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Ukulelemike

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Ukulelemike last won the day on March 17

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About Ukulelemike

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    Just a Servant
  • Birthday November 11

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    Male
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    NE California
  • Denomination
    Independent Fundamental Baptist
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  1. When dealing with the difference between 'God sovereignly decided, before the foundations of time, who would be saved and who would go to hell', and then commands them ALL to be saved or go to hell' as opposed to 'whosoever will', THAT is doctrine-in fact, it covers a few doctrines, like the sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ, whether man has free will to choose to follow or reject, and such. That is doctrine.
  2. Paypal can do payments into a specified account. I recently set that up, through the church's official email account. Our situation is virtually identical to yours, having to do about 90 miles round trip, or 120 miles the other way, to get to a bank. I can't say how well it works, as no one has put anything in, though I used Paypal to sell something online and the money was transferred in about 5 minutes, so in general it seems to work.
  3. Ukulelemike

    Social Distancing

    That's what I preached on last Sunday, my first week going streaming for the first time, so we were...separated!
  4. Ukulelemike

    Social Distancing

    I have noticed through the years, that a lot of Baptists become experts at social distancing as soon as they're baptized.
  5. I have been recently dealing quite a bit with a fellow who is convinced that believers today must observe the whole Torah, keep the Sabbath, and that, oddly, the new covenant has not yet begun. Recently I gave him this, (which of course was merely scoffed at). But for those of us here that believe the KJV Bible is written as it is for a reason, it ought to give us, at least, some pause for thought. We all know here, I am sure, why the KJV uses language that was already considered archaic when it was written, like the usage of Ye, You, Thee, Thy, Thou, and Thine: They indicate plural or singular language, which is plain in Hebrew and Greek, but not so much in modern English, (even 400 years ago), so these terms were used to make more plain the meanings. They become very important in such verses as, when Jesus speaks to Nicodemas and says "Verily, verily I say unto THEE, YE must be born again" In modern English, we lost the meaning completely, when Jesus says '...I say unto YOU, YOU must be born again' Here, who is Jesus speaking to, and to whom does He refer needing to be born again? Just Nicodemas? But in the KJV it is clear, "...I say unto thee, (Nicodemas, singular), ye, (everyone, plural) must be born again" That being said, (follow me now), read how the Lord gives the commandments at Sinai: 20 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Now, notice, God is speaking to all the people: why doesn't the translator use the words 'You" or "Ye" to show a plural sense In the Lord's words? "Ye shall have no other gods before me"? Why? Because God is speaking to them as a singular people, a singular nation, meaning these laws and commands are not given for ALL nations, but for ONE nation: Israel, the children of Jacob. Period. Not even for all the children of Abraham, just Jacob. Not all the children of Isaac, just Jacob. A single people. Therefore, NONE of it was given for those who would be believers, especially of the Gentile nations, after Christ-He is the END of the law for righteousness to them that believe. So the idea that ANY part of it, except for that repeated and carried on in the New Covenant, is silly. As well, after the law was given, Moses took the blood of a sacrifice and sprinkled the blood upon the book of the law and upon the people, and made a covenant at Sinai between national Israel and God, to keep the law. It was between them and God, and of course we know they broke it, time and again, almost immediately! So we are not under any portion of that OT law of Sinai, but are under a new and better covenant, sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ, not the bull at Sinai. And that includes the Sabbath, for they are all part and parcel of the same thing.
  6. KJV: Preserved, without error, but not "inspired' or re-inspired. Preservation means it doesn't need to be inspired again, because it is preserved.
  7. The great thing about Jesus' forgiveness and grace, is that the ENTIRE work has already been finished, long before you ever knew the Saviour. On the cross, Jesus paid for ALL sin, and when you came to Him in repentance of your sin, and sought to be forgiven and saved, ALL that forgiveness was applied to ALL your sin, past, present and future. But let's deal with your prayer issue for a moment, since that seems at the center of your concern. I suspect it isn't quite as bad as you believe it to be, because the Lord IS faithful to answer prayer. Now, why might He NOT answer prayer? Well, (and mind you, I make no judgments on you because I know nothing of your life), the Lord won't answer our prayers if we are dwelling in sin, if there is unrepented-of sin in our lives. David says "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:" So it is important that we see any sin dealt with as soon as we know it is there. And will God forgive every one, even if we go to Him time and again? Absolutely! "If we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin..." Remember, Jesus told Peter and His disciples that if our brother sins against us and repents, we are to forgive them, even to 70x7 times, each day! If we take that literally, it is 490 times each day, we are to forgive one another, so if the Lord expects us sinners to be that forgiving, how much MORE does HE forgive? Second, if a man doesn't treat his wife right, the Lord won't hear his prayers. 