Calvinism

[Jim_Alaska]

So, you say that Brother Mike Is "assuming". Let's look at that God's Holy Spirit actually says.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Based on this Scripture I would have to conclude that it is indeed you who are doing the "assuming". After all, what you said is only your opinion, not Scripture.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Jim_Alaska
spelling

[Ukulelemike]

5 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

Our free will though was greatly affected by the Fall, so we would not even desire to get saved apart from the working of the Holy Spirit towards us!

You are assuming here that gain, it would be unfair and cruel that God did not send same saving grace towards all lost sinners.

On your first point, let me say this: 

Jn 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. "

Jn 3:14, 15 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. "

Jn 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Jesus lights every man that comes into the world, and from Calvary, He drew ALL men to Himself, giving ALL men the ability to believe on Him unto eternal life. No possibility that Jesus' death was only sufficient for some. It is sufficient for all, efficacious for those who believe.

On your second point, the death of Jesus Christ paid the price for all sin, period. Not only some sin, ALL sin. Not 'sins', but "sin". All was paid for. Jesus is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the WORLD. No qualifying additions to make it only the elect of the world. And no, I said it would be cruel of God to demand anyone do something, but not make it possible for them to obey. If we MUST believe unto salvation, then God makes it possible for ALL to believe. If God says, "If you do not believe, then you will go to Hell!" But then, knowingly has made it impossible for most of humanity to believe, THAT is cruel and that is not the God of the Bible, though it surely IS the god of Calvinism.

[Yeshuafan]

15 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

So, you say that Brother Mike Is "assuming". Let's look at that God's Holy Spirit actually says.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Based on this Scripture I would have to conclude that it is indeed you who are doing the "assuming". After all, what you said is only your opinion, not Scripture.

Hebrews said to us that Jesus for the sake of the some, but not for the all, correct?

[Jim_Alaska]

52 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

Hebrews said to us that Jesus for the sake of the some, but not for the all, correct?

An actual Scripture reference would be helpful.

[Bouncing Bill]

1 hour ago, Yeshuafan said:

Hebrews said to us that Jesus for the sake of the some, but not for the all, correct?

Jesus came for all, but only some accept. None were condemned before their birth.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Yeshuafan said:

Hebrews said to us that Jesus for the sake of the some, but not for the all, correct?

Hebrews 2:9 -- "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man."

Furthermore, logic requires that you provide a passage which teaches that God the Son, Jesus the Christ, died ONLY for some.  It is correct that some Biblical contexts focus upon a "subset" of all mankind. (See for example Acts 20:17-35)  Thus in those contexts we may find statements that God the Son, Jesus the Christ, died for that particular "subset." (See for example Acts 20:28)  However, statements to that effect (that Christ died for a particular "subset" of all mankind) do not of themselves indicate that He did not also die for a different "subset" as well.  On the other hand, a statement to the effect that Christ died ONLY for a particular "subset" would indeed indicate that He did not also die for any other possible "subset."  The Calvinistic system of belief teaches that Christ's death was limited ONLY to a particular "subset" of mankind (that is - "the elect").  Thus, in order to stand upon Biblical authority, the Calvinistic system of belief must present at least one passage of Scripture that teaches this "ONLY" principle.  (A passage which teaches that Christ died ONLY for the church, or ONLY for Israel, or ONLY for believers, or ONLY for the elect, etc.)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

19 minutes ago, Bouncing Bill said:

Jesus came for all, but only some accept. None were condemned before their birth.

This is two points correct, and one point incorrect.

Correct - Jesus came for all. (See 1 Timothy 2:3-6; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:2)

Correct - Only some accept. (See Revelation 19:11-15)

Incorrect - None were condemned before their birth. 

Truth - All are under judgment to condemnation through and in Adam (not by their own first act of sinful offense, but by Adam's first act of sinful offense, indeed long before they ever even existed). (See Romans 5:18)

[Yeshuafan]

On 1/5/2021 at 11:04 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is two points correct, and one point incorrect.

Correct - Jesus came for all. (See 1 Timothy 2:3-6; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:2)

Correct - Only some accept. (See Revelation 19:11-15)

Incorrect - None were condemned before their birth. 

Truth - All are under judgment to condemnation through and in Adam (not by their own first act of sinful offense, but by Adam's first act of sinful offense, indeed long before they ever even existed). (See Romans 5:18)

Indeed. for all have sinned in Adam and are guilty before God!

