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Jordan Kurecki

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Jordan Kurecki last won the day on September 17 2021

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About Jordan Kurecki

  • Birthday 03/11/1992

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    Chicago
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    IFB
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  1. I understand what you are saying and will have to give it some more thought, Perhaps you are right that I assumed wearable=clothing in this context. Also, I never asserted that pants was inherently mans wear. I agree as you stated “by its actual Hebrew grammar and its original Mosaic context, the verse could not have been referring to pants-wear. Attempts to indicate that pants-wear is somehow inherently built into the ORIGINAL MEANING of the verse are false to the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures.” My response was based on an argument I have heard from some claiming that the passage refers exclusively to weapons and attire of war and who thus limit the passage to things as women going to war, and who want to exclude any inclusion of clothing.
  2. I basically have agreed with almost everything you have said up to this point, but I just want to offer some light, pushback on this. Even in the bible itself, especially in the Gospels for example, you will often see words that are different from each other used to in those inspired parallel accounts, but words which are closely synonymous. Even in the KJO preface (Which I know is not inspired) they defend their practice of NOT translating Hebrew or Greek words consistently by appealing to their perception that God used a "diversity" of words to express the same sense in his word. Couple that with the Hebrew practice of parallelism which often contrast, expands, and sometimes even states one singular idea with two different phrases, I think we should be careful of making a sharp distinction simply due to different words choices. Yes different word choices do sometimes denote different meanings, but not always. Another caution about doing words studies as well is in order, words have what we call "Semantic Range", meaning that a word can have more than one meaning, depending on the context in which it used. For example, the word "good" in English can mean a variety of things, it can mean "morally excellent" as in "The law is good" or it can mean "pleasant" as in the "the food tastes good" or it can mean "of a high quality" as in "he does good work" etc etc etc. All of those meanings are slightly different in nuance and highly contextualized. Some words can have pretty significant difference depending on context, for example the English word run. You can "run" to the store, meaning you "went", you can "run" a business, meaning you're in charge and responsible for it, you can also "run" for your life, meaning you fled, a car automobile can "run" meaning it operates properly. That being said, a word study, whereby one looks at all the occurrences of word in the Bible will be good for illuminating the semantic range of word, but some people make the mistake of forcing the sense of a word in one context, onto another context and vice verse, or of trying to apply ALL the different senses and uses of a word into each place the word is found in linguistics this is called the "illegitimate total fallacy". Just because a word has one sense in 324 places for example, it may still yet have another distinct sense in 1 other single place based on context. That being said, I essentially agree with the conclusions you are presenting here, but I just wanted to point out something that I see people say. People often say things that are different are not the same, but usually when people say they, they are only looking at the form of words and not the sense, and what many people do not realize is sometimes different forms can express similar or identical "senses" That being said, let me make some observations. 1. כְּלִי and שִׂמְלָה both appear to be set in parallel to each-other, with the second clause clearly being about a man wearing a woman's garment. 2. כְלִי appears to be a word that has a rough meaning of "articles, possessions, objects" etc, and the type of objects it can refer to seems largely dependent on context, in some contexts it appears to refer to items of warfare, in some places just general objects, in some contexts used of a yoke of oxen, and we could go on and on and on. 3. In Hebrew, a rigidly literal translation of the phrase in question would be "There should not be upon women, כְּלִי of a man. From my point of view, based on context and what seems to be a basic sense of כְּלִי that the word is in fact referring to clothing. One way of understanding the passage would be something like "There should not be the general things of men, UPON women", the Hebrew preposition "עַל" literal means "upon" and that tells us that the כְּלִי in mind are things that can be "on" someone. The Hebrew preposition and the parallelism found in the passage, seems to strongly imply to me that the כְּלִי is in fact referring to the clothing of men. After all, what are the "things of men" that can be physically "upon" someone but clothing? I think the fact that the KJV translators translated it as a woman shall not "wear" seems to indicate that the KJV translators picked up on these clues as well, especially since there is no actual explicit Hebrew verb in the first half of the verse that actually means "wear". I don't honestly see any sharp distinction contextually to try and draw out a significant distinction between כְּלִי and שִׂמְלָה in this particular context.
