wretched

Here is a different perspective perhaps: Yes it does mean that. I believe it has to do with the change of ages at the rapture. I believe those under Grace through faith without sight (church age) with the Holy Spirit's presence to convict the world of sin, righteousness and Judgment to come had their chance with the Spirit's conviction (which they spurned all their lives and basically made fun of true believers to some degree or another). Think about it in this way. The Spirit and the Word have been at work with the Gospel for 2000 years, the industrialized world has had it for generations and by enlarge have rejected it. As the clock ticks the industrialized world becomes exceedingly reprobate. These reprobates have heard and rejected the Christ and Gospel of the Bible. As God did with Pharaoh, He will do with these further hardening their reprobate hearts since they made their choice already. This prospect is terrifying to me when thinking of lost loved ones and neighbors, etc...because I know they have heard it clearly and I believe strongly that we are in the last generation or very close to it, of the church age. After the end of the church age (catching away) the way God deals with man changes. it will be as it was in the OT with signs, wonders, miracles, etc. once again as clearly and specifically described throughout Revelation. The basis for this theory is of course the Bible but at a more strategic viewpoint. Our age is clearly the only period in History where the Spirit was poured out and indwelling to all believers and convicting the world. During the seven year tribulation, those of the industrialized world who by chance have not heard the Gospel clearly will believe and refuse the mark. These tribulation saints in the industrialized parts of the world will suffer the most I would think with having two choices, refuse the mark and die or refuse the mark by successfully hiding and surviving off the grid. There will be no regeneration as we know it during the tribulation, nor eternal security through the Spirit's sealing (HE won't be here to regenerate or seal). Nothing in Revelation or other NT references indicates otherwise. Just as it was in the OT, the Spirit was not poured out over all flesh and present to convict the world as He is during our current age. He will leave earth with the Church at the Rapture. So these saints will have to keep their faith, refusing the mark until the end. However, not all of them will die, some will successfully hide I would suspect but Revelation indicates that multitudes will be slain for Christ, refusing the mark. Those who have never heard the Gospel prior to the catching away will be predominantly those of the third world, communist strongholds (to some extent), places with government or culturally enforced religions like India, etc.. These are the masses to which the Gospel has been effectively blocked by principalities. I suspect a majority of these people will believe and will survive the tribulation in belief due to the ministry of the 144k. I believe the beast's reach will not be firmly held in these geographical areas since much of it is not "connected" electronically with the industrialized world. I believe the focus of the 2 witnesses will be direct contradiction to the beast, the image of the beast and the false prophet. These two will reprove and rebuke the industrialized (reprobate) population who worship or concede to the beast. On a side note, the recent exposition of social media like facebook, google, twitter, etc is very enlightening to me. I say this because these companies who work for the beast now (although unwittingly at this point) have amassed all the data they need from the industrialized population. Because of our internet habits they know who has guns, who is conservative and certainly who is Christ's simply based on our browsing and posting habits which these companies track. They don't need government records, the beast will have everything he needs to enforce the new laws which abolish first the 2nd amendment and then the 1st amendment and then the real persecution will begin. Yes, although the US is not named in Scripture and if we truly are in the last generation of the church age, then the US as it stands now will be the key influencer over the rest of the industrialized world and will play a deciding role in the beast's acceptance. Europe is gone as previously known so that union, though at the center of the beast's political power simply does not carry credible influence with the rest of the industrialized world like the US does. Interesting subject. Put no stock in thinking that our lost loved ones will get another chance.....they probably won't. I believe the catching away marks the end of an age, just like physical death has meant the end of that individuals chances to reconcile with God (God's Way which is the only Way that counts). The catching away marks the end of chances for those who rejected Christ previously when God gave HIS WAY, HIS TRUTH and HIS LIFE to the world for 2 millennia affording every chance and every Spiritual help for them to believe. I believe like when the door of the ark shut, so does the door of Grace by faith without sight (the Blessed folks Jesus referred to as having NOT seen, yet believed) Of course like everyone's thoughts on prophecy I am no where near dogmatic on this. I just am leaning heavily that way at this point.

