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Is the KJVO "movement" dying?

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I ask this for your opinions, thoughts, and insights.

 

I sometimes post on another board and (hopefully its ok) I would like to link a thread that is going on over there. NOT so that we can all march over there and say "huzzah! you're wrong!" but rather I would like to have this discussion on here. I will probably be starting another thread I would like to get some more opinions on that is in tandem to this thread but worthy of a secondary set of thought patterns.

 

Without futher ado this is the link:

Click me! 

So the thread there is pretty simple: 

Apparently DBS is "Fractured" due to Riplingers divorces (although Dean burgeon has been a TR-Only group not  KJVO group but anyway)
Ruckman has passed away
Steven Anderson is a menace (which I don't disagree with)
Etc..

Do you see the KJB issue still in full force or not?
 

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1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I also take exception to the idea that IFB is a "movement". Each local assembly is Independent, therefore cannot be considered a "movement." "Movements" come about when God's people look outside of their local assemblies and follow men because of their "strong personalities."

I apologise if the term "ifb movement" is offensive to you.  I certainly agree that that is not the way it is supposed to be at all. However when the vast majority of pastors of IFB churches are influenced and taught through the Jack Hyles method of ministry, through the college or his Pastor's school, that is what we have ended up with. 

I think the question is how do we get out of the mess that has been created?

Edited by AdamL
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29 minutes ago, AdamL said:

I apologise if the term "ifb movement" is offensive to you.  I certainly agree that that is not the way it is supposed to be at all. However when the vast majority of pastors of IFB churches are influenced and taught through the Jack Hyles method of ministry, through the college or his Pastor's school, that is what we have ended up with. 

I think the question is how do we get out if the mess that has been created?

You have not offended me Bro. Adam. The exception I took was with the phrase "Movement", which is in widespread use today by many

As to your question regarding how we go about getting out of the mess that has been created, I would offer a solution that has been with us from the beginning. This consists of not allowing ourselves or our church members to be influenced by forces outside of our local assemblies.

Install men of God in our local churches that are sound in the faith and conform to the biblical qualifications for pastors which say that pastors should be "apt to teach". By educating out future leaders in the local assembly we circumvent the process of our future leaders being influenced by so-called "movements", colleges and opinions of popular men, rather than The truth once delivered to the saints.

I know this is unpopular and some may even think it impractical and perhaps even impossible. But this is the biblical example and not above the power of God to accomplish in our churches if we really want it.

I was very fortunate in being able to be educated by an old school Baptist missionary pastor who was not only "apt to teach", by was on a scale of actually being a bible scholar. Even his sermons could be and were used by him as a teaching tool.

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I do believe IFB DID become somewhat of a "movement" when strong personalities, like those mentioned above, (Hyles, Ruckman, etc) came on the scene and drew great numbers to themselves, to fly their banners, rather than the banner of Christ. When a church is filled with people wearing buttons that say "100% Hyles", that is a movement. I don't denigrate the good those men did, rather I am saddened by the gullibility of their followers, and their protectors, who kept them firmly upon the pillars to be worshiped in place of God. When a pastor becomes untouchable by criticism, that has become a movement.

HOwever, what isn't taken into account are the thousand of small IFB churches that don't follow those men, or their ways. I began in the quick prayerism camp, but discovered too soon how worthless it was, and that it produced no discernible fruit, so we have changed.

As for the KJV controversy, that existed before there was an IFB label, during the time shortly after Westcott and Hort produced their revised Greek version-there were already some championing the KJV and the TR that W&H sought to overthrow. So no one and nothing in the IFB camp, as it were, will make a difference.  

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7 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I do believe IFB DID become somewhat of a "movement" when strong personalities, like those mentioned above, (Hyles, Ruckman, etc) came on the scene and drew great numbers to themselves, to fly their banners, rather than the banner of Christ. When a church is filled with people wearing buttons that say "100% Hyles", that is a movement. I don't denigrate the good those men did, rather I am saddened by the gullibility of their followers, and their protectors, who kept them firmly upon the pillars to be worshiped in place of God. When a pastor becomes untouchable by criticism, that has become a movement.

HOwever, what isn't taken into account are the thousand of small IFB churches that don't follow those men, or their ways. I began in the quick prayerism camp, but discovered too soon how worthless it was, and that it produced no discernible fruit, so we have changed.

As for the KJV controversy, that existed before there was an IFB label, during the time shortly after Westcott and Hort produced their revised Greek version-there were already some championing the KJV and the TR that W&H sought to overthrow. So no one and nothing in the IFB camp, as it were, will make a difference.  