[Danny Carlton]

On 12/20/2020 at 7:11 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

________________________________________

Roman 3:10-12 -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23 -- "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 3:19 -- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every  mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God."

So, here is a question that we non-Calvinists commonly ask in opposition to Calvinism, being turned back at us --

Does "ALL" actually mean "ALL;" and does "NONE" actually mean "NONE"?

You are using the natural ambiguity of language to "force" the Bible to say things it clearly does not say. God told Adam and Eve that on the day they ate the fruit they would die. On that day the process of death began. Often the initiation, the process and the conclusion are referred to by the same noun or verb. Since we understand what is sin, yet do not have the capacity to resist it the curse of sin inhabits us all from birth, but does not actually become sin until we make the choice to sin. The Bible was intended to be read with common sense, not blind devotion to vague concepts that defy logic. God is the God of logic, not the God of confusion.

[Jim_Alaska]

3 hours ago, Danny Carlton said:

but does not actually become sin until we make the choice to sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[1Timothy115]

On 11/23/2020 at 8:33 AM, Baptistsenior said:

I do not agree with Calvanism, but I love Spurgeon because he saturates his sermons with Gods Word.  Too many preachers use a verse or two and alot of opinion in their sermons 

I'm using his devotional, Morning by Morning - Spurgeon for the first time. He has opened up scripture in ways I had not imagined and given great thought applicable in Christian daily life. A lot of scripture in his commentary of the verse and a lot of Pilgrim's Progress - Bunyan referenced. I've heard more than one IFB pastor refer to him as The Prince of Preachers. If or when it comes to the 3 pt. & 5 pt. places in this devotional I'll think of Jesus great commission to me.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 12/19/2020 at 2:17 PM, Danny Carlton said:

It's not until a child reaches the age of accountability that they make a sinful choice, and at that point become a sinner, in need of salvation. Sin is something we do. A sin nature is something we inherit, but doesn't become sin until we make that first choice to sin, understanding that it's wrong. Our sin nature itself does not condemn us, our choice to sin does.

On 12/20/2020 at 8:11 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

On 3/19/2021 at 10:08 PM, Danny Carlton said:

You are using the natural ambiguity of language to "force" the Bible to say things it clearly does not say. God told Adam and Eve that on the day they ate the fruit they would die. On that day the process of death began. Often the initiation, the process and the conclusion are referred to by the same noun or verb. Since we understand what is sin, yet do not have the capacity to resist it the curse of sin inhabits us all from birth, but does not actually become sin until we make the choice to sin. The Bible was intended to be read with common sense, not blind devotion to vague concepts that defy logic. God is the God of logic, not the God of confusion.

Interesting defense, but let us consider the facts -- You are presenting human "logic" and human "common sense" as the basis for doctrine without presenting any Scriptural support at all; whereas I simply provided direct quotations from God's OWN Word.  (Note: I did NOT "force" God's Word to say anything; in my original posting above, I simply quoted what it said and emphasized certain relevant phrases.)  Which one is more sure as a foundation for true doctrine?  As for me, that is an easy choice.  Indeed, as for me I will simply accept the very precise wording that God the Holy Spirit inspired in the Holy Scriptures (which really is NOT ambiguous at all):

1.  Sinners (the wicked) ARE estranged from the very time of the womb.
2.  Sinners (the wicked) actively go astray AS SOON AS they be born, specifically speaking lies.
3.  The sinful offense of the one man Adam caused the judgment of God to come upon ALL to their condemnation.  (Note: It is NOT their own sin that brings this judgment to condemnation, but was Adam's first act of sin.)

By the way, concerning Adam and Eve God said -- "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Yet we recognize according to the Scriptures that they did NOT physically die on that very day.  In fact, they lived out a whole life-span before they physically died.  For this reason, you have presented that the PROCESS of death began on that very day, but NOT the actual moment of death itself.  Indeed, if we consider only the realm of PHYSICAL death, then I would be compelled to agree.  However, there is another realm wherein death occurred - the SPIRITUAL realm.  In fact, in the very day that they sinned, yea in the very moment that they sinned, they IMMEDIATELY died spiritually.  Even so, when we are discussing the matter of sin nature and of condemnation by sin, the context is definitely that of the spiritual realm.  Spiritual death began in the human race with Adam's sin, and is passed down through Adam's sin unto ALL of mankind.  All come into this world already "dead in trespasses and sins."  All require a divine Savior to provide them with spiritual life.  Indeed, God the Son, Jesus the Christ, is that Savior, the only Way, the only Truth, and the only LIFE.  NO ONE whatsoever at all can come unto God as Father, but by God the Son, Jesus the Christ.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

On 11/21/2020 at 9:46 AM, Baptistsenior said:

Why do preachers that condemn Calvanism quote Spurgeon so often?  

