Post-Trib Rapture?

[Invicta]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:02 AM, TomB said:

"They shall look upon me who they have pierced”, only one soldier and.those that witnessed the crucifixion could possibly be included in that prophesy.

 I can't agree with you there.  The Jews who called out "Crucify Him" were also giuilty of piercing him as well as all those who neglect or reject his call to salvation are also guilty.

[TomB]

Blessings to you brother. We have to be spiritually minded like Christ. 

[DaveW]

On 3/4/2020 at 5:02 PM, TomB said:

When the Scriptures says, They

shall look upon me who they have pierced”, only one soldier and.those that witnessed the crucifixion could possibly be included in that prophesy. Jesus said the day is coming that all who are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of man and come forth. On that great day Christ shall give a shout and a roar as it states in Jer. 25. This is definitely the last day. The trump is also mentioned. This is the rapture for we which are alive and remain shall not proceed those which have fallen asleep or “passed away” as some would say. So even those that pierced him will hear his voice. Do you remember when Jesus said in Jn 11 “Lazarus come forth” and although he was dead four days already he heard and came forth. On the last day those Roman soldiers that pierced Jesus will hear his voice and also “every eye shall see him”. Even all those that have fallen asleep since the beginning of the world. For the harvest is ripe as it says in Revelation and have patience for he waits for the first and the last fruits. In your patience possess ye your souls. ”That day is great. It is even the time of Jacobs trouble but he shall be saved out of it”.  That day is a day of darkness and gloominess a day of wastness and desolation. A day of.   Let me copy it word for word...

That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.      Jesus said finally in Luke 21:36 pray always that yes me counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son  of man.    when he comes in his glory he shall separate the sheep from the goats and place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on the left....   So this second question you have I’m not quite sure what is being requested. The Word of God is far more concerned about the gospel and salvation than any particular invasion of a country. The Scriptures speak in parables that must be interpreted.  Remember Jesus on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection he expounded to them in all the Scriptures from Moses to all the prophets the things concerning himself. Can you find Jesus in every Old Testament book of the Bible? He’s there because He not only spoke the Word he Is the Word. And beware lest you stumble and wrestle with the Scriptures because they can be and are a stumbling block to many as both Jesus and Peter and other prophets warned about.  “Jesus, why do you speak to them in parables?” Did he say so they can understand better? No! He said so in hearing they will not hear”  Verily thou art  a God that hide the himself oh God of Israel, the Savior.     I could go on but I hope this helps. Thank you for your inquiry.

 

 

You are making claims that are not proven by Bible verses, making vague references to vague passages, where you say they mean one thing, but there is no correlation of what you are saying with the vague references you give.

I have been able to find the verses and passages that you refer to because I am able to use a search engine, but with each verse I identify, it doesn't say what you are suggesting.

And you join passages together that have no reason to be joined together.

If you were serious about stating your case, then you would at least give proper verse references for each of your claims, but it seems to me that you don't want people to find the passages you refer to in case they actually read them and find that they don't actually say what you are saying.

At one point you say "Let me copy it word for word..." but then you leave off the reference, and the passage has no apparent link to anything you are saying - at least as far as I can tell.

You talk about the harvest is ripe, but give no reference to it, but have you actually read Revelation 14? (verse 15 for anyone reading this, because He doesn't want to tell you). It is nto relevant to your point.

 

Classic example of what I am talking about (but this time he at least gives a reference!):

" quote from TomB:

Jesus said finally in Luke 21:36 pray always that yes me counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son  of man.   
when he comes in his glory he shall separate the sheep from the goats and place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on the left....   "

Note that quoting in this way is implying that the verses are somehow joined together - he is almost trying to make it look like line 3 is a continuation from the end of line 2. THEY ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME BOOK!

 (Note that I am not criticising the spelling mistakes - we all do that.)

The complete verse is:

Luk 21:36
(36)  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I don't know why he chose to leave out the "Watch ye therefore" but he did.

I will however say that the verse he quoted has nothing to do with goats or sheep as far as Luke is concerned. If there is a link between these two subjects as he implies, it is not obvious from the Luke passage.

In fact if you look up the sheep/goats reference you find the only reference to goats and sheep being separated to be in:

Mat 25:31-33
(31)  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32)  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33)  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 

I will note again that he refused to share that reference - I think because it has nothing to do with Luke as he is trying to imply.

Folks, please don't listen to this guy until he starts to properly quote or at least reference his passages, and explain the links that he is suggesting, because he is joining things together that the Bible simply does not put together. And THEN, check his references - as you should with EVERY PERSON who presumes to teach you about the Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ukulelemike]

5 hours ago, DaveW said:

 

You are making claims that are not proven by Bible verses, making vague references to vague passages, where you say they mean one thing, but there is no correlation of what you are saying with the vague references you give.

I have been able to find the verses and passages that you refer to because I am able to use a search engine, but with each verse I identify, it doesn't say what you are suggesting.