Are you talking about this:

A necessary rebuke IMO

I understand you sister, Would you agree that the Word could be in our hearts now if we wanted it to? We could know God now as well as we know ourselves if we would only saturate ourselves in His Word now. I have to disagree on the Written Word's absence in Heaven however. His Written Word is definitely in Heaven and will remain into eternity with Him. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Of course the Word of God will be their Judge (all 66 Books)), God the Father has left all Judgment to the Son and who is the Son again? The Word.) But before that He will also use the Word of God out His mouth. He will speak it and His Words will smite the nations. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. The Word is far more powerful than most believers realize and no Ma'am, not the paper and ink...the Words (every one of them). Can you agree with this?

Matthew 24:35 and several other similar: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Christ is the Word and the Word is Christ. If you know His Word, you know Him as you know yourself. This cannot be achieved by men's published books, it can only be achieved by saturation in God's Word. You must consume yourself with listening to Him just like most the professing consume themselves in temporal, self-interests.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This verse in the context of the passage is not referring to Heaven at all but that we can know everything God wants us to know now because He gave it all to us in His Word. I believe this indicates that we can know God as well as we know ourselves if we cared enough to saturate ourselves in His Word like we saturate ourselves in self-interests. The context is dealing with how God delivered His Word pre-Bible completion and post-Bible completion. The key is not reliance on men any longer but reliance on the poured out Spirit of God to teach His Word. The Holy Spirit combined with God's complete Revelation to man eliminates any intermediary "prophesy, revelation and interpretation" from men. Interpretation of this context is critical in what road a believer takes with Apostolic Succession. Either Apostolic succession ended with the deaths of the Apostles in total, or all of it is still currently for us. If we believe Apostolic succession continues through this day and age then we support the one false doctrine that has perpetuated ALL false doctrine. That is the elevation of man equal to Scripture and is nicolaitan doctrine. If men did not elevate themselves into something more than an equal believer (as Christ instructed) then people would not follow their teachings without verification simply because they believe the nonsense that these men are called above others and have some kind of special "anointing" above others. After 4000 years, God's people still demand kings to rule over them, this is the doctrine God hates.

I didn't quote your whole post brother but agree with every word and was about to write/ask something similar.

That is an interesting idea.

One possibility since the greater context of this passage is dealing with the flood, is that these giants clearly noted in this passage as a separate thought very well could be a reference to dinosaurs, mammoths and other giant creatures which God decided not to include on the Ark nor to continue on earth after the flood. Job references strange beasts that would match the fossil remains of these creatures and there is plenty of undisputed, physical evidence that these creatures did exist on earth. It certainly was no ice age that killed them off.

I have a challenge for you. I recommend you hold off on pursuing a degree for one year. In one year if you still feel the same way then go for it but I can 100% guarantee you (if you follow the instructions) that you will not feel the same way in one year. First order a set of KJV Bible CDs of the New Testament narrated by Alexander Scourby. (Ebay or Amazon) These can also be listened to on youtube if you prefer. Once the CDs arrive, spend the same amount of time you would as a full time student in college (4-6 hours) a day secluded without distraction, listening with prayers for the Spirit's understanding and an open heart to the Spirit. Start with the Gospels in order, then repeat at least 5 times before you move on. This will not take much time if you stick to a schedule as mentioned, you will understand the Old Testament at this point like you never imagined. Then go onto Acts and repeat it 5 times, then the remainder of the NT in order but hold off on Revelation until you have gone through all Epistles 5 times. Revelation will be far more understandable for you by this time. Once completed repeat the entire program again in the same order over and over. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This verse will take on a entirely new meaning to you and you will have faith expediential to before. This plan will save you money and effort, and most of all you will understand God without the traditions and opinions of men. Something theology from any college can never give you. Just a friendly recommendation I give to anyone, whether a student or not. Of course the times can be modified and listening while commuting is far more soothing than anything else if you have a long commute.

Well that is worth posting over. Congratulations Rosie!!!