Excellent synopsis IMO

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22 hours ago, AdamL said:

They are not going to listen to someone read a passage from the Bible and then scream about women wearing pants and rock music for 45 minutes never referencing the biblical passage again. You can say well then forget them we don't need them. But that is not going to work for the church in America.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"  

It was not the Lord's main plan that people come to "church" to get saved as it is with the rock-n-rollers.  Most folks get saved outside of a New Testament church and then get baptized and join a NT church to get discipled.  

An unprepared heart will reject the pants and rock-n-roll sermon but a regenerated heart will listen and search the scriptures.

By and large we cannot change the law of entropy, that everything is winding down and getting worse with time.  Generally speaking, a local church becomes more liberal as it ages until it ceases to be a NT church; of the kind that Christ built and died for during his earthly ministry.  

Women from three and four generations previous to me would have never contemplated dressing like a man while ladies today make all manner of excuses to do so.  Same with their coverings.  Our pioneering forefathers cleared a forest and made a homestead from its trees with hand tools, while living without air-conditioning or vacations to Disneyland, while fighting off murderous indians, wild animals and disease.  Most of us today, myself included, lack a constitution 1/10 as strong as what they possessed.

The Lord Jesus promised that his churches will prevail against the gates of hell.  Lord willing, I shall always be a member of one until he calls me home.    

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20 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Install men of God in our local churches that are sound in the faith and conform to the biblical qualifications for pastors which say that pastors should be "apt to teach". By educating out future leaders in the local assembly we circumvent the process of our future leaders being influenced by so-called "movements", colleges and opinions of popular men, rather than The truth once delivered to the saints.

I know this is unpopular and some may even think it impractical and perhaps even impossible. But this is the biblical example and not above the power of God to accomplish in our churches if we really want it.

This is entirely correct.

The qualifications for a man to enter the ministry, to be the pastor in a local, New Testament, church is clearly listed in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:10 All (all as in every one to the last man) of the men (and women), in the Charismatic churches, the Catholic church, the Reformed Churches, (including Reformed Baptist), are not qualified according 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10

I do find fault with this thread as it seems that only the KJVO churches (and pastors), are at some fault. I did check out the forum, Baptist Board, that was referenced too. The members there disparage the KJV at will, use a variety of translations, and attend a variety of non-IFB churches. As usual, most of the non-KJV folks lash out at some fallen "leader," and use him to disparage KJV and Independent Baptist churches. The usual leaders are listed, Hyles, Anderson and Ruckman. And, the usual problems found in some of the IFB churches are listed. From a few pages that I read in the 'Baptist Board,' nobody made one critical remark about a non-KJVO individual. Interesting isn't it? All of the critical remarks were directed to KJVO men. 

The churches that are KJVO are about the only men, and churches, in our age that are even qualified to be in the ministry. 

As far as I am concerned, the whole issue is way out of proportion, led by (and fueled by), denominationalism, disgruntled saints, internet theologians, and internet forums. It almost seems that every time a pastor does preach on a 'hobby horse' he is food for the fodder and the congregation forgets the good that that pastor has done. If a pastor in a IFB church does not fit the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10 then he should be put out of the ministry. If he does met the qualifications, than pray harder for him when he errors, preaches too many hobby horses, talks about tithing too much for your stomach, or some other subject you disagree with him. The average IFB pastor has enemies galore who non-stop abuse him verbally on every occasion. Why add to his sorrows?

 

 

Edited by Alan
grammer & scipture

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3 hours ago, swathdiver said:

An unprepared heart will reject the pants and rock-n-roll sermon but a regenerated heart will listen and search the scriptures.

I believe there is a big difference between preaching a sermon from I Timothy chapter 2 on modest dress or Titus chapter 2 on worldliness and reading 1 or 2 verses of Scripture and then screaming about women wearing pants.  That was my point.

Both my wife and my daughter only wear skirts and dresses.  I threw away all of my rock and roll and worldly music about 8 months after I got saved.  These changes happened because through studying the Scriptures the Holy Spirit taught me and I brought these things to my wife and we studies them together and made a decision to obey. 

I am in the Navy so I do quite a bit of traveling. Whenever I am traveling for work or on vacation I find a local church to go to wherever I am.  I also have been recommended many preachers and watched and listened to sermons online. There are some very good preachers from the samplings I have had but there is also a great number that will read a passage and never reference it again and scream about their pet peeves or tell stories for 45 minutes.  That is not preaching and it is certainly not doing anything for the Body of Christ.

