study of the Old Testament wherein I demonstrated that clouds are also use in connection with the Lord (Jehovah) God for a number of OTHER characteristics as well. Furthermore, I demonstrated with a grammatic study that in the contexts of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, the coming of the Lord is NOT what results in the judgment, since it comes AFTER the judgment and since it BRINGS deliverance for the Lord's elect. Finally, I demonstrated that the most closely related characteristic of the Lord to the clouds within Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 is NOT His judgment, but His POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (Not reaching at all, for it is ALL right there in the inspired Word of God) And I pointed out that this claim is false based upon the emphasis to literal seeing that is referenced in all of the passages, just as it is in Acts 1:9-11. The seeing aspect of Acts 1:9-11 is that which emphasizes its literal nature, and the seeing aspect of Matthew 24:30, Mark, 13:26, and Luke 21:27. (Yes, I know that you want this seeing aspect to be "just stylistic;" but in truth it is Biblically significant.) Thus there is NO pointlessness in the reference unto literal clouds. In fact, there is great deal of Biblical point, as I have presented above. Actually, I have countered your argument with a whole series of Biblical studies, including a Biblical study of Acts 1:9-11. Furthermore, Acts 1:9-11 is NOT very different. The literal nature of the cloud in Acts 1:9 is bound up with the aspect of seeing. The prophecy of our Lord Jesus Christ literal return by a literal cloud as per Acts 1:11 is also bound up with the aspect of seeing. And ALL of the prophetic utterances of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 include the aspect of literal seeing. Finally, I have demonstrated with Bible study that although Actus 1:11 does not specifically mention judgment in relation to our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, other passages of God's Holy Word certainly DO. Well, let us see how close or far Luke 21:31 actually is in the context of Luke 21:27. Luke 21:27-31 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."
  5. Pastor Scott Markle

    Sheep's clothing....

    Amen, Brother, a HEARTY AMEN!!!!
  6. Pastor Scott Markle

    Sheep's clothing....

    (Warning: Joke in progress) So now, Brother Dave, you have to discern if I chose to "like" the comments about the passage OR the comment about a "dumb bloke."
  7. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    Again, to those in the audience who may be interested: The reason that Brother D is so driven to argue for the idiomatic nature of Matthew 24:29-20, Mark 13:24-26, and Luke 21:25-27 is not simply due to the principle of his belief concerning the definition of Biblical idioms. Rather, he is so driven because he believes that these prophecies were fulfilled in and around 70 AD, through events at that time concerning God's judgment upon the children of Israel and the city of Jerusalem. However, there was no literal occurrence of the prophetic utterances in these passages at that time. Therefore, if these prophetic utterances are to be taken literally, they could NOT have been fulfilled at that time since they did not so occur literally. However, if he takes these prophetic utterances as idiomatic, then he can adapt them and apply them unto the events of that time, and so claim their past fulfillment. Indeed, Brother D would also do the same with the great majority of the prophetic utterances within the Book of the Revelation. Now, Brother D's most foundational position will be to focus upon those phrases concerning "this generation" or concerning the "soon," or "quick," or "at hand" fulfillment of these prophecies. For him and his position, it all really does begin on that foundational ground.
  8. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    To those who may be interested: 1. It is worthy to notice the reference unto SEEING throughout the following prophecies concerning our Lord Jesus Christ's coming. Matthew 24:30 -- "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Mark 13:26 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Luke 21:27 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Acts 1:9-11 -- "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Revelation 1:7 -- "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." 2. Considering the different references to clouds in these passages and considering the specific Greek prepositions involved, we find the following: Matthew 24:30 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come UPON (Greek preposition "epi") the clouds (plural) of heaven. Mark 13:26 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come IN (Greek preposition "en") the clouds (plural). Luke 21:27 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come IN (Greek preposition "en") a cloud (singular). Revelation 1:7 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come WITH (Greek preposition "meta") clouds (plural). Acts 1:9-11 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come "IN LIKE MANNER" as the disciples had seen Him go. They saw a cloud (singular) receive (carry) Him away. Therefore, our Lord Jesus Christ will come, being carried by a cloud (singular). If we join all of this together, we understand the following: When He returns, our Lord Jesus Christ will come in and by a singular cloud, being surrounded under and around by a plurality of clouds, so as to come with a plurality of clouds. 3. Considering the phrase in Revelation 1:7, "And they also which pierced him." John 19:34 indicates that a single Roman solider pierced Jesus' side -- "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water." Psalm 22:16 also speaks about the piercing of his hands and his feet -- "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." This piercing of His hands and His feet was also accomplished by Roman soldiers. John 19:37 indicates that these piercings, especially that of His side, fulfilled an Old Testament prophecy -- "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced." The Old Testament prophecy is that of Zechariah 12:10 -- "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." This Old Testament prophecy indicates that the reference to those who pierced Him is a reference unto "the house of David" and "the inhabitants of Jerusalem." Yet Jesus was not literally, physically pierced by "the house of David" or "the inhabitants of Jerusalem," but literally, physically by Roman soldiers. So then, we may understand that the phrase in Revelation 1:7 does NOT apply literally unto the Roman soldiers, but prophetically unto "the inhabitants of Jerusalem" at the time when our Lord Jesus Christ shall return in His Second Coming. Indeed, the phrase in Revelation 1:7 refers unto the children of Israel, who will mourn with repentance at His coming.
  9. Pastor Scott Markle

