Kjvo And Original Languages

[Arbo]

 But the Gentiles were never given the law that was for Israel Mal 4:4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

 

 

I doubt that the Ten Commandments only applies to the Jews.

[heartstrings]

My question may sound antagonistic, but it is not. 

 

If the King James version of Scriptures is the "perfect version for the English-speaking peoples" as some claim, why does it seem that those same people often refer to the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic languages when explaining a belief? 

 

The best example of this that I can think of is the debate about wine and grape juice. 

Most often, I turn to an English dictionary which includes word origin documentation. By doing this, I can better determine how the English word was originally used before being subjected to "semantic drift" over time.

[John81]

All but one of the Ten Commandments were set forth in the NT for Christians to abide by.

[candlelight]

Candle, I know of plenty not just from CC but baptist as well that have gotten mixed up in the Judaism movement or Yeshua Movement as some call it.  Many of these got mixed up in the "Way of the Master" by Ray Comfort which was taught at some well known Baptist churches and schools as well.  Ray is the Lordship Salvation theology creator, he uses the Law to prove to Gentiles they are sinners.  But the Gentiles were never given the law that was for Israel Mal 4:4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

 

Once they had gone through that silliness of being saved by admitting they violated God's law (which never applied to them anyway) they now are on their way to OBey the law they were not OBeying before.  This is the effect of trying to convince someone they are a sinner by giving them the law (though the law will reveal sin).

 

After that many of them then migrate to these Yeshua Movement churches, where they wrongly blend all the teachings of the law of OT and NT to apply to the church even Sabbath, even though Paul never taught anything about sabbath day OBservance.

 

Once they go down that path it is nearly impossible to get them back on living by faith as they were saved.  Most of these will judge us as being lost and in sin not keeping the sabbath and not winning people with the true gospel of Christ.  It is truly a shame.

 

I am talking about a woman who went to Calvary Chappel, in her hippie days, and turned to Judaism.  I'm not talking about the Hebrew Roots movement, or the Messianic Jews, AVBB.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I doubt that the Ten Commandments only applies to the Jews.

Paul restated 9 of the ten commandments for the church.  The only one he did not restate and teach was Sabbath OBservance.

 

However there were many other laws, statues, judgements, precepts, ordinances, commandments, ways, testimonies, and words that God commanded them to follow beyond the 10 commandments.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I am talking about a woman who went to Calvary Chappel, in her hippie days, and turned to Judaism.  I'm not talking about the Hebrew Roots movement, or the Messianic Jews, AVBB.

sorry I must have got a plank in my eye.  Never the less something led to her converting to Judaism and it wont save just like many of the other groups.  and these groups are claiming they are turned to Judaism as their religion claiming to be true Christians.  I have had some long discussions with one of the leaders of a group in California he is now going to have multiple wives.  It is messed up for sure.

[TheSword]

sword go a head and slip those pages off to me in a PM or email them from my profile

 

Will do.

[John81]

But let us, who are of the day, be sOBer, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:8

[swathdiver]

Calvary teaches salvation by grace alone on the finished work of Christ.

 

They teach right division of scripture.

 

The baptize by immersion.

 

They don't allow women to teach men or female pastors

 

Their only prOBlem is being lax on dress and music which has brought in more trouble than good.  since chuck's death last year a lot of these churches that claim calvary chapel have gone to the nut case fringe.

 

 

Not quite.  They believe and teach that the Holy Ghost baptizes them later (after good works) to do good works.  They also have secret after glow rooms for the real crazies to jump around to the satanic music and writhe around on the floor under smoke and concert lights.  

 

They yoke with Catholics and most other heretics, even their statements of faith uphold Catholic council proclamations.  As you know the sodomite Frisbee got them off the ground with the music.  

 

Have you ever looked up on their Jumbotron to see the nights scripture verses and all of them have different letters inside the parenthesis?  So who is the authority in that "church"?  They do indeed let women preach from the pulpit while condemning women pastors.

 

They believe in nearly the same way you do with regards to dividing the bible, taking the simple and making it complex and wrong.

 

They have been on this path for as long as I can remember, Smith's passing has nothing to do with it.

 

Having said that, from day one, Calvary Chapel was NEVER a New Testament Church.  It's man-made through and through.