And you join passages together that have no reason to be joined together.

If you were serious about stating your case, then you would at least give proper verse references for each of your claims, but it seems to me that you don't want people to find the passages you refer to in case they actually read them and find that they don't actually say what you are saying.

At one point you say "Let me copy it word for word..." but then you leave off the reference, and the passage has no apparent link to anything you are saying - at least as far as I can tell.

You talk about the harvest is ripe, but give no reference to it, but have you actually read Revelation 14? (verse 15 for anyone reading this, because He doesn't want to tell you). It is nto relevant to your point.

 

Classic example of what I am talking about (but this time he at least gives a reference!):

" quote from TomB:

Jesus said finally in Luke 21:36 pray always that yes me counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son  of man.   
when he comes in his glory he shall separate the sheep from the goats and place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on the left....   "

Note that quoting in this way is implying that the verses are somehow joined together - he is almost trying to make it look like line 3 is a continuation from the end of line 2. THEY ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME BOOK!

 (Note that I am not criticising the spelling mistakes - we all do that.)

The complete verse is:

Luk 21:36
(36)  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I don't know why he chose to leave out the "Watch ye therefore" but he did.

I will however say that the verse he quoted has nothing to do with goats or sheep as far as Luke is concerned. If there is a link between these two subjects as he implies, it is not obvious from the Luke passage.

In fact if you look up the sheep/goats reference you find the only reference to goats and sheep being separated to be in:

Mat 25:31-33
(31)  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32)  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33)  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 

I will note again that he refused to share that reference - I think because it has nothing to do with Luke as he is trying to imply.

Folks, please don't listen to this guy until he starts to properly quote or at least reference his passages, and explain the links that he is suggesting, because he is joining things together that the Bible simply does not put together. And THEN, check his references - as you should with EVERY PERSON who presumes to teach you about the Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suspect a lot of this is more due to just not being adept at putting his(?) thoughts together in writing very well. I will admit to not even being sure as to what point he is trying to make here. 

[Ukulelemike]

On 3/4/2020 at 1:02 AM, TomB said:

 

When the Scriptures says, They

shall look upon me who they have pierced”, only one soldier and.those that witnessed the crucifixion could possibly be included in that prophesy. 

Let's look in CONTEXT, (because context is king in biblical interpretation):

"The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zech 12:7-10)

In context, we see the entire setting here is Judah, Jerusalem, the house of David. This is figurative for Israel as a whole, the people of God, who, at the time of context, being invaded by the armies of the world, and when Jesus returns, they will all see Him, "whom they have pierced". Why does all Israel count as those who have pierced Jesus? Because this speaks of the crucifixion as a whole, not just the Roman guard himself who pierced His side, because it was not Rome that sought to kill Jesus, it was the Jews who demanded it, who threatened Pilate if he didn't, and it was the Jews who said, "His blood be on us, and on our children." (Matt 27:25). THEY pierced Jesus just as surely as if their hands held the blade that did so. 

So those in Jerusalem will see Jesus come down, and immediately recognize who He is, that this is the one their fathers pierced and killed, that He is the one they have rejected for so long, and they will weep and mourn for their blindness and rejection and, I suspect, for all the time they lost not serving Him that was before their faces the whole time. 

[Jim_Alaska]

2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Let's look in CONTEXT, (because context is king in biblical interpretation):

"The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zech 12:7-10)

In context, we see the entire setting here is Judah, Jerusalem, the house of David. This is figurative for Israel as a whole, the people of God, who, at the time of context, being invaded by the armies of the world, and when Jesus returns, they will all see Him, "whom they have pierced". Why does all Israel count as those who have pierced Jesus? Because this speaks of the crucifixion as a whole, not just the Roman guard himself who pierced His side, because it was not Rome that sought to kill Jesus, it was the Jews who demanded it, who threatened Pilate if he didn't, and it was the Jews who said, "His blood be on us, and on our children." (Matt 27:25). THEY pierced Jesus just as surely as if their hands held the blade that did so. 

So those in Jerusalem will see Jesus come down, and immediately recognize who He is, that this is the one their fathers pierced and killed, that He is the one they have rejected for so long, and they will weep and mourn for their blindness and rejection and, I suspect, for all the time they lost not serving Him that was before their faces the whole time. 

Amen and Amen, Brother Mike. Thanks for posting this.

[Salyan]

On 3/3/2020 at 12:26 PM, Alan said:

 I deleted my post because I deleted what I wanted to say as I did not want to argue with a moderator and because you had to write something, so,  I just said the word, "empty."

I took it the other way too.  I've edited the post to say 'deleted comment' to remove future confusion.

[OlBrotherDC]

I think most pre-trib, pre-mil people don’t think that people professing to be post-trib are actually post trib at all, I think they would be considered “mid-trib” if they’re using the post trib pre wrath phrase. 