  3. I second this. This is an excellent study bible.
  4. If by “superior” you mean “more profitable” then yes, if you mean “more accurate” than absolutely not. How can a translate be superior to it’s source? Unless you think the original words in Greek given by inspiration were somehow lacking, which would be an unbiblical doctrine. Just because from a pragmatic perspective, you can read English and not Greek, does not mean the KJV is superior to the Greek TR. There are people in Uganda who speak Lugbara and not English, and the Lugbara bible is based on the critical text and is more or less closer to the NIV or ESV, does their lack of English understanding mean the Lugbara bible is more superior to the English KJV?
  5. If you want to play that game, in the New Testament people sold ALL that they had and laid it at the Apostles feet. Go to your church this Sunday and give literally every dollar you own, and then I will respect your consistency, after all, did God ever tell anyone not to give everything they have to the church?
  6. Where in the Old Testament was Abraham COMMANDED by God to tithe? You seem to confuse descriptive history with it being “instituted by God”. Just because Abraham tithed, does not mean he did it because God “instituted” a tithe on him. The Old Testament is full of people giving things to God that he did not require, but simply because they CHOSE to in order to worship and honor God.
  7. The canons of textual criticism are pretty much just opinion and conjecture passed off as science in my opinion, I want to know what experiments they have done to prove their different canons. Like was there some study done that demonstrates when people are asked to copy something that they are more likely to add things than to omit them? IMO it's much easier to omit something than to add something not there.
  8. I am not asking you to prove the KJVO position, nor did I anywhere state my position, nor did I attack the KJV. I simply asked you to give one example to substantiate a very specific claim. If your not willing to do that, nor if you are desiring to discuss the differences between the KJV and the NKJV, then why did YOU bring it up? You are the one that brought up this oft repeated talking point. I find it rather disingenuous that now you are saying you don't wish to discuss that point. You are on a public forum and you made an assertion, I simply asked for one example, if the examples are so clear and obvious, I don't understand why you would not take the opportunity to give concrete evidence?
  9. Jerry, just wanted to clarify, what you are saying here is simply untrue. The Modern English version for example is also based on the Hebrew Masoretic Text/Greek Textus Receptus, and so is the NKJV, regardless of what you are asserting. Just because the NKJV differs in translation choice from the KJV, does not mean it's based on a different Greek text, anymore than the KJV is from different text than the previous Geneva Bible and Bishops Bible (of which the KJV was a officially a revision of) If you could demonstrate one example of where the NKJV follows the critical text, I would be interested to see it. If you want to reject the NKJV for it's translational choices, there are some legitimate criticisms to be made there, but to say it's based on a different text is patently false. Even if you still wrote off the NKJV as being " based on the critical text" (even though it's not), the MEV exists and entire churches even use it, Also the Geneva Bible is based on the Masoretic Text and the Greek Textus Receptus, and there are individuals today still using it, in fact there is even a "Modernized Geneva Bible" with modern spelling of words (No word changes), therefore the charge the the KJV "is the only current English translation in use that is based on the preserved Textus Receptus Greek Text and the Hebrew Masoretic Text" is simply not true. Can you please provide a source for this statement, I have never been able to find any law that actually states this but would be glad to see it.
  10. Totally agree with your philosophy. It certainly would cost both local churches and missionaries less money in the long run, and also would make furloughs easier. Also makes it easier for your church to actually mentally keep up with your supported missionaries. a lot easier to keep up with 5 missionaries at say 300 a month than 20 missionaries at 75 a month.
  11. Sorry, I interpreted your question as somewhat of a rhetorical question.
  12. I highly doubt it's motivated by $, they probably just feel like the NASB has some deficiencies and wished to correct them. I would be hesitant to ascribe ill motives when we don't know them.