[Musician4God1611]

If you're willing to honestly engage the issue, please allow me to begin that explanation with an example question:

 

1 Cor 13:1 - Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

 

Consider first that Pentecostals/Charismatics like use to verse to assert Paul spoke in an angelic language to support their practice of speaking in tongues. What does "Though" mean in this instance? The context gives equal weight to both of the English definitions as a conjuction: "in spite of the fact" and "even if". Which one is correct and why?

 

Another example from this same passage...What does "charity" mean? The English definitions cover a wide range and the context does not demand one over the other. Please explain your answer.

Just got back on and saw your response. Give me a while to look it over and I will answer.

[Ukulelemike]

If you're willing to honestly engage the issue, please allow me to begin that explanation with an example question:

 

1 Cor 13:1 - Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

 

Consider first that Pentecostals/Charismatics like use to verse to assert Paul spoke in an angelic language to support their practice of speaking in tongues. What does "Though" mean in this instance? The context gives equal weight to both of the English definitions as a conjuction: "in spite of the fact" and "even if". Which one is correct and why?

 

Another example from this same passage...What does "charity" mean? The English definitions cover a wide range and the context does not demand one over the other. Please explain your answer.

First, we are assuming that men and angels speak different languages. It seems that angels never have a prOBlem being understood by those to whom they speak. Hence, why Paul said, "men AND angels, not "men OR angels", to imply different kinds of languages. It may be, in glory, that angels have no need to speak at all, save to make themselves heard by man nearby, as we see when angels spoke during visions, like John's in Revelation. Otherwise, the only language we ever see angels speaking is human languages of those to whom they are speaking.

 

as for charity, if we have concerns about the current meaning of it, we can always go back to English dictionaries closest to the time the KJV was written. Simply, Charity means a selfless, giving love, a love that has another in mind over one's self.  Maybe use Webster's 1828-the primary meaning matches the context perfectly, while the lesser meaning, that of almsgiving or such, while important, is hardly the greatest over faith and hope.

[HappyChristian]

 

as for charity, if we have concerns about the current meaning of it, we can always go back to English dictionaries closest to the time the KJV was written. Simply, Charity means a selfless, giving love, a love that has another in mind over one's self.  Maybe use Webster's 1828-the primary meaning matches the context perfectly, while the lesser meaning, that of almsgiving or such, while important, is hardly the greatest over faith and hope.

What, then, is the difference between going to an English dictionary closest to the time of the KJB and going to the Greek?  Seems to me that if someone says one is wrong, so, too, is the other.   (Don't get me wrong - I love Webster's 1828...but I also have no prOBlem looking at the Greek definition.)

[Ukulelemike]

What, then, is the difference between going to an English dictionary closest to the time of the KJB and going to the Greek?  Seems to me that if someone says one is wrong, so, too, is the other.   (Don't get me wrong - I love Webster's 1828...but I also have no prOBlem looking at the Greek definition.)

Because you are going to the english dictionary closest related to the meanings the translators intended to bring. Its like words that have changed meaning some, like "conversation" which today is generally relegated to mean speaking back and forth with others, while then it referred to your entire manner of life. Not understanding that, you would not understand what they were meaning when they spoke of it. The English has changed, and it can take some study to understand it, even without trying to go to the 'original languages'. 

[HappyChristian]

Because you are going to the english dictionary closest related to the meanings the translators intended to bring. Its like words that have changed meaning some, like "conversation" which today is generally relegated to mean speaking back and forth with others, while then it referred to your entire manner of life. Not understanding that, you would not understand what they were meaning when they spoke of it. The English has changed, and it can take some study to understand it, even without trying to go to the 'original languages'. 

I agree there, that it can take some study.  But I don't see that going to a dictionary is any different than looking at it in the Greek.  Some of the posts on here seem to be saying that even a dictionary is wrong because the Bible itself will tell you what it means, or the Holy Spirit will. Using a dictionary, then, would fall under that category.  As I said, I don't agree with it - I'm just making the point that dictionary or Greek - it's same-same...looking up meanings.  Which isn't wrong.

[candlelight]

sorry I must have got a plank in my eye.  Never the less something led to her converting to Judaism and it wont save just like many of the other groups.  and these groups are claiming they are turned to Judaism as their religion claiming to be true Christians.  I have had some long discussions with one of the leaders of a group in California he is now going to have multiple wives.  It is messed up for sure.

 

She told me that "Christianity" was the reason she turned to Judaism, AVBB.  She told me that she used to attend Calvary Chapel, and decided that "Christianity" was a joke.