DaveW

Every day I check the church website there are junk feedback entries - between 8 and 16 at least once a day and sometimes twice. Usually they are trying to tell me how to make squillions from bitcoin, sometimes trying to sell me pharmaceuticals cheap, sometimes offering to be my wife. I also get emails from all sorts trying the same things and also trying to give me a few million that was left to them for a good cause by their great uncle who was the treasurer of some place or another. Thankfully I can just delete them, but it does take time, and it is annoying. And because they come from all sorts of different emails there is no way to block them. So part of my day is spent getting rid of useless junk I didn't ask for. 21st century problems...…..

So what DO you hope to achieve by posting about church that you have never heard of before, that will have no influence on you or your church, and that is based half the world away? I don't understand.....

You are making claims that are not proven by Bible verses, making vague references to vague passages, where you say they mean one thing, but there is no correlation of what you are saying with the vague references you give. I have been able to find the verses and passages that you refer to because I am able to use a search engine, but with each verse I identify, it doesn't say what you are suggesting. And you join passages together that have no reason to be joined together. If you were serious about stating your case, then you would at least give proper verse references for each of your claims, but it seems to me that you don't want people to find the passages you refer to in case they actually read them and find that they don't actually say what you are saying. At one point you say "Let me copy it word for word..." but then you leave off the reference, and the passage has no apparent link to anything you are saying - at least as far as I can tell. You talk about the harvest is ripe, but give no reference to it, but have you actually read Revelation 14? (verse 15 for anyone reading this, because He doesn't want to tell you). It is nto relevant to your point. Classic example of what I am talking about (but this time he at least gives a reference!): " quote from TomB: Jesus said finally in Luke 21:36 pray always that yes me counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son of man. when he comes in his glory he shall separate the sheep from the goats and place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on the left.... " Note that quoting in this way is implying that the verses are somehow joined together - he is almost trying to make it look like line 3 is a continuation from the end of line 2. THEY ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME BOOK! (Note that I am not criticising the spelling mistakes - we all do that.) The complete verse is: Luk 21:36 (36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. I don't know why he chose to leave out the "Watch ye therefore" but he did. I will however say that the verse he quoted has nothing to do with goats or sheep as far as Luke is concerned. If there is a link between these two subjects as he implies, it is not obvious from the Luke passage. In fact if you look up the sheep/goats reference you find the only reference to goats and sheep being separated to be in: Mat 25:31-33 (31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. I will note again that he refused to share that reference - I think because it has nothing to do with Luke as he is trying to imply. Folks, please don't listen to this guy until he starts to properly quote or at least reference his passages, and explain the links that he is suggesting, because he is joining things together that the Bible simply does not put together. And THEN, check his references - as you should with EVERY PERSON who presumes to teach you about the Bible.

Exactly the point - what is "big enough" for you to stop fellowshipping with someone? Or is the whole concept wrong? Just a topic for discussion...…..

What are people's thoughts over separating from fellowship with someone over doctrinal matters?

So somehow I am the bad guy for pointing out that someone is blatantly misrepresenting someone else? What Mike has accused Cloud of is simply not true. But I don't care to argue about any further. I pointed it out, and it is done. Fire away at this messenger all you like.......

And again, you are choosing to smear Cloud on this matter by suggesting that he holds pre-trib and "the fundamentals" as salvation matters - which he doesn't. Separating over a false doctrine taught does not necessarily mean that he is saying it is a salvation matter. Following the doctrinal teachings of a woman would also be a fairly weighty matter, but not necessarily a salvation issue - but I would separate from someone who follows the doctrinal teachings of a woman. You really do appear to be trying to paint Cloud with a brush that is not of his making.

This is wrong. The "Fundamentals" are not all associated with salvation and it is a gross misrepresentation for you to argue it in this way. Two offices is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation. Two ordinances is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation (how they are observed does, but not the fact there are only two). There are others but you get the picture. For you to characterise Cloud in this way is totally improper.

By the way, Brother Graham (Lydia's Dad), is a nice guy and a very accomplished musician, aside from anything else. (I don't know him well - doubt he would recognise me at all, but I have met him a few times, and been privileged to hear him play. We live about 4000km away)

I am not confusing last trumps. I pointed to the very last trump.

Revelation 18 notes "trumpeters" (shall be heard no more in thee), so we can safely surmise that up to that point trumpeters were heard, and that means that trumpets had to be around. But trumpets are not mentioned again in Scripture after that point, so the last trump was done away with just prior to Revelation 18:22. That would have to be "the last trump", surely. And the last mention of "horn" is in Revelation 17, but I don't think those ones "trumped" at all....... different kind of horn. I think have shown that the last trump was not one of the judgement trumpets at all, but some unknown bloke playing just before Revelation 18. I think I may have trumped you all. Unless of course the last trump spoken of is Donald - does he have a son to carry on the name, or is he "the last Trump"?

I certainly apologise if my response came across that way, for that was definitely not my intent. I was simply trying to point out that the Bible, not our own thoughts, should be the prime. Sorry if it came across as aggressive or mean.

As long as your thoughts come from the Bible and are in line with what the Bible says, there should be no problem. If the way you worship the Lord is in line with the Bible, there will be no problem. But if your thoughts or the way you worship the Lord is NOT in line with the Bible, wouldn't you want to have that pointed out?

I should add a couple of things: 1. My wife does far more than many Pastor's wives that I know. Everyone is different and I know several Pastor's wives with severe health issues which restrict them. They would do more if they could. But I know of some Pastor's wives who put 100% into being the best wife and mother they can be, and they cannot be derided for that either. My wife seems to find the energy to do it all - I have to tell her to rest and then it is under sufferance, which is why the accusations were so hurtful to her. 2. Whilst there are no quals that I have ever found, I do think that a Pastor's wife, being his help meet for him, should do more than your average "Mature Christian Lady". 3. The lady involved is obviously having a hard time herself right now (hurting people hurt people - it is true) and I did not give her a piece of my mind partly because I knew about some of this (and partly because I can't go giving away pieces of my mind - I have precious little left right now!). I am not even sure she knows or understands what she did. It really was better here than...…… direct to her. I needed a place to vent that would not harm her, and I do appreciate those of you who were no doubt inclined towards blasting me holding off on that course.

You know there are times when you really shouldn't answer right away? Well..... A lady who has been at our church for about two years (not a member) and comes from an eclectic church background (lots of baggage) has just called my wife to accuse her of not being available outside church, and to complain that another lady is always reporting back to the pastor (me), and a few other things. My wife just rang me upset as anything. She could not get a word in edgeways while this lady just unloaded. Now my wife feels terrible "because she has not been doing enough". My wife is wonderful but she wears things like this heavily, and so this will affect her for a while now. I want to ring this lady and give her an piece of my mind, but I fear I don't have enough mind to spare for things like this. It seems to me that loads of people don't realise that a pastor's wife is not a pastor but the help meet for the pastor, and as such is not is a position to bear this kind of thing. There you go. I THINK I have vented enough now. Thanks for listening........