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False.  My questions are assuming no such things.  They say nothing about "deserving" grace, nor do they say anything whatsoever at all about fairness.  In fact, you have already asked me questions ab

On your first point, let me say this:  Jn 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. " Jn 3:14, 15 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderne

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7: 7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by

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On 12/18/2020 at 9:59 AM, Yeshuafan said:

All born are dead in Adam, but the Lord will do for them what they cannot do for themselves!

You assume the condemnation of sin is some arbitrary attribute, genetically handed down. What we inherit from Adam is both the knowledge of right and wrong coupled with the inability to always choose what is right. That creates sin, and condemns us. It's not until a child reaches the age of accountability that they make a sinful choice, and at that point become a sinner, in need of salvation. Sin is something we do. A sin nature is something we inherit, but doesn't become sin until we make that first choice to sin, understanding that it's wrong. Our sin nature itself does not condemn us, our choice to sin does.

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17 hours ago, Danny Carlton said:

It's not until a child reaches the age of accountability that they make a sinful choice, and at that point become a sinner, in need of salvation. Sin is something we do. A sin nature is something we inherit, but doesn't become sin until we make that first choice to sin, understanding that it's wrong. 

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

17 hours ago, Danny Carlton said:

Our sin nature itself does not condemn us, our choice to sin does.

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

________________________________________

Roman 3:10-12 -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23 -- "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 3:19 -- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every  mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God."

So, here is a question that we non-Calvinists commonly ask in opposition to Calvinism, being turned back at us --

Does "ALL" actually mean "ALL;" and does "NONE" actually mean "NONE"?

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On 12/17/2020 at 7:14 AM, Yeshuafan said:

I believe that all infants are elected by God unto salvation, and I am a Calvinist

If, as you  said; "all infants are elected by God unto salvation", then it would follow that all people are elected to salvation, after all, all people were once babies.

 Following this ridiculous train of thought, then no one would be lost. You said that that was what you believed; I would ask why you believe that; does Scripture indicate that anywhere?

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On 12/19/2020 at 2:17 PM, Danny Carlton said:

You assume the condemnation of sin is some arbitrary attribute, genetically handed down. What we inherit from Adam is both the knowledge of right and wrong coupled with the inability to always choose what is right. That creates sin, and condemns us. It's not until a child reaches the age of accountability that they make a sinful choice, and at that point become a sinner, in need of salvation. Sin is something we do. A sin nature is something we inherit, but doesn't become sin until we make that first choice to sin, understanding that it's wrong. Our sin nature itself does not condemn us, our choice to sin does.

We are all affected by the results of the fall, as all are born as spiritual dead in sin!

On 12/20/2020 at 8:11 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

________________________________________

Roman 3:10-12 -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Romans 3:23 -- "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Romans 3:19 -- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every  mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God."

So, here is a question that we non-Calvinists commonly ask in opposition to Calvinism, being turned back at us --

Does "ALL" actually mean "ALL;" and does "NONE" actually mean "NONE"?

we were all judged by God as being in Adam, so the spiritual death that came upon Him right after he sinned as now happened to all of us, hence the need to be born again!

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14 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

If, as you  said; "all infants are elected by God unto salvation", then it would follow that all people are elected to salvation, after all, all people were once babies.

 Following this ridiculous train of thought, then no one would be lost. You said that that was what you believed; I would ask why you believe that; does Scripture indicate that anywhere?

No, we hold that the Lord knows who will be dying as a baby, and He makes sure that they will be part of His redeemed!

Using your own logic, just as ridiculous to hold that there will be still lost sinner sin Hell who Jesus died in the place of for their sins!

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On 11/21/2020 at 9:46 AM, Baptistsenior said:

Why do preachers that condemn Calvanism quote Spurgeon so often?  

PTL. I Love the little Word "ALL" and the little word "all" is not hard to understand except for some "religion club" members!!

God our Savior,
4 who desires "all" men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for "all", the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:4
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but
is patient toward you,
not wishing for ""any"" to perish but for "all" to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
It's a nice little word isn't it

John 1:7 (KJV 1900)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that ""all ""men through him might believe.
Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ""all""men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ""all"" men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ""all"" men, specially of those that believe.
Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ""all"" men,
Isaiah 45:22 (KJV 1900)
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
For I am God, and there is none else.

How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!!!

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 GOD SAYS=

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved....................

---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------

An example prayer for those that have never talked to God!

Heavenly Father:........................................... ...............................
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of
my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my
heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe
that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and
Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the
day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen

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3 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

No, we hold that the Lord knows who will be dying as a baby, and He makes sure that they will be part of His redeemed!

Using your own logic, just as ridiculous to hold that there will be still lost sinner sin Hell who Jesus died in the place of for their sins!

You don't have any scripural proof for this. It's pure private interpetation. 

Nobody is elected to be saved or damned by the arbitrary will of God. This is nothing but the deluded reasonings of the Protestant Pope, i.e.  John Calvin. This is no different than the RCCs limbo fantasy nonsense. Pure conjecture. You are elected to be conformed to the image of God's dear Son when you accept him as you Lord and Savior. The predestination was set by the foreknowledge of God but it doesn't kick in until after you exercise your freewill by faith in the gospel. Not before. You have the cart before the horse.