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Brethren

I just thought I would give you one sample (of many), of thoughts of what some of the brethren at Baptist Board think concerning the KJVO brethren:

"The current edition of the KJVO myth is based upon 7TH DAY ADVENTIST official Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, (which was written in response to a squabble within his cult, not to start a new doctrine) and its being copied and hyped by several later "authors" using modern media to promote their wares. It's just a collection of old KJVO ideas, coupled with the fault-finding in newer versions by newer generations of KJVOs. It's the same ole garbage in a newly-painted dumpster.

However, a key, cardinal question KJVOs cannot answer correctly is BY WHAT AUTHORITY do they believe KJVO. it is NOT found in the KJV itself, nor in any of its sources. As baptists, we believe SCRIPTURE is the highest authority we have on earth for all matters of faith and worship, and there's so hint of KJVO in Scripture, by the least quark of the slightest implication.

Therefore, KJVO is simply another false, extra-Scriptural man-made doctrine. But, unfortunately, as several of you have said, it'll continue on, but I believe, it'll be much-more diminished as time passes. (After all, there are still "Flat-Earthers"!)"

By the way, the above quote is from the last person who posted on the Baptist Board today (I will forbear giving you his avatar name).

Edited by Alan
grammer

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2 hours ago, AdamL said:

I believe there is a big difference between preaching a sermon from I Timothy chapter 2 on modest dress or Titus chapter 2 on worldliness and reading 1 or 2 verses of Scripture and then screaming about women wearing pants.  That was my point.

Both my wife and my daughter only wear skirts and dresses.  I threw away all of my rock and roll and worldly music about 8 months after I got saved.  These changes happened because through studying the Scriptures the Holy Spirit taught me and I brought these things to my wife and we studies them together and made a decision to obey. 

I am in the Navy so I do quite a bit of traveling. Whenever I am traveling for work or on vacation I find a local church to go to wherever I am.  I also have been recommended many preachers and watched and listened to sermons online. There are some very good preachers from the samplings I have had but there is also a great number that will read a passage and never reference it again and scream about their pet peeves or tell stories for 45 minutes.  That is not preaching and it is certainly not doing anything for the Body of Christ.

Boy I understand the Navy issue. I was fortunate to be in some places with very good churches, though I wasn't always a very good Christian; but the influiences of those churches eventually broke through. San Diego I attended, first time through, Midway Baptist church, which I honestly don't remember much about; Long Beach I attended First Baptist Church of Long Beach, my very first IFB church, where I becamse IFB and have been since. at the time the pastor was Larry Chappel (or Chapell, not sure which); I heard some time after we left he fell away but I never knew any details. In Bremerton Washington I joined Westside Baptist church, then back to San Diego, Lighthouse Baptist under Doug Fisher. That was where I answered the call to full-time ministry.

The music issue, for me, was the CCM, back in the 80's and early 90's, when of course, they were getting bigger. It got into it for a while, before there was a lot of preaching or teaching about/against it, and for a few years I rocked out to some 'Christian' rock. But over time, and just really simple observation, the Lord gave me discernment to see that they were really little different from anything the world offerred, and so I removed them from my life, as well. I'm not sure if having had some pretty good music training growing up made the difference, being from a very musical family, and my parents being formally trained singers in particularly Christian music, pre-CCM.  

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On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:14 AM, AdamL said:

I may get ostracized for this but I am going to share my opinion anyway...

Not from me. I will say that I believe Tozer nailed the underlying reason, link attached...

THE WANING AUTHORITY OF CHRIST IN THE CHURCHES
(last message before his death) A. W. Tozer, May 1963

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On 6/13/2017 at 7:53 AM, Alan said:

Brethren

I just thought I would give you one sample (of many), of thoughts of what some of the brethren at Baptist Board think concerning the KJVO brethren:

"The current edition of the KJVO myth is based upon 7TH DAY ADVENTIST official Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, (which was written in response to a squabble within his cult, not to start a new doctrine) and its being copied and hyped by several later "authors" using modern media to promote their wares. It's just a collection of old KJVO ideas, coupled with the fault-finding in newer versions by newer generations of KJVOs. It's the same ole garbage in a newly-painted dumpster.

However, a key, cardinal question KJVOs cannot answer correctly is BY WHAT AUTHORITY do they believe KJVO. it is NOT found in the KJV itself, nor in any of its sources. As baptists, we believe SCRIPTURE is the highest authority we have on earth for all matters of faith and worship, and there's so hint of KJVO in Scripture, by the least quark of the slightest implication.

