Is the KJVO "movement" dying?

[swathdiver]

The Holy Spirit burdens our hearts to unite with the right church.  Not only do we learn in and grow in grace but we also contribute to that church, bringing with us special God-given gifts that are a blessing to all the saints, including the pastor.  None of them are perfect of course and will be less so when you unite with one.  If Gospel light is where the Lord wants, you, go there and unite with them.  Learn to love story time with Brother Bobby.  Someday, you may be called to pastor that church but be careful of moving the ancient landmarks.  

[Pastorj]

58 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

The Holy Spirit burdens our hearts to unite with the right church.  Not only do we learn in and grow in grace but we also contribute to that church, bringing with us special God-given gifts that are a blessing to all the saints, including the pastor.  None of them are perfect of course and will be less so when you unite with one.  If Gospel light is where the Lord wants, you, go there and unite with them.  Learn to love story time with Brother Bobby.  Someday, you may be called to pastor that church but be careful of moving the ancient landmarks.  

No Christian should settle for "Story Time". It is not preaching, which is what Preachers are called to do.

[Pastorj]

swathdriver - Btw, not trying to be critical, but it is this very acceptance of bad preaching that our IFB churches are dying. If I can go to a liberal non-denom church and get better preaching than an IFB church, we have succumbed to the Laodicean Church age.

[DaveW]

1 hour ago, Pastorj said:

swathdriver - Btw, not trying to be critical, but it is this very acceptance of bad preaching that our IFB churches are dying. If I can go to a liberal non-denom church and get better preaching than an IFB church, we have succumbed to the Laodicean Church age.

You keep saying that "IFB churches are dying". 

I know there are churches closing and opening all the time, but the reason some IFB churches are dying is more often than not laziness on the part of Pastors, or scandal of some sort.

But in reality, IFB churches are not dying. Not generally.

In fact, in my area we are seeing more and more people turn from rock n roll compromise churches and looking for KJV, Bible preaching, hymn singing churches.

I guess I just don't agree with the generalisation.....

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by DaveW
Phone spelling

[Jordan Kurecki]

13 hours ago, Pastorj said:

I made this statement early in the discussion wondering if someone would want to discuss. Are you KJVO or OKJV?

can you distinguish between the two and explain each position?

[Pastorj]

15 hours ago, DaveW said:

You keep saying that "IFB churches are dying". 

I know there are churches closing and opening all the time, but the reason some IFB churches are dying is more often than not laziness on the part of Pastors, or scandal of some sort.

But in reality, IFB churches are not dying. Not generally.

In fact, in my area we are seeing more and more people turn from rock n roll compromise churches and looking for KJV, Bible preaching, hymn singing churches.

I guess I just don't agree with the generalisation.....

 

DaveW - The topic of this thread is "Is the KJVO Movement dying". Since this is tied to IFB, I have added that I believe IFB churches are dying for a number of reasons.

1. In the Bible belt where there are 100's of churches and unfortunately the vast majority either no longer or never preached the Word of God, I count those dead. They may have lots of people, but when God's Word is not faithfully preached, the church has no value.
2. The majority of churches that do preach the Word of God have no life in them. Though the preaching is good, the people don't care. They don't care about visitors, they don't respond to the preaching, the church is just withering away. In 20 years, everyone will have passed and the church will be gone.

Now, I know that is a lot of generalization, but the reality is that the number of good churches has declined significantly in the last 20 years. For every 1 church that opens its doors, 10 churches close and that was in 2007.

How do we prevent this from happening
1. Pastors need to stop the entertaining speeches and get back to Preaching the Word of God. It is the Word of God that impacts lives.
2. People need to stop being self centered and start caring about other Christians and the lost.

Churches need to get back to being churches instead of being Sunday entertainment.

 

 

[Pastorj]

9 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

can you distinguish between the two and explain each position?