  13. What he said, basically just a revision of the NASB.
  14. I just went back and read through the NKJV preface, they do admit to CONSULTING the LXX and the Latin Vulgate, but they also claim the KJV translators at times followed the LXX and Latin Vulgate at times over the Hebrew text! Doing some research, it's at least agreed upon that the KJV translators 100% consulted other texts like the LXX. In fact in Genesis there is a marginal note in the KJV that references the LXX. There is a quite a bit of phraseology and words that the KJV borrowed and carried over from the Latin Vulgate into English. The Latin Vulgate seemed to have strong influence on the style of the KJV in some places. You can do research and google it yourself and find tons of influence that the Latin Vulgate had on the KJV.. The KJV translators absolutely consulted and looked at other Ancient Translations and even earlier English translations as well. Dr. Price, the executive editor of the NKJV, on his personal website answered an accusation by D.A. Waite that the NKJV used a different OT text than the KJV and stated: “As former executive editor of the NKJV Old Testament, I can confidently assure you that the NKJV fol­lowed, as carefully as possible, the Bomberg 1524-25 Ben Chayyim edition that the KJV 1611 translators used--I personally made sure.” Here is the source from Dr. Price's website where you can read it for yourself: https://www.jamesdprice.com/newkingjamesversion.html Arthur Farstad the executive editor of the NKJV has stated “Most current New Testaments use some modification of the Westcott-Hort text, such as an eclectic one not too far removed from that text. Seminary and college professors especially are surprised that the NKJV used such a conservative text as the Textus Receptus..the NKJV is an update of an historic version translated from a specific type of text. We felt it was unwise to change the base from which it was made. As noted earlier, the translators of the English Revised Version of the New Testament (1881) were soundly criticized for slipping in the Westcott-Hort Greek text when it was not part of their mandate from the church.” The KJV translators themselves included textual variants and references to other manuscripts in the original marginal notes. For example the margin in Matthew 26:26 says “Many Greek copies have, gave thanks”. There are marginal notes of this nature in Matthew 1:11, Luke 10:22, Luke 17:36, and other places as well... There is a whole segment on this link with these kinds of examples:https://bloggingtheword.com/the-blog/the-types-of-marginal-notes-in-the-1611-kjv According to Scrivener there were 67 marginal notes of a textual nature in the original KJV. Does, to use your own words, a "simple look at the translator/marginal notes show that" the KJV translators "made translational choices based on other manuscripts"? Dr. Price said in response to D.A. Waite: "So it is quite obvious that the KJV translators used marginal notes to identify variant readings in the Hebrew and Greek text, and they also referred to the ancient versions and church fathers in these notes. Usually their notes did not identify specific sources, yet Waite criticizes the NKJV for giving the same kind of marginal notes with more specific information.".. The NKJV Preface states: "The notes in the present edition make no evaluation of the readings (and so terms such as "better manuscripts" are avoided), but they do clearly indicate the sources of the readings that diverge from the traditional text." Price went on to say "By the very nature of a translation it is understood that the words in the main body of a translation represent the content of the traditional text being followed, and that the alter­nate words in the marginal note represent the alternate readings found in the non-traditional texts. The fact that no evaluations were made, as are made in some modern versions, indicates that the editors were not suggesting that any alternate readings were necessarily better than the readings of the traditional text. Thus they do not express nor imply any lack of confidence in the tradi­tional text." The NKJV has plenty of places in the OT where it lists the LXX or Latin Vulgate as places to SUPPORT it's following of the Masoretic text. For example in 1 Samuel 10:1 there is a marginal note that says "so with the MT (Masoretic text), Tg (Targum), Vg (Vulgate); LXX reads...." As you can see, the NKJV REFERENCES the Vulgate and Targum to SUPPORT it's FOLLOWING of the Masoretic text but does mention a variant in the LXX. Can you show me ONE single example where the NKJV disagrees with the KJV in the OT and has a marginal note stating that it followed something other than the Masoretic text? If you can I will gladly admit that I am mistaken and I will stop saying that the NKJV is based on the Masoretic text like the KJV. D.A. Waite in his criticism of the NKJV, criticized it for having a marginal note in Neh 3:20 that says "Zabbai".. Ironically the KJV has the same marginal note! So by criticizing the NKJV, he unintentionally criticizes the KJV! If your accusation is that the NKJV is to be rejected because they fail your criteria of having consulted and looked at other manuscripts/translations than the Masoretic text, to be consistent you would need to also reject the KJV by your own standard that you have put forth.
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