I think the problem is much more basic and systemic than this. Never mind the perceived state of these institutions because none are Scriptural. The entire practice of higher learning institutions in which "young" men are trained to "pastor other" churches came from the RCC and later mimicked by protestant denominations. Not one jot nor tittle is Scriptural IMO.

Giving assurance of salvation via the promises of God typically consists of out of context promissory verses and is part of the same heresy as easy believism IMO, here is my rationale: God says that no one can pronounce another person saved. I Cor 3 debunks the heresies perpetrated by the charismatics, emerging "churches" and the big numbers IFB "preachers" of the recent past: One plants, one waters but only God gives the increase. The planters and waterers are nothing and not to be revered or even mentioned. If the Scripture was followed we would never have heard the names of these big shot charlatans with their empirical "churches" (none of which is Scriptural). The heretics claim their own increases, that is what easy believism is all about - Pride by way of false numbers. God says that the planters and waterers are to be considered nothing in this activity, only the Word and the Spirit of God is. The same applies to the current practice of giving false assurances. I call them false assurances because the contexts of these passages always indicate evidence by demonstration of saving faith. To repeat these out of context passages to persons who have demonstrated little to no evidence of the new birth is heresy IMO. Giving assurances is the second part of the easy believism heresy. They go hand in hand and depend on each other to close the shady "sale" and report the bogus numbers to each other (God certainly isn't listening). The whole concept is Scripturally ludicrous if you really study it. God says the Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God (Rom 8:13-17). That is His job, not ours. Nowhere in Scripture does the Lord tell us specifically to give assurance of salvation to anyone. That assurance can only come from the new birth and the Spirit of God. According to Scripture IMO, pronouncing someone saved is just as unscriptural as giving someone assurances. I suspect in every case where these assurances seemed to stick, it wasn't these assurances at work at all. It was the Spirit and the new birth that probably did finally occur after the ground was properly ploughed, seeded and watered, hence the removal of doubt in their minds although they repeated a prayer sometime in the past (sometimes years in the past). We think our unscriptural assurances did it for them, when what really did it was conviction in the heart by the Spirit after hearing much more of God's Word. In reality they were regenerated when no one was looking. I know typically it is believed that when a person says the right words, that is the moment of regeneration but that is most times not the truth. Remember only God knows the exact moment of regeneration (John 3:8). Neither the saved person nor any "preacher" has a clue until after the fact evidenced by a new heart with new desires that will want to continue following the Lord. If that is not demonstrated, then there is no Scriptural doubt that they are still dead in trespasses and sins.