1Pe 3:7 "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." So if there are issues in your marriage you're not seeing to in a godly manner, it will hinder your prayers. Finally, if we ask outside of His will, we can depend that it will not be answered, or not in the affirmative. And of course, make sure your salvation! Are you certain you're saved? What is your salvation testimony? There are many who believe themselves to be saved, who are trusting the wrong things, and are not saved. So make sure there first. As for a job, it may be you will need to go somewhere where there is a job available. Or maybe the Lord has a ministry He wants you for, and you haven't submitted to His will on that, but are running away, maybe thinking yourself not worthy, not ready-I was there, and yes, my jobs suffered when I ran. When you are asking from God, consider first, What are you doing for God? Again, none of this is meant to be critical, judgmental or anything, because I don't know anything about your life-I am just going to basic biblical principles and hoping maybe something helps.
  8. Okay, so when I posted the articles concerning David Cloud, the Australian church, and the issue of the timing of the rapture, I did not intend for it to go where it did, though out of experience, I should have seen that happening. My intention was just to put forth whether the timing of the rapture should be considered a fundamental of the faith, and a matter of separation and heresy. Yes, it was a disagreement with David Cloud's position, but it was not meant in any ways to disparage him and his ministry, a ministry that I have used often, and do to this day. But yes, it was a disagreement. That said, I wish to apologize to those who saw my comments as being disparaging to him, or to them, and also apologize for allowing myself to run back into the argument over the particulars; such wasn't my intention, and those whom I have offended or angered, I apologize-there are some subjects that I know, from my own feelings about them, that I ought to leave unsaid, especially as a moderator. So consider the subject closed and done. If anyone wishes to speak more in detail on it, or has further argument with me, please let me know privately and we can do it as brethren in Christ. Again, I am sorry for the unintended contention I began.
  9. But the whole idea is that the Holy Spirit must be removed from earth before the Antichrist can be freed to work. It has nothing to do with what YOU say or don't say, that is the standard belief-the holy Spirit is removed, or 'taken out of the way', then the Antichrist appears-but how then does He continue to work in believers, if that work is what 'lets', and must end before the Antichrist can do his activities?
  10. I have never held that 2Thes 2:7 is necessarily speaking of the Holy Ghost, and His being taken out of the way being the rapture-again, this is where I say there is a lot of assumption related to all these positions. There isn't a shred of evidence this is the Holy Ghost, and in fact, there is evidence that He will be present and active during the great tribulation. When the 144,000 male virgin Jew witnesses are sealed, what are they sealed with? Now scripturally, I can say with confidence that there is only ONE sealer, " And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30) "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Eph 1:13) If it is God the Holy Spirit that seals, who or what will seal the believers during the tribulation, and thus, protect them? We have precedent in scripture that the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken out of the way. As well, to speak of God the Spirit as being 'taken out of the way', that sounds like something that would be done to a subordinate, not to God. Will God be taken out of the way? Also, in Daniel, we see that it is Michael that is tasked with fighting Satan, that Michael could easily be he that letteth, and, being a subordinate, he might be seen to be 'taken out of the way', as in receiving an order to step aside. All assumptions, all conjectures, but no more so than the alternative.
  11. Nothing more than usual-expect people to wash their hands, stay home if sick. But in a community of 800, 40 miles from town one way, 60 miles the other way, not too concerned about it here. Take your vitamins, keep clean, stay home if sick and stop letting the spirit of fear rule-is God's hand shortened, that it cannot save from the Corona virus?
  12. That there are no signs to be fulfilled, I don't know that I agree with you. When the Thessalonian church was concerned that Christ had already raptured the church and they had missed out, Paul gave them some assurance, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2Thes 2:1-4) Here, Paul tells them not to be concerned because that day won't come EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed...seem that he is telling them that the rapture, the coming of Christ, won't happen until AFTER the falling away and the revealing of the Beast. I guess our question here would be, What is "the day of Christ"? Is that the rapture and resurrection, or the full second coming after the 7 years when He comes to reign? If we go by his reassurances to them in 1Thes 4, which specifically concerns the rapture, and 1Thes 5, which also speaks of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, which we know refers to the rapture, (where he also says believers wont be taken unaware because we are children of the day and the light), then contextually, this was their concern and this is what he is speaking of here in 2Thes 2, as well. So first must come a falling away and the revealing of the Beast. Sounds like Paul is giving them two signs that need yet to be fulfilled. But maybe I'm completely wrong. Please give me your understanding of it.