    The Body of Jesus

    AWESOME, indeed, in the true, Biblical meaning of the phrase "AWE INSPIRING"!!!!!!
  10. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    If Acts 1 were reversed, it would be something like this: "Men of Galilee were looking up and they saw Jesus come into sight from out of a cloud. When Jesus had come down, the men asked Jesus if he were going to now restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus stayed in Jerusalem and presented himself alive and spent 40 days speaking about the kingdom of God." Jesus sending his angels, nor the other verses you posted, have nothing to do with a physical presence or an appearance in clouds. If "coming in the clouds" isn't an idiom, then there are no idioms in the Bible. I am not exactly sure why you presented your comments about Acts 1 in relation to that portion of my posting, since I did not reference Acts 1 at all in that portion of my posting. You had asked the question, as follows: I gave answer by quoting a series of passages that were specifically from the contexts of Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, as follows: Then I summarized what we learn from these passages, as follows: Throughout this entire answer unto your question, I did NOT make even a single reference unto Acts 1 AT ALL - Because your question asked about the contexts of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27; and Acts 1 is NOT within those contexts. On the other hand, Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 ARE the contexts for those verses. However, the fact that you chose to quote only the first verse of the series that I quoted in my posting, and chose not to make any reference unto my summary statement, causes me to wonder if you even noted and considered the Biblical information of my entire posting. If you did not, then such would reveal that you are not much of real BIBLE student - since a real BIBLE STUDENT would take whatever time necessary to read, study, and understand any portion of Scripture that is relevant to the discussion. Well, I certainly do NOT agree that these points are "reaching." Rather, I believe that they are all BIBLICALLY SIGNIFICANT. Thus I reject your attempt to trivialize them. Even so, I find your argument (that the reference unto cloud(s) is idiomatic because it lacks literal value) to be empty, which is the very reason that you have been completely unable to sway me toward your position on this matter. You have one foundational argument -- It is an idiom because it (supposedly) lack literal value. I strongly disagree with that foundational argument, as per the extensive BIBLE study of my postings. Therefore, as your foundational argument falls, so your position falls with it. 1) Acts 1:9 indicates that in His ascension our Lord Jesus Christ was received (carried) by a cloud (singular) out of the disciples' SIGHT (the reference unto physical sight is worthy of notice). Acts 1:11 indicates that our Lord Jesus Christ will come back "in like manner" as the disciples had "SEEN him go into heaven" (again, the reference unto physical sight is worthy of notice). That observable MANNER was by a CLOUD (singular). Considering the specific Greek prepositions in each passage, we learn the following: Matthew 24:30 indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ UPON (Greek preposition "epi") the clouds (plural) of heaven; Mark 13:26 indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ IN (Greek preposition "en") clouds (plural); and Luke indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ IN (Greek preposition "en") a cloud (singular). Now, either each of these three passages is talking about a different coming, because one speaks about coming upon plural clouds, whereas another speaks about coming in plural clouds, whereas another