Dave, Good thread IMO and a good argument. I think I understand where you are coming from now and I think you are correct in that a church is always an assembly regardless of how mentioned. I am addressing two very related birds with this post if you don't mind. Both the local church for us during our 70 years down here and all born again believers making up the body of Christ throughout the age, are Scriptural. Our business is the local church. God's business is the whole church from the beginning which will assemble in Heaven later on. So IMO this makes your argument very logical and it can be stated accurately that the body of Christ is not His complete or assembled Church "yet". But rather the mentions of His Church are in future tense and reference that time when it is complete and assembled in Heaven, including Heb 12 which is also applied in future tense because it is obvious that the audience nor Paul had yet "physically come unto the mount Sion" but that his name is written there and he and all to who that passage applies to will come later throughout the age until all are present. Then and only then is His Church Assembled. The Lord is outside of time so He refers to us all as His church (past, present and future) but we are still inside the limits of time and can only refer to our physical assemblies with any authority. There is no doubt that the catholic perversion of the universal church lead by a pope is unscriptural. Just like every counterfeit aspect of Catholicism. Protestants and Charismatics follow the same errors in relation to I Cor 13. They believe Apostle type characters still exist in some more modern form like popery and archbishops and denominational presidents, etc. Some of these groups even refer to their leaders as "apostle". So in mind-boggling error they think a central person is to have oversight of many churches as it was in Acts initially. What is not understood by these false groups is that in Acts, once these churches (that they personally planted) were later confirmed by the same Apostles (and their own disciples), they then became independent churches. They of course can't understand that the Spiritual authority and powers given the Apostles died with them after the completion of God's Perfect Revelation to man and the presence of indwelling Spirit. Not just Apostolic authority but also Apostolic gifts breathed on the Apostles by the Lord personally including all gifts of healings, tongues, prophesies, signs, wonders and miracles. Some of these gifts were passed onto the Apostle's direct disciples also but all ended at the end of the first century once the Book of Revelation was finished in written form. All of these early gifts were considered child's play by God once the Perfect combination of His Spirit guiding believers in His Completed Word was come (that which is Perfect) I Cor 13. God has no need for Apostles to provide oversight anymore we have the "perfect" and more "excellent" way now. His Word is complete so there will be no more Revelation/prophesy from Him to anyone since AD96 and all the way up until the Comforter is taken out of the way with His remaining Church members. Nor is there any need for Spiritual gifts, signs, tongues or any other "sight" type early evidences for the unbelievers. The Spirit is here now to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment to come based solely on God's Completed, Written Word. Since I Cor 13 and 14 are purposely ignored by these groups, all sorts of nonsense that mocks God and His Word goes on in this age. Man worship like Popery and denominational central offices/presidents (doctrine of the nicolaitans) comes from this purposeful misinterpretation, as does all charismania like dreams and visions and audible voices and near death (see the light) nonsense concocted in the mind that always needs to see a sign or proof of God. God clearly puts no man anyone else in this age (Matt 23). He will speak to no one audibly in this age. All of His revelation to us is already revealed and Perfect being explained by His Spirit. Out of ignorance these groups believe that we not only have God's Complete Revelation and God's Holy Spirit poured out over all flesh who convicts, regenerates, seals and indwells. but they also redundantly retain the temporary: Apostolic authority along with all the gifts clearly designated by God as temporary, IE..."in part" until the Perfect combination of the Spirit and His Word is come. The entire idea of seeking signs in this age is not only unscriptural but also makes a foolish mockery of God and His true Gospel which can only be received in pure faith without sight of any type. In addition, Spiritual growth can only come from true faith and true faith can only come from "hearing His written Word". If a person seeks signs long enough, their subconscious minds will give provide them. Aided of course by spicy foods, hormonal imbalances, medications or rem-sleep dreams sometimes brought on by anesthesia . The ignorance is in the seeking of such signs. Except the sign of Jonas the prophet of course (Christ's Sacrifice for us). I believe false religions share the same misunderstandings of these passages and this is where some of their distinguishing falsehoods come from, whether man-worship (universal church) or extra revelation, signs/miracles in this age. These confusions are all directly related IMO.

Well, you are absolutely correct in this one area. Most of the world is dead in trespasses and sins, heading straight to hell, including the lost religious (Christian science, scientologists, theistic evolutionists, etc.). The attempt to regulate God to their natural understanding equals religion, never Bible Christianity. Bible Christianity is being regenerated by the Spirit of God through true heart belief in the Gospel, turning from their natural understanding to the absolute truths of God's Word. Once this true belief occurs, the person is now born again and their eyes and hears are finally opened to the Truth and they can understand it for the first time. The key attitude to look for when looking for true regenerating belief is the difference between embracing God's Truth (after belief) or attempting to mix His Truth with men's lies to make them more palatable for the natural man to swallow. This is you my friend. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. I Cor 2:14 To each their own belief is your testimony and this testimony shall result in the lake of fire. Only when we follow God's Way, will we see life eternal in Heaven. Imagine your little child telling you that you are wrong and they and their other little children are right and will see, understand and do things their own way. Would you reward their failures to succeed? Godly sorrow leads us to repentance.... Have you ever felt true sorrow for your sins (realizing that hell awaits you) and true belief in Christ's Gospel? Until you turn from your own understanding and turn to the True God and His Only Truth clearly described in His Word, you cannot Receive Him as your own Savior. Believe your own understanding or throw away those thoughts (like all true Bible Christians have done) and believe God at His Word before it is too late for you my friend. I am and I am sure others here are praying for you.