  13. Well, seeing as how it is a church that none of us have heard of, why has it become such an issue to make public by Bro. Cloud? I understand the need to go public with those who have a wide-reaching influence, but they don't seem quite that influential. I did, by the way, go to their website, and read their side of the issue, and they don't seem particularly antagonistic to him, though they return the charge by Cloud of being aggressive in the emails exchanged, and honestly, from what they said, they don't seem to have taken that specific position, but in doing group studies, the question came up, and I think they sought to him for some clarification, as a part of study, not so much as a straight-up disagreement and argument. It may, perhaps, be due to Bro. Cloud's tendency to sometimes not go far enough into correspondences to him, due to a very busy schedule. I know by experience, when my wife emailed him a question-no charge, no argument, but asking him a question, and he never emailed her back, but quoted her in another article, a very small part of her comment, as being one of his crazier critics, completely mischaracterizing her email. Again, he may just be so busy he just can't put his full attention to such things, and as such can miss points, or come across harsher than he intends. In fact, he really doesn't take many personal correspondences due to that, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. I prefer to use his books and resources, as they are generally very good and profitable for study and teaching, and keep from personal emails to him. But yes, as mentioned above, the question lies in, Is the subject of the timing such a major issue that it is both considered heresy to take the post-trib stand, or even to consider it? It is a dangerous thing to reach a point that ew assume we have it all figured out. I am not tossed about by every wind of doctrine, but neither do I think I am so perfect in my understanding that I won't accept a challenge to what I believe and delve deeper to study it out. I have done that recently with a fellow who believes we must keep the law of Sinai, and while I know that isn't the case, I took his challenge to study it out, and came back to where I had been, even stronger and with more evidence to back it, though he refuses to accept any of it and rejects any NT argument against OT matters. Sad, but that's why contentions about the law are unprofitable and vain.
  14. I wanted to post this, sort of as an addendum to what I spoke on in another post on David Cloud and timing of the rapture. It is not done as contention, just to delve a little deeper into the subject, if there is interest in discussion. Good-natured, kind, Christian conversation. On February 26, I published “Another Church Enters the Post-Tribulational Wilderness.” It is a warning about the very sad and disturbing change in doctrine at Grace Baptist Bible Church of Newcastle, NSW. From the first time I heard that the preachers at Grace had rejected the Pre-tribulational Rapture and were wandering in the tribulational wilderness, I had hoped and prayed that they stop going down that road. Tribulational wilderness is an apt term. To reject the Pre-tribulational Rapture is to believe that New Testament saints will go through at least part of the tribulation, if not all of it. The views of Mid-tribulation Rapture, Pre-wrath Rapture, and Post-tribulation Rapture land one in a wilderness of uncertainty. It is impossible to interpret prophecy in a consist literal manner and hold any of these views; one must spiritualize at least some of the prophecies, which I refuse to do. These men are showing every sign of being true heretics, so I am repeating my warning of February 26 and adding some relevant information. I do not believe that their heresies will end with a rejection of the Pre-tribulational Rapture, because there is something strange going on at a heart level, which has surprised me and many others who have tried to help them. It is sad that this issue would come to the fore among fundamental Baptist churches in Australia at a time when they need to be focused on standing against the invasion of a contemporary evangelical philosophy (“judge not, lighten up, don’t be so strict, keep the message positive, don’t be divisive, don’t warn, be cool, treat music and dress as non-issues, downplay separation, broaden the tent”). Our prayer about this matter. God is on the throne and all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. We are praying that, and believing that, this issue will stir up many preachers to be more serious in their study of prophecy, more diligent in teaching and preaching it, more zealous about the imminency of Christ’s return, more studious and passionate in all areas of the ministry, more aggressively protective of the flocks, and more careful about church membership and discipline. We are praying that many churches will experience spiritual revival because of this. I am very encouraged. As for me, I am very encouraged these days. The Lord is so very good. It is so wonderful to be able to face old age in Christ and in God’s will and in the sure hope of eternal life. This is the gift of grace that the Son of God purchased with His own blood. One day I will die, but I will be more alive than I have ever been. By God’s grace, we have kept our hands to the plow in our foreign missionary work since we first