Therefore, KJVO is simply another false, extra-Scriptural man-made doctrine. But, unfortunately, as several of you have said, it'll continue on, but I believe, it'll be much-more diminished as time passes. (After all, there are still "Flat-Earthers"!)"

By the way, the above quote is from the last person who posted on the Baptist Board today (I will forbear giving you his avatar name).

Baptist Board is infested with a bunch of backsliders, heretics, and apostates. So much calvinism over on that site, I’ve clashed with people on that site on just about everything from music to KJO, to dispenationalism... pretty much any solid bible teaching will be argued with over on that site. 

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I would agree that KJVO and OKJV are both rooted within the IFB churches. The false churches have moved away from the Word of God as Revelation 3 says they would. Church today are about entertainment and feel good, rather than solid Bible Preaching. As IFB churches fall away from the Word of God, they cease being "Good" churches.

There are 100 IFB churches in a 30 min radius of me. None preach the Word of God. Most use the KJV when they use Scripture, but that is far from what good churches were 30 years ago.

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19 hours ago, Pastorj said:

I would agree that KJVO and OKJV are both rooted within the IFB churches. The false churches have moved away from the Word of God as Revelation 3 says they would. Church today are about entertainment and feel good, rather than solid Bible Preaching. As IFB churches fall away from the Word of God, they cease being "Good" churches.

There are 100 IFB churches in a 30 min radius of me. None preach the Word of God. Most use the KJV when they use Scripture, but that is far from what good churches were 30 years ago.

They cease being biblical churches as well.  Last May my children and I had the pleasure of meeting with the saints and hearing the Word faithfully preached at Berean Baptist Church over in Winston-Salem, not too far from you.  

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On 12/22/2017 at 9:34 AM, Pastorj said:

 

There are 100 IFB churches in a 30 min radius of me. None preach the Word of God. Most use the KJV when they use Scripture, but that is far from what good churches were 30 years ago.

I find this interesting, especially in North Carolina (Virginia native here). However, imagine our surprise to find a real, bible-preaching, bible-believing, soulwinning church in "sin city" of all places. My husband and I left the "hippy-skippy" feel-good, NIV (among others) using "megachurch". The Lord led my husband to think about where we attend church right at a year ago now. A year ago, we were still pretty lost, not connected to a community, spiritually comatose. One year later, we are connected, spiritually alive, my husband is saved. Don't ever doubt what God can do...ever! If someone had told me this would happen, I'd have told them they were clear out of their minds. 

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On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 8:13 AM, swathdiver said:

Last May my children and I had the pleasure of meeting with the saints and hearing the Word faithfully preached at Berean Baptist Church over in Winston-Salem, not too far from you.  

I have not visited Berean. We visited over 50 churches in Winston, but that one was south of where we lived at the time.

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:48 AM, Saved41199 said:

I find this interesting, especially in North Carolina (Virginia native here).

I have been shocked since moving to NC in 2010. A lot of the churches follow what I call "Camp style" preaching. This style has no substance and rarely opens the Bible. When they do, it is just to grab a verse that sounds good, but is almost always taken out of context.

Much of what is said is not "Unbiblical", but it does not meat Paul's definition of Preaching. Preaching must include "The Word".

A perfect example was this last Sunday. The pastor spoke about Christmas for 40 minutes. Nothing he said was wrong. But he quoted 1 verse and the passage he used did not support the 4 points he had. I am completely disgusted with what I have found for preaching in NC.

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I would say I don't believe it, but knowing what it's like to starve to death going to church every Sunday...I do believe it. Might be why I'm in favor of a solid seminary education for a preacher before he starts preaching and attempting to feed the flock. Those poor folks are starving to death and don't even know it. (in the interest of full disclosure, I have one more elective class to take to finally finish my degree in Biblical Studies from Liberty University). 

It isn't easy to find a church that "serves a full meal" every Sunday. At our church, Sunday morning is like "brunch"...on the light side but satisfying. Sunday night is "dinner"...a full meal, may feel a little queasy after "eating" so much. Wednesday night is "supper"...maybe not as filling as dinner but takes care of the hunger but good until Sunday morning. 