[Ukulelemike]

9 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I think most pre-trib, pre-mil people don’t think that people professing to be post-trib are actually post trib at all, I think they would be considered “mid-trib” if they’re using the post trib pre wrath phrase. 

Correct. Personally, I call it post-trib, because I see a significant difference between the 'tribulation' and the 'wrath', the tribulation occurring before the falling of God's wrath. 

In the tribulation, while God controls all that happens, yet Satan also is given (controlled) free reign to persecute Israel and any believers present. But when God's wrath falls, Satan and the Antichrist and their followers are directly punished by God's wrath, and they no longer have power. And as for how long each takes to happen, the Bible isn't clear, which is why I can still see us not know WHEN Christ will return. It isn't as if one things start, we will have an exact number of days or weeks until the rapture. The wrath of God may well occur very quickly, in a matter of days, even hours. 

[DaChaser]

On 1/18/2020 at 1:47 AM, LYDIA WESTERN said:

This is my first time on here. I’m an Australian IB Pastor’s daughter. There’s smoke everywhere over here, just by the way. My friends house burnt down the other day.

One of the churches that we have had an interface with have suddenly come out as Post-Trib. If anyone knows David Cloud, he was out here just recently and did a full series of meetings with them and then found out AFTERWARDS (from my pastor brother) that they’ve been “studying” the subject of prophecy all year, and hey presto! The church is in for the guillotein. I’ve got friends in that church, and now they’re telling me they’re post-trib. It’s a bit lonely here in Australia. Most of our churches are hundreds of km apart. Apparently the States sometimes has more than one IB church in a big town! I can’t believe it! They must have more friends too then to make up for any losses.

I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).

As far as I can see, we are not appointed to wrath (and that meaning the whole 7 year tribulation). God will keep us “from the hour of temptation” that will come upon the whole earth”. 

 

 

many of the Early Church fathers held to a form of that, which is called Historical Premil position.

[Joe Chandler]

On 2/21/2020 at 6:22 AM, No Nicolaitans said:

Hello.

Endure. What does that word mean?

 

For that matter what does 'saved' mean here? Salvation as in being born again or saved as in delivered from physical harm?

[Invicta]

On 2/21/2020 at 11:22 AM, No Nicolaitans said:

Hello.

Endure. What does that word mean?

 

It is strange that whe  I speak to JWs and ask who will be saved, the quote that  verse. Except one, who said  "Believe on Jesus Christ and you will be saved." 

There are usually  a couple at the end of our road most mornings, they seem to change to another couple after an hour.  One named Godwin who is an elder wants me to sit on a bench in the park and discuss the bible with him  but I said I was quite happy sitting right there on my mobility scooter. I invited him to come to our house and sit in the garden and discuss  the scriptures with me. Eventually he agreed and I gave him a scripture verse and asked him to think what it meant to him to start with. He asked what my take on it was but I said  "I'm asking you think about it and we can discuss it when you come." 

1 Corr  6:19,20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.  They say the Holy Spirit is only a force not God. Who lives in a temple? Depending on his answer I will direct him to the scriptures where Paul says "You are the temple of the living God" Also who if the first and last. Their bible says Jehovah in a couple of places and in others it is plainly Jesus. They say jesus is a god, not The God.  They also say Jesus died an a torture stake not a cross and that  the cross is a pagan sign which shows that churches are based on paganism. But their  watchtower magazine used a cross in a crown on the cover till the first issue in 1931 after which they took it off. 

 

 

[Joe Chandler]

On 1/18/2020 at 4:04 AM, John Young said:

Just remember Post-Trib rapture comes from the Reformed Covenant theology that says Israel and the church is the continuation of the same national covenant.

FYI John MacArthur is an unapologetic Calvinist, but he is also staunchly pre-mil and pre-trib. He is so pre that he won't east Post Toasties. Covenant theology is pretty flexible and diverse in its eschatology. 

[BrotherTony]

Just now, Joe Chandler said:

FYI John MacArthur is an unapologetic Calvinist, but he is also staunchly pre-mil and pre-trib. He is so pre that he won't east Post Toasties. Covenant theology is pretty flexible and diverse in its eschatology. 

Yes, most of my friends who are reformed in theology deny a pre or mid trib rapture. Personally, I have to question this. I know there were some people in Bible college back in the early 80s who were researching these 3 positions and they got in trouble. I was amongst those 30-40 students. ALL of my research was confiscated and I was told that only the pretribulation, premillennial rapture was to be studied and accepted. 

[Joe Chandler]

On 7/4/2023 at 1:40 PM, BrotherTony said:

Yes, most of my friends who are reformed in theology deny a pre or mid trib rapture. Personally, I have to question this. I know there were some people in Bible college back in the early 80s who were researching these 3 positions and they got in trouble. I was amongst those 30-40 students. ALL of my research was confiscated and I was told that only the pretribulation, premillennial rapture was to be studied and accepted. 

You have to wonder why the extreme reaction. I have experienced the same reaction, especially online.