KJVO - King James Version Only - This position holds to the KJV being the Inspired Word of God, either through Preservation (Biblical) or through re-inspiration (Ruckmanite - Not Biblical)
1. A KJVO individual believes that the KJV is the only version that English speaking individuals should ever use. They reject all modern translations and any future modern translations.
2. Extremists in this position will also say that the KJV should be used to translate the Bible into other languages.
3. Even further to the extreme, there are some in this camp that believe that if you are not saved from a KJV, they you are not saved as the KJV is the only version which is the Word of God and saves people.

OKJV - Only King James Version - This position also holds to the KJV being the inspired Word of God, but would completely reject the Ruckmanite position of re-inspiration.
1. The KJV is inspired through Preservation as promised in Scripture. Inspiration was only in the original manuscripts, but the KJV can be considered the "Inspired Word of God" because of Preservation
2. The OKJV individual is open to a future modern translation as long as that translation meets the same criteria of the KJV. (Probably never going to happen, but they are open to it). The reason it won't happen is because those that are qualified to actually do the translation are not willing and those that are willing, are not capable.

Though the average KJVO and OKJV are basically the same in their position, the willingness for God to continue his preservation in a new translation is not acceptable to the KJVO group.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Pastorj said:

KJVO - King James Version Only - This position holds to the KJV being the Inspired Word of God, either through Preservation (Biblical) or through re-inspiration (Ruckmanite - Not Biblical)
1. A KJVO individual believes that the KJV is the only version that English speaking individuals should ever use. They reject all modern translations and any future modern translations.
2. Extremists in this position will also say that the KJV should be used to translate the Bible into other languages.
3. Even further to the extreme, there are some in this camp that believe that if you are not saved from a KJV, they you are not saved as the KJV is the only version which is the Word of God and saves people.

OKJV - Only King James Version - This position also holds to the KJV being the inspired Word of God, but would completely reject the Ruckmanite position of re-inspiration.
1. The KJV is inspired through Preservation as promised in Scripture. Inspiration was only in the original manuscripts, but the KJV can be considered the "Inspired Word of God" because of Preservation
2. The OKJV individual is open to a future modern translation as long as that translation meets the same criteria of the KJV. (Probably never going to happen, but they are open to it). The reason it won't happen is because those that are qualified to actually do the translation are not willing and those that are willing, are not capable.

Though the average KJVO and OKJV are basically the same in their position, the willingness for God to continue his preservation in a new translation is not acceptable to the KJVO group.

Another difference between the KJVO position and the OKJV position would be their differing viewpoint concerning Bible study through the use of the original languages, Hebrew and Greek.  Those of the KJVO position would view it as a major negative (maybe even, a sinful negative); those of the OKJV position would view it as a useful positive.

In addition, those of the OKJV position will often indicate that what they really are is MTO (Massoretic Text Only) for the Hebrew of the Old Testament & TRO (Textus Receptus Only; Received Text Only) for the Greek of the New Testament.  

Edited January 3, 2018 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastorj]

Pastor Markle - You are absolutely correct.

[swathdiver]

Pastorj, I am not suggesting you settle at all.  I am suggesting that if the Holy Spirit leads you to that church, unite with it.  Your gifts and influence may change the ways of the preacher or lead to a change in who stands in the pulpit.  Again, this is the work of the Holy Ghost through the hearts of submissive and humbled men.  

[Pastorj]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, swathdiver said:

Pastorj, I am not suggesting you settle at all.  I am suggesting that if the Holy Spirit leads you to that church, unite with it.  Your gifts and influence may change the ways of the preacher or lead to a change in who stands in the pulpit.  Again, this is the work of the Holy Ghost through the hearts of submissive and humbled men.  

swathdriver - I did not intend to argue about this with you, but this is unfortunately the mentality that has gotten our IFB churches to where they are today. The Holy Spirit would never lead any Christian to a church where there is no preaching,. The vast majority of Christians are not being led by the Holy Spirit, they are being led by their emotions and entertainment value. They go to a church and leave happy so that must mean the Holy Spirit is leading them there. Christians should go to church to be edified, reproved and rebuked by the Word of God. If the Word of God is not preached, all you did was get entertained.

My gifts and influence will not change the ways of a "yeller or story teller". I will not refer to them as preachers as they do not "Preach".