began it in 1979 when we were 30-year-old kids, and today we are seeing great fruit in souls saved (turn around and go the other way, changed from the inside out conversions), in the spiritual growth of the church members, in the surrender of young people to God’s perfect will and the renunciation of their secular dreams, and in true unity. The church split a couple of years ago was very hard, but it has proven to be a great blessing in the purifying of the congregation to have the Acts 2:42 church that we have longed for and labored for. The Judas preachers stole more than $40,000 and half the members, but the church has remained self-supporting, the offerings have increased, and the membership has doubled in size. The Judas preachers have threatened to harm us in various ways, but by God’s grace all they have been able to do is huff and puff and gradually disappear like a salted slug. Their boomerang missed and is coming back on their own heads. New doors are opening for preaching the gospel with the potential for starting new churches. We are seeing excellent fruit from the preaching and teaching in many places by the writing ministry. I receive communications from preachers and teachers every day, thanking me for the materials, many of them very fervent in expression. God put Way of Life Literature on my heart as a new Christian in about 1974, one day when I was reading Proverbs 6:23, and God is so richly blessing this ministry these days that I can’t keep up with the blessings. I have very good health for the time being, though one never knows about tomorrow. I had a major heart attack in 2018 and nearly died. Many were sad about that, but others were glad. But there was no permanent heart damage and I’m doing my prayer power walk most days, two miles in a half hour. Old age is like the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building, and as he passed the 90th floor, someone heard him say, “So far, so good.” I am accomplishing more than I ever have, preaching and teaching in the weekly church services, in our full-time Bible college, and in the multi-day Bible conferences we have two or three times a year, gospel tract distribution, gospel Bible studies, writing new Bible courses, writing verse-by-verse commentaries, not to speak of daily FBIS articles and the weekly Friday Church News Notes and the monthly O Timothy magazine, traveling on research and preaching trips, enjoying times with my wife in our very comfy easy chairs (not recliners) and on dates, enjoying hearing from my kids and grandkids, watching (online) a 14-year-old and a 13-year-old grandkid get baptized recently, having shown good evidence of salvation for some time. It doesn’t get any better that this. I am living out the reality of Psalm 37:4, “Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.” Now, back to this business at Grace Baptist Bible Church. They have endless questions. One man of God who tried to help one of the preachers at Grace said to me, “We supported ------ for years in prayer and gifts but cannot continue our gifts. I am corresponding with him but find that he only raises questions. He is not able to expound scripture, just attack and question the truth. He airs his ignorance.” Endless questioning is a mark of a heretic. They are deceiving. I don’t know any softer way to characterize what they are doing. They are saying and implying that no one loves them enough to help them, that everyone has quickly rejected them, that no one will answer their questions, that Independent Baptists are mean-spirited, etc. The truth is that some men have spent a lot of time trying to help them. I spent time trying to help them, even though they are pretending that I didn’t. I have a record of all of that communication. When they sloughed off everything of substance I had to say and misconstrued what I was trying to say, turning it against me, I decided that it would be a waste of time to answer further questions. And why should I have to give a personal answer to questions when the answers are already in print and have been print for more than 100 years? There are no new questions and no new answers on this issue. These men were educated at Sydney Baptist Bible College and had two years of Bible prophecy under a capable man of God. They should have been 2 Timothy 2:15 students and settled the right division of God’s Word then, before being ordained and before starting churches. The should have understood and settled the fundamental fact that the timing of the Rapture is not decided by any one verse; it is decided by an understanding of prophecy as a whole, interpreted from a literal standpoint. It is decided by a right understanding of Israel and the Church. It is decided by a right understanding of the imminency of Christ’s return as taught by the apostles in their epistles to the churches. It is decided by a right understanding of the day of the Lord and of prophecies such as Jeremiah 30:7 and Daniel 12:1 and God’s promise that church-age saints will be saved from the wrath to come. It is decided by a right understanding of Daniel’s great 70 Week prophecy. I have the names on file of seven other preachers who have graciously spent time with them on this issue, and there are others, as well. Some men have spent entire days with them. Many have talked with them on the phone. Some of these preachers are very well educated in Bible prophecy. I have copies of some of the communications. One Australian preacher told me, “Your experience with them resonates with mine too. Their attitude toward me has shifted even though I gave them hours of time I needed elsewhere. They claim that you never answered Joshua's 'rebuttal' of your article, so I did, and they haven't answered it.” Another Australian preacher, who has focused on