144,000 in Revelation Literal or symbolic?

[Pastor Matt]

I'm coming across more and more people that believe that the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is not a literal number but rather symbolic. Pretty much because John says he "heard"  rather than saw 144,000 and how then mentions a multitude that can't be counted. 

I have more to add, but just want to see what everyone hear thinks first. Is 144,000 a literal or symbolic number?

[John Young]

41 minutes ago, PastorMatt said:

Pretty much because John says he "heard"  rather than saw 140,000 and how then mentions a multitude that can't be counted. 

Literal virgin males on earth were sealed. 12,000 from each tribe, just as it was told to him. The Multitude he saw in heaven was a different group of slaughtered saints that came to heaven after the 144,000 were sealed on earth. The 144,00 are sealed on earth then go into the wilderness, where they are protected from death, for the last half of the tribulation. They don't go to heaven after being sealed but are gathered back to Jerusalem after the tribulation week is over.

Edited August 13, 2021 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

49 minutes ago, PastorMatt said:

Is 144,000 a literal or symbolic number?

Literal.

13 minutes ago, John Young said:

Literal virgin males on earth were sealed. 12,000 from each tribe, just as it was told to him. The Multitude he saw in heaven was a different group of slaughtered saints that came to heaven after the 144,000 were sealed on earth. 

Agreed.

14 minutes ago, John Young said:

The 144,00 are sealed on earth then go into the wilderness, where they are protected from death, for the last half of the tribulation. They don't go to heaven after being sealed but are gathered back to Jerusalem after the tribulation week is over.

At this point, I disagree.  Rather, I would hold that all of the 144,000 experience martyrdom during the second half of the seven year Tribulation Period, since it appears to me that they all are standing in heaven with the Lamb before the throne of God in Revelation 14:1-5.

[HappyChristian]

Literal.

[SureWord]

Literal. 

[BrotherTony]

I would have to say it's literal. I don't see symbolism in what is written there.

[Invicta]

If we go back to the early church writers we find that they believed it was  symbolic the 144,000 were Christian virgins who didn't get involved with pagans and false Christian's.

[SureWord]

28 minutes ago, Invicta said:

If we go back to the early church writers we find that they believed it was  symbolic the 144,000 were Christian virgins who didn't get involved with pagans and false Christian's.

You'll find they believed that the Book of Enoch, Jubilees and Jasher were inspired too. Gotta watch out for those church fathers.

[Invicta]

On 8/15/2021 at 11:10 PM, SureWord said:

You'll find they believed that the Book of Enoch, Jubilees and Jasher were inspired too. Gotta watch out for those church fathers.

Have yo got a reference for that?

[BrotherTony]

14 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Have yo got a reference for that?

Tertullian was one of the church fathers that wanted Enoch included....I don't have access right at this time to all of my studies on this subject, but there are others. Since some of the Apostles had quoted from Jasher, Enoch and I believe the Jubilees as well, Tertullian believed they should have been canonized.

[SureWord]

5 hours ago, Invicta said:

Have yo got a reference for that?

Have you got a nickel?

5 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Tertullian was one of the church fathers that wanted Enoch included....I don't have access right at this time to all of my studies on this subject, but there are others. Since some of the Apostles had quoted from Jasher, Enoch and I believe the Jubilees as well, Tertullian believed they should have been canonized.

Origen too comes to mind.

[Oseas]

Revelation 12:v.13&15-16

¹³ And when the Dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

15 - And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

¹⁶ And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Comments:

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman... Compare with Revelation 16:v.13

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the Dragon cast out of his mouth.   -earth here is Israel-144K , they will help the woman against Satan - the Dragon 

[Jerry]

A friend of mine listens to the messages by Robert Breaker - He and his kind seem to be hyperdispensationalists, adding to the Bible, teaching different gospels of salvation in different time periods (including several different gospels from the time of Christ's birth, to the time of His death, to the early church in Acts 1-2, to later on in the book of Acts - yowza!).

That being said, he told me the other day that the 144,000 (according to Breaker) were the babies that Herod killed around the birth of Jesus Christ (brought back to life, and they never defiled themselves sexually because they not on the earth after that point in time). Aside from the fact that these are specifically stated in Revelation to be 12,000 male virgins from each tribe of Israel - there was no way there were thousands and thousands of babies killed in and around Jerusalem during that time (plus, what about all female children being killed - I'm sure the soldiers didn't stop their slaughter just because of the sex of the baby - though I could be wrong on that).

It is amazing where someone can go if they loose from the moorings of Scripture! What about Hebrews 9:27? What about the fact that these 1-2 two year olds if resurrected during the tribulation period would still be babies.

LIteral Jewish people, 144,000 male virgin Jews, separated and sealed by the Lord and saved during those seven years, protected, and then probably martyred (can't remember everything Revelation says about them right now).

[Danny Carlton]

On 8/13/2021 at 7:52 AM, PastorMatt said:

I'm coming across more and more people that believe that the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is not a literal number but rather symbolic. Pretty much because John says he "heard"  rather than saw 144,000 and how then mentions a multitude that can't be counted. 

I have more to add, but just want to see what everyone hear thinks first. Is 144,000 a literal or symbolic number?

Literal. In fact as I listen to Jews like Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, Don Feder, etc. I see very much how a group of 144,000 Orthodox Jews, realizing that Christianity was right all along, convert and devote their lives to Evangelizing the earth in the midst of a despotic, anti-Christian regime. And an event like the Rapture could logically be the catalyst for such a mass conversion of Christian-friendly Jews like we see today.

[Invicta]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:33 PM, Danny Carlton said:

Literal. In fact as I listen to Jews like Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, Don Feder, etc. I see very much how a group of 144,000 Orthodox Jews, realizing that Christianity was right all along, convert and devote their lives to Evangelizing the earth in the midst of a despotic, anti-Christian regime. And an event like the Rapture could logically be the catalyst for such a mass conversion of Christian-friendly Jews like we see today.

The early Christian writers said it is symbolic of Christians, representing either the complete church or 144,000 Christian virgins.  They also said the temple in Revelation represents the church.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Invicta
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