People need to hold the Pastor to a Biblical level and mandate that he "Preaches". It's a sad state of America that we are missing this in our churches.

[weary warrior]

I do believe that the KJO "movement" is dying, but I'm OK with that. The KJV was around centuries before there was ever a "movement", and will be here long after the movement is over. A movement is spearheaded by men following men. And what men lead other men into, they can lead them out of. I suspect that when we get to heaven, God's opinion of the shadow cast by some of the IFB "greats" will not be quite as high as their own opinion of themselves. John the Baptist said "He must increase, but I must decrease". I've watched these men do nothing but increase for decades, until they crashed one-by-one, ruining their testimonies, as well as the testimony of their "movement". Some 100 -odd years of Icarus flying too close too the sun on wings held together by the wax of personality. It melted. Now we're falling from the sky.

We have spent decades sending our best and brightest to these centralized "institutions of higher learning" established and run by egomaniacs and carnal showmen, and failed to do our duty as a local church and train up our own, as commanded by II Timothy 2:2. So we now have a full 2 generations of "pastors" in this country who are the ignorant, carnal product of our own lazy, irresponsibility.

The answer? The few real, godly, veteran pastors that are left must start taking their own young preachers under their own wing, and lead them at home by example in weeping, working, loving, studying, preaching, praying and living right. Pastoring is about nights on our knees, not neckties around our necks. It's about working hard on sermons, not waxing eloquent on social ills. It's sacrifice, not salaries. Humility instead of haughtiness. Building faith, not getting fat.

We call ourselves "Christian". "Followers of Christ". Well, Christ was poor, humble, loving and forgiving while still preaching hard truth. He was hard working and invested in his disciples on a 24-hour-a-day, personal, sacrificial basis. We, the IFB "movement" left following Christ and began following men who named Christ, but followed themselves. 

I'm 50 years old. I was born to an IFB preacher, and raised in it my whole life. 3 of my uncles were IFB preachers. My dad graduated under DR Tom Malone at Northwestern in 1972. I was ordained in 1998 as an IFB preacher, and have preached in IFB churches across the US and in a number of foreign countries. I am heartsick at the condition of the church today as a whole. We have to stop doing what got us in this mess in the first place, and start accepting our responsibility to replace ourselves, (Matthew 28:18-20, II Timothy 2:2 etc.), while making sure daily we are even worth replacing.

[Jim_Alaska]

WW is right on the mark and echos what I have said on this forum many times. To me there is no substitute for local churches training the men who have been called to preach in that same church.

To send  our future preachers off to bible colleges where they will be exposed to and encouraged in lazy preaching practices, not taught proper study methods, exposed to worldly musical standards  and easy believism is a recipe for disaster. This will ensure that future IFB churches will continue to follow the easy path of modern day Laodicean  practices.

Many, if not most, of the colleges today are turning out graduates that are ill equipped to pastor and many are hardly even grounded in  Baptist Church Polity and doctrine. This is hardly the way to  follow the Apostle Paul's exhortation to:  2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 
 Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 
 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 
 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

I fear for the future IFB churches that will call unprepared and unqualified men to pastor their churches. I do understand that Jesus has assured us that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church, but am greatly concerned for the spiritual condition of future individual churches that will have to deal with men that are not properly trained and don't even know it.

[Pastorj]

Weary Warrior - You are absolutely correct. Churches stopped training young men and started relying on schools like BJU, PCC, Crown and a few others. Though I like these institutions, they do not train young men to pastor churches. The young men come out completely clueless and usually have no basis of the Bible. I encourage young men to go to "Preacher Schools" like New England Baptist College, or other church run schools out there.

Independent Baptist Churches need to get back to what made them - The Word of God!

[wretched]

I think the problem is much more basic and systemic than this. Never mind the perceived state of these institutions because none are Scriptural.

The entire practice of higher learning institutions in which "young" men are trained to "pastor other" churches came from the RCC and later mimicked by protestant denominations. Not one jot nor tittle is Scriptural IMO.