speaks about coming in a singular cloud. Or, all three passages are a legitimate BIBLICAL way for describing the SAME event, whether upon or in plural or singular cloud(s). If all three of these passages are indeed a BIBLICALLY legitimate way to describe the same event, then the reference unto a singular cloud in Acts 1:9-11 cannot simply be ruled out simply because it only reference a cloud in the singular, since Luke 21:27 also only references a cloud in the singular. (It is also worthy of notice that both the Gospel of Luke and the Book of the Acts were written by the same inspired penman.) Furthermore, it is worthy of notice that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these passages specifies that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WILL BE SEEN. (Yes, I know that you believe these references unto seeing simply to be stylistic and thus trivial; however, I consider them to be a significant signal for the literal nature of these prophetic utterances in literal fulfillment of the promise that was made in Acts 1:11.) 2) Luke 21:31 (which is a part of the context for Luke 21:27) speaks about the establishing of the KINGDOM upon the earth, and Matthew 25:31 (which is a part of the context for Matthew 24:30) speaks about our Lord Jesus Christ sitting "upon the throne of his glory" in order to judge the nations of the world. Indeed, the kingdom reign of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth most certainly is reference within these contexts. 3) Yes, I really DO think that. 4) Indeed, Daniel 7 does speak about an eternal kingdom because the kingdom reign of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth, that will begin with the thousand year reign (as per Revelation 19-20), will not be broken, but will continue into the eternal reality of the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem. 5) Note my comment for #2) above. 6) False Christs are NOT a "small problem." The spirit of antichrist is NOT a "small problem." The antichrist himself, who will himself be a false christ, will NOT be a "small problem, but will move the majority population of the whole earth to worship him, and thereby damn themselves unto the eternal torment of hell. NOT a "small problem" AT ALL. Even so , I am compelled to say that your trivialization of Biblical matters is somewhat offensive to this Bible student. No sir. I was referring to Matthew 24:30 -- "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Therefore, your comments about the context of Revelation 1:7 are not really relevant. ________________________________________________________ Now then, it has not really been my expectation throughout this discussion that I would convince you to change your position. Rather, it has been my primary intention to demonstrate unto the audience that there are definite BIBLICAL answer for your doubtful disputations. Thus at this time I now speak to the audience of this discussion -- Throughout this thread discussion between Brother D and myself (Pastor Scott Markle), one of us has engaged the discussion primarily through actual, extensive Bible study, whereas the other has engaged the discussion primarily through personal declarations. As members of the audience, it is your responsibility to discern which is which, and to recognize that one method stands upon the authority of God's own Word, whereas the other method stands upon the authority of a man's personal word.
  11. Pastor Scott Markle

    The Body of Jesus

    It laid in a tomb for three days without deterioration, then was transformed in glorious resurrection. That transformed body is the very one that our Lord Jesus Christ possesses at this very moment as He sits on the right hand of God the Father making intercession for us.
  12. Pastor Scott Markle

    Sheep's clothing....