prophetic studies for many decades, has tried to help one of the preachers at Grace and even invited that preacher to spend a week at his home dealing with the Scriptures. Does this sound like no one has tried to help them and no one has answered their questions? Lying is a mark of a heretic. They don’t receive the truth. The fact is that all of their questions have been answered, and the doctrine of the Pre-tribulational Rapture has been demonstrated to them, but they aren’t receiving the truth. Endless questioning combined with a refusal to receive the truth is the mark of a heretic. They are trying to hide behind a smokescreen. The sole issue here is their doctrine. Everything else is a smokescreen. Instead of owning up to the fact that they have rejected the doctrine of the Pre-tribulational Rapture and letting the chips fall where they may, they are raising all sorts of other issues. They are using the cheap tactic of attacking the messenger instead of dealing with the message. They are using the cheap tactic of claiming that someone wouldn’t talk to them on the phone. I have been in the ministry for going on 50 years, and there is a time to talk on the phone or face to face, and there is a time to deal with issues by other methods. There is a time to have a written or recorded record of the conversation. There is a time when an issue should be dealt with in writing. In a phone conversation, the parties don’t have opportunity to pray about things and weigh things and research things. Such things are best done in writing. Either way, the phone thing is a cheap smokescreen. If I didn’t talk on the phone with them, many others did. The fundamental issue is that they have heard the Pre-tribulational Rapture and have rejected it. That they are wandering in a wilderness of not knowing the timing of the Rapture is neither here nor there. That’s where you end up when you reject the Pre-tribulational Rapture. I thank Joshua Koura for manning up and stating plainly to me that he no longer believes the Pre-tribulational Rapture. When I asked Pastor Charlie, “Do you believe in a Pre-tribulational Rapture,” he refused to answer, but that is the answer. He is the founding pastor, and he has allowed this mess to develop and to continue without shutting it down. Fudging and hiding behind smokescreens and not being candid about what you believe is the mark of a heretic. They have become of strange spirit and hateful and slanderous. They are half my age, but they have ordered me around as if I were just another of their young associates (all the while pretending to be humble and, oh, so loving). They have demanded that I answer every question to their satisfaction, that I turn aside from what I am doing and spend a lot of time dealing with this issue, that I talk on the phone with them, etc. They have rebuked me and publicly tried to injure my reputation for not jumping through their hoops and dancing to their tune. They have charged those who use my material as blind followers of “the Baptist pope,” which is absolutely ridiculous, as the Lord knows. In fact, I have been called that before, but it is a vicious slander. I don’t want anyone to follow me, and to my knowledge, no one does. I have described my credentials at times, but I have not puffed myself up. In fact, I humbled myself before those young preachers as an Agur. “Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy” (Proverbs 30:2-3). Anyone who knows me knows that I am strictly a “Bible as sole authority preacher,” and I teach God’s people to test everything and every preacher by Scripture. That is one of my theme songs. I absolutely despise preachers who require unquestioning loyalty of people and who hold themselves up as the authority. In fact, they have slandered pretty much everyone who has tried to help them and have slandered those who have left the church over this mess. If they renounce their heresy, I will re-examine this issue, but until then I will obey God’s Word, as follows: “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself” (Titus 3:9-11). The terms “heretic” and “heresy” refer to a willful choosing of error. The Greek hairetikos, translated “heresy” in Titus 3:10, is from hairtezo, which is translated “chosen” in Mt. 12:18. A heretic has a heart problem, not an ignorance problem. Heresy is a work of the flesh (Ga. 5:20). An individual can be sincerely ignorant of sound doctrine, but the evidence that he is not a heretic will be clear when he responds to the sound teaching of God’s Word and rejects error. A heretic will not receive the truth. Biblical heresies come in two categories. First, there are “damnable heresies” (2 Pe. 2:1), which are heresies that bring eternal judgment. In this verse, Peter gives an example of a damnable heresy: “denying the Lord that bought them.” Any false teaching about the Person of Jesus Christ or His substitutionary atonement brings damnation because this is a false christ and a false gospel. But heresies are not limited to fundamental errors. In 1 Corinthians 11:19, hairesis is used for error pertaining to the practice of the Lord’s Supper. A true brother in Christ can “walk disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received,” and he is to be noted and separated from (2 Th. 3:6-15). For more about heretics, see the report “Dealing with Heretics” at the Way of Life web site.
  15. I will surely do that. Thanks, brother. And yes, before we hit the three month mark I will probably send off an early letter just as a reminder, see if something is bugging them, anything they'd like to talk about. Problem is, neither of them are much good at opening up with anything negative. Just not talkers. So that makes it tough to get to the meat of the issue.

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