Shrugs - I guess because he is right some times ,  and wrong some times ?    Each specific person or time may be different reason ?    Yet if anyone quotes him,   I would not beleive it until testing it first,  the motive and the idea,  and only accept it if it is from God,  in line with God's Word,  not contradicting God's Word nor Purpose in any way.

[Danny Carlton]

On 3/20/2021 at 9:48 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

So you're argument and defense of your viewpoint is that logic is unscriptural and should be avoided by Christians?

On 3/20/2021 at 12:59 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Doesn't address what I wrote.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 3/20/2021 at 10:48 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Interesting defense, but let us consider the facts -- You are presenting human "logic" and human "common sense" as the basis for doctrine without presenting any Scriptural support at all; whereas I simply provided direct quotations from God's OWN Word.  (Note: I did NOT "force" God's Word to say anything; in my original posting above, I simply quoted what it said and emphasized certain relevant phrases.)  Which one is more sure as a foundation for true doctrine?  As for me, that is an easy choice.  Indeed, as for me I will simply accept the very precise wording that God the Holy Spirit inspired in the Holy Scriptures (which really is NOT ambiguous at all):

1.  Sinners (the wicked) ARE estranged from the very time of the womb.
2.  Sinners (the wicked) actively go astray AS SOON AS they be born, specifically speaking lies.
3.  The sinful offense of the one man Adam caused the judgment of God to come upon ALL to their condemnation.  (Note: It is NOT their own sin that brings this judgment to condemnation, but was Adam's first act of sin.)

By the way, concerning Adam and Eve God said -- "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Yet we recognize according to the Scriptures that they did NOT physically die on that very day.  In fact, they lived out a whole life-span before they physically died.  For this reason, you have presented that the PROCESS of death began on that very day, but NOT the actual moment of death itself.  Indeed, if we consider only the realm of PHYSICAL death, then I would be compelled to agree.  However, there is another realm wherein death occurred - the SPIRITUAL realm.  In fact, in the very day that they sinned, yea in the very moment that they sinned, they IMMEDIATED died spiritually.  Even so, when we are discussing the matter of sin nature and of condemnation by sin, the context is definitely that of the spiritual realm.  Spiritual death began in the human race with Adam's sin, and is passed down through Adam's sin unto ALL of mankind.  All come into this world already "dead in trespasses and sins."  All require a divine Savior to provide them with spiritual life.  Indeed, God the Son, Jesus the Christ, is that Savior, the only Way, the only Truth, and the only LIFE.  NO ONE whatsoever at all can come unto God as Father, but by God the Son, Jesus the Christ.

2 hours ago, Danny Carlton said:

So you're argument and defense of your viewpoint is that logic is unscriptural and should be avoided by Christians?

Wrong.  Take note of that which I have emboldened in my quotation above.  I never indicated that human "logic" is unscriptural or that it should be avoided by Christians.  What I indicated is that human "logic" should not be the BASIS for doctrine, especially when NO Scriptural support whatsoever is presented.  What I further indicated is that my own argument and defense is an appeal to direct quotations of God's OWN Word.  Indeed, I indicated that for me "the very precise wording that God the Holy Spirit inspired in the Holy Scriptures" will always be my foundational basis for true doctrine.

In fact, my entire quotation above follows a "logical" train of thought, but ONLY as it is built upon the FOUNDATION of "the very precise wording that God the Holy Spirit inspired in the Holy Scriptures."  Thus I am NOT opposed to human "logic" within the realm of Bible study, but only when it is maintained in its rightful place - ALWAYS in submission to the absolute authority of the Lord our God and His Holy Word.  On the other hand, when human "logic" is employed as an authority over God's Word or in contradiction to God's Word, I WILL oppose it firmly (and sometimes even fiercely).