    Indeed, if a WOLF were ever to put on sheep's clothing (sheep skin), that WOLF would know full well what was going on. He would also know full well WHY he would ever try such a tactic. The clear objective would be to get close to the sheep more easily, all for the objective to DEVOUR the sheep. SHEEP beware, and especially SHEPHERDS beware.
  13. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    1. What does the context say our Lord Jesus Christ will do when He arrives? Matthew 24:31 -- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mark 13:27 -- "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Luke 21:28 -- "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." Luke 21:31 -- "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." Matthew 24:37-41 -- "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Matthew 25:31-46 -- "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." So then, when He arrives, our Lord Jesus Christ will (1) deliver and gather His elect from across the whole world, (2) establish His kingdom reign on the earth, (3) judge all the nations for how they treated His brethren. 2. What function do the clouds serve? (1) To fulfill the return of our Lord Jesus Christ by the same manner in which He ascended (from the earth unto the heavens) (2) To be a literal representation of His sovereign power and divine glory when He returns in His Second Coming to establish His thousand year reign upon the earth (3) To be an observable connection between the sovereign power and divine glory of the Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord (Jehovah) God of the Old Testament (because He actually and bodily IS the Lord God of the Old Testament) (4) To be an observable connection with the prophetic utterance of Daniel 7:13-14 (5) To be an observable indication that the Lord Jesus Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth, but is come down out of heaven. (6) To distinguish Him from the false Christs of Matthew 24:23-26 and Mark 13:21-22. 3. How does the context discuss the travel-by-clouds statement? As a literal event that all the tribes of the earth shall literally SEE. So then, a definite relationship to the context. No idiom needed.
  14. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    Well, certainly you are entitled to hold your own opinion on the matter. However, I am compelled to hold that the "seeing" aspect of these prophetic utterances is BIBLICALLY SIGNIFICANT to communicate the LITERAL, PHYSICAL nature of that which is being prophesied. Indeed, I understand your description concerning "the nature of idioms." I just simply do NOT agree that it applies to the "cloud(s)" references in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7; for I hold that the "cloud(s)" references of these passages DO have a "connection to the context if taken literally," (1) as the return of our Lord Jesus Christ by the same manner in which He ascended (from the earth unto the heavens), (2) as a literal representation of His sovereign power and divine glory when He returns in His Second Coming to establish His thousand year reign upon the earth, (3) as an observable connection between the sovereign power and divine glory of the Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord (Jehovah) God of the Old Testament (because He actually and bodily IS the Lord God of the Old Testament), (4) as an observable connection with the prophetic utterance of Daniel 7:13-14, and (5) as an observable indication that the Lord Jesus Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth, but is come down out of heaven. As such, your continuing claim for the "idiom" nature of the prophetic utterance in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7, based upon the definitional nature of idioms, does not follow from my perspective. Your argument is as follows: The "cloud(s)" reference does not have an obvious connection to the context if taken literally; therefore, it must be an idiom. My response is as follows: The "cloud(s)" reference does INDEED have an connection to the context if taken literally; therefore, there is no need to view it as an idiom. Your reason for your argument (at least somewhat): Because you do not view the prophetic utterances of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 as references unto our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, but unto some other "coming." My reason for my response (at least somewhat): Because I DO view these prophetic utterances as references unto our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming. By the way, I did ask you in an earlier posting -- If you do not believe that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 are prophetic utterances concerning our Lord Jesus Christ's (literal, bodily) Second Coming, what event do you believe that they reference? I do not recall that you ever answered my question. (If you did, and I missed it, I do apologize.) Except that Revelation 1:7 states, "And every eye shall see HIM." (not some idiom, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself) Earlier in this discussion you acknowledged that Acts 1:9-11 does speak about our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (although you have contended that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 do not). In Acts 1:9-11 we read, "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." It appears to me that the matter of "cloud(s)" was significant enough for the angels to make reference unto it and for God the Holy Spirit to record it in the inspired Scriptures. In fact, this passage reveals the the matter of literal, observable "cloud(s)" will be the very signal of our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming OUT FROM heaven. First, in our Lord Jesus Christ's first coming He did not come with His sovereign power and divine glory on full display, because He had come primarily as the Father's servant and sacrifice. However, in our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming He most certainly will come with His sovereign power and divine glory on full display, because He will come as King of kings and Lord of lords to establish His thousand year reign over all the earth. Second, as I have indicated more than once in this discussion, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as prophesied in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 is contextually NOT "just in judgment," but is in BOTH judgment AND deliverance (redemption). First, the matter of the sun, moon, and stars is NOT symbolic, but LITERAL, and is thereby in itself a judgment upon the people of the earth. Second, you are correct that the Greek word which is translated as "after" in Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 is most commonly translated by the English preposition "with." However, this fact in itself is somewhat misleading because it does not reveal the whole truth about the case. The Greek word in this case is the Greek preposition "μετά" ("meta," Strong's #3326). When this Greek preposition is joined with an object of the preposition in the Greek genitive case, this Greek preposition means "with." However, when this Greek preposition is joined with an object of the preposition in the Greek accusative case, this Greek preposition means 'after." So then, with what Greek case is this Greek preposition joined in Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24? In both verses this Greek preposition is joined with an object of the preposition in the Greek accusative case, thus meaning "AFTER" (just as the King James translation translates it). Even so, your attempt to use the Greek as support for your position on this matter is simply false. Third, the grammatical and contextual flow of thought concerning the sequence of events proceeds as follows: (1) After that tribulation . . ., (2) And then Christ's coming . . ., (3) And then the gathering . . . As such, the great tribulation of those days and the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ most certainly ARE two distinctly different events, with one FOLLOWING the other. Actually, I have no problem with taking and unifying the prophesies of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 literally, and with seeing some (large) portions of them as still being future.
  15. Pastor Scott Markle