These were listed in Statesville from http://fundamental.org/fundamental/churches/index.php3?action=listchurchesinstate&statename=North Carolina

Calvary Baptist Church Dr. Chris Haizlip Statesville
Southview Baptist Church Walter Wagner Statesville
Elmwood First Baptist Rodney G. McAllister Statesville
Harvest Baptist Church Dr. Donald Gant Statesville
Command Baptist C hurch Tony Fox Statesville
Temple Baptist Church Randall Mitchell Statesville

These were listed in Winston Salem

Berean Baptist Church Dr. Ronnie Baity Winston Salem
Woodland Baptist Church 336-969-2088 Winston Salem
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem
Vernon Forest Baptist Church Pastor Coats Winston-Salem
Missions Baptist Church David Keaton Winston-Salem
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem

 

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12 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

I would say I don't believe it, but knowing what it's like to starve to death going to church every Sunday...I do believe it. Might be why I'm in favor of a solid seminary education for a preacher before he starts preaching and attempting to feed the flock. Those poor folks are starving to death and don't even know it. (in the interest of full disclosure, I have one more elective class to take to finally finish my degree in Biblical Studies from Liberty University). 

It isn't easy to find a church that "serves a full meal" every Sunday. At our church, Sunday morning is like "brunch"...on the light side but satisfying. Sunday night is "dinner"...a full meal, may feel a little queasy after "eating" so much. Wednesday night is "supper"...maybe not as filling as dinner but takes care of the hunger but good until Sunday morning. 

These were listed in Statesville from http://fundamental.org/fundamental/churches/index.php3?action=listchurchesinstate&statename=North Carolina

Calvary Baptist Church Dr. Chris Haizlip Statesville - Camp Style Preaching - One Message preached was entitled Amazing Grace according to Isaac Newton - Preached out of the hymnal
Southview Baptist Church Walter Wagner Statesville - Unfriendliest church in the whole area - Pastor is no longer there. Assistant constantly took passages out of context
Elmwood First Baptist Rodney G. McAllister Statesville - Haven't visited this one as they have no website that I could find.
Harvest Baptist Church Dr. Donald Gant Statesville - Church has 130 people, 100+ from bus ministry.
Command Baptist C hurch Tony Fox Statesville - Never heard of this one
Temple Baptist Church Randall Mitchell Statesville - Street screaming is required of it's members - Much like Peter Ruckman's group in Florida

These were listed in Winston Salem

Berean Baptist Church Dr. Ronnie Baity Winston Salem - I didn't go to this as it was south of us about the same distance as the church we attended.
Woodland Baptist Church 336-969-2088 Winston Salem - Very Liberal church
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem -
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem - Never heard of this one.
Vernon Forest Baptist Church Pastor Coats Winston-Salem - I visited this church, but it was 7 years ago. We didn't go back
Missions Baptist Church David Keaton Winston-Salem - I visited this church, but it was 7 years ago. We didn't go back
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem - Visited church a few years ago - Nice church, but messages were camp style
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem

 

I don't agree with your meal analysis of preaching and neither does the Word of God.

Preaching is not a light brunch. Preaching is exposing the Word of God to those that are there so that the Holy Spirit can work in the lives of people. When we serve a light brunch, we are simply trying to entertain people to get them to come back. I have visited churches on Sunday Morning, Night and Wednesday nights and quite frankly what I have heard is either unbiblical, liberal or just a bunch of jokes and stories.

Out of over 100 churches between Statesville and Winston, I can count on 1 hand the number of churches that had Biblical preaching.

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8 hours ago, Pastorj said:

I don't agree with your meal analysis of preaching and neither does the Word of God.

I was trying (and failing) to make an analogy of what our church is like. Sunday morning is often the time we get the most visitors so the sermon isn't quite as "heavy". This is a typical Sunday morning sermon https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=111917133539

Sunday night https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=115172159229

Wednesday night https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=118172217531

They're different sermons geared to the different folks gathered. Sunday morning is a little lighter, Sunday night is a good dinner and Wednesday night is a full supper...Thing is, church isn't supposed to be the only time for the word...there's a certain responsibility for the individual Christian to spend his own time reading/studying/learning. It's not all on the pastor. I can take you to the fanciest buffet here in sin city and if you choose not to eat, there's not a darn thing I can do to force you...same with folks in church. They can go every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, the preacher can be one of the most serious, his sermons can be a PhD thesis every time and if folks don't want to eat, they won't. I can take you to Pho #2 (not a great restaurant) and if you're hungry enough, you'll find a way to make a meal out of it. Stop putting it all on the preacher...it's not all on him. You can sit, play with your phone, day dream and it doesn't matter how great the sermon is...you won't get a thing out of it. 

My pastor can be quite entertaining...he's funny, he's exuberant while he's preaching, he smiles a lot...are those hallmarks of a crummy preacher? 

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