    How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

    Although you did not make this comment to me, I do wish to respond by giving some clarity concerning the my position of Bible study on this matter. I do NOT at all insist that a reference to clouds cannot be an idiom for judgment. In fact, within a number of passages I believe that clouds are INDEED used as an idiom for judgment. However, the position of my Bible study also holds FIRMLY that the reference to clouds in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 is NOT an idiom for judgment, but is a reference unto LITERAL clouds with a visual connection to our Lord Jesus Christ's "power and great glory" at the event of His Second Coming. ALL four of these passages specifically mention that people will SEE the Lord Jesus Christ coming "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." None of the passages that you have presented as cases wherein clouds are used as an idiom for judgment mention anything about anyone actually SEEING the Lord in His coming with that judgment. This one element itself separates these New Testament passages from your Old Testament cases. Indeed, I believe that these verses teach -- 1. Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally (personally and bodily) come. 2. Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come in and with literal clouds. 3. Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come with power and great glory. 4. Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally be seen by all at His coming "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Another point that is worthy of consideration is the ordering of events that surrounds the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27. 1. Matthew 24:15-20 & Mark 13:14-18 reference the judgment of "the abomination of desolation." 2. Matthew 24:21-28 & Mark 13:19-23 reference the judgment of "great tribulation" to start with and follow after "the abomination of desolation." 3. Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, & Luke 21:25-26 reference the judgment of the signs in the heavens to follow "immediately after the tribulation of those days." 4. Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, & Luke 21:27 reference the sight of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" in sequence then upon the completion of the judgment of the signs in the heavens. 5. Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, & Luke 21:28 reference the gathering and deliverance of the Lord's elect from across the whole earth in sequence then upon the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Now, this ordering of events actually reveals that the judgments occur BEFORE the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, not after. Furthermore, this ordering of events reveals that what will FOLLOW upon the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is DELIVERANCE for His elect. Thus even the contexts of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:27, and Luke 21:28 do NOT indicate that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" will be a signal of judgment, but rather that it will a signal of DELIVERANCE. In light of this, maybe it would be better to start calling these clouds "deliverance clouds," rather than "judgment clouds." As for myself, I would prefer to call them clouds representing SOVEREIGN POWER and DIVINE GLORY.
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