The only thing that you can scriptural support concerning babies is that God does not impute sin to them when there is no knowledge of the law whether scriptural or the law of God written on the heart. Therefore, even though the are sinful, as proven by death, sin is not imputed to them therefore they die in innocency. 

Even in this case there is no mention whether babies who die are part of the body of Christ. They end up in heaven is all we know.

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50 minutes ago, SureWord said:

You don't have any scripural proof for this. It's pure private interpetation. 

Nobody is elected to be saved or damned by the arbitrary will of God. This is nothing but the deluded reasonings of the Protestant Pope, i.e.  John Calvin. This is no different than the RCCs limbo fantasy nonsense. Pure conjecture. You are elected to be conformed to the image of God's dear Son when you accept him as you Lord and Savior. The predestination was set by the foreknowledge of God but it doesn't kick in until after you exercise your freewill by faith in the gospel. Not before. You have the cart before the horse.

The only thing that you can scriptural support concerning babies is that God does not impute sin to them when there is no knowledge of the law whether scriptural or the law of God written on the heart. Therefore, even though the are sinful, as proven by death, sin is not imputed to them therefore they die in innocency. 

Even in this case there is no mention whether babies who die are part of the body of Christ. They end up in heaven is all we know.

We are chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world though, and Predestination is a great doctrine to the saved, as gives comfort and assurance!

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Until you use Scripture your ideas are nothing more than your ideas, which, by-the-way, border on the absurd.

Here is an example of using Scripture to prove a biblical point:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 

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8 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

We are chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world though, and Predestination is a great doctrine to the saved, as gives comfort and assurance!

Do you believe God predestined billions of people to go to hell?

I do not believe you really do, at least in your heart, because then you wouldn't be trying to get people to come to your church to hear the gospel. 

Edited by SureWord
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11 hours ago, SureWord said:

Do you believe God predestined billions of people to go to hell?

I do not believe you really do, at least in your heart, because then you wouldn't be trying to get people to come to your church to hear the gospel. 

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

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39 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

By default, if God chooses who will go to Heaven, then he has also chosen who will go to hell, thus taking the choice out of man's hand. 

 

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As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

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20 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

IF this is true (which I myself do NOT accept), then --

1.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was "without the law" BEFORE he was under the law. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any obligation to the law.
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any condemnation by the law.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "legally" in the sight of God the Judge.
     d.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of forgiveness,
           imputation, propitiation, or justification.

2.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was spiritually "alive" BEFORE he was spiritually dead. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a child of darkness, disobedience, and wrath.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "literally" in his spiritual condition.
     d.  There there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of cleansing,
           regeneration, redemption, or reconciliation.

(Note: I myself am compelled to contend that holding this viewpoint is completely contrary and destructive to the Biblical doctrines of mankind's sinfulness and of God's saving grace.  I myself am not willing to do this, in order to solve the "baby problem.")

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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56 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

All who go to Hell freely are choosing to go there, and they loved the darkness more then the Light!

Yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they have any ability whatsoever at all to choose the Light?

Or according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they choose to love the darkness more than the Light because God was unwilling to grant them any ability whatsoever at all to choose otherwise?

(Note: Remember that according to the Calvinistic system of belief, a sinner chooses the Light through faith only AFTER and BECAUSE God grants the ability and the compulsion through His work of regeneration.)

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they have any ability whatsoever at all to choose the Light?

Or according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they choose to love the darkness more than the Light because God was unwilling to grant them any ability whatsoever at all to choose otherwise?

(Note: Remember that according to the Calvinistic system of belief, a sinner chooses the Light through faith only AFTER and BECAUSE God grants the ability and the compulsion through His work of regeneration.)

Even non calvinists would recognize that natural man can do nothing concerning their spiritual state unless and  until God Himself intervenes!

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On 12/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, Yeshuafan said:

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

So then you have the free wiil to reject but not to accept? That's a contradiction.

Again, predestination occurs for those who freely receive the gift. Yes, it is based on foreknowledge but foreknowledge of those who of their own free will exercise faith in the gospel.  It is predestination to conformity of the image of Christ not predestination to salvation.

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On 12/22/2020 at 12:58 PM, Ukulelemike said:

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed. If it was you would end up with:

1) Babies going to hell unless all babies who die were elected, i.e. only elect babies die.

2) All babies being elected until the knowledge of sin and then becoming unelected and falling out of the body of Christ.

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Edited by SureWord
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35 minutes ago, SureWord said:

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed. If it was you would end up with:

1) Babies going to hell unless all babies who die were elected, i.e. only elect babies die.

2) All babies being elected until the knowledge of sin and then becoming unelected and falling out of the body of Christ.

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

We were all in Adam in the Fall, as we all died in Adam, but the saved shall be made alive again in the second Adam. Christ Jesus!

42 minutes ago, SureWord said:

So then you have the free wiil to reject but not to accept? That's a contradiction.

Again, predestination occurs for those who freely receive the gift. Yes, it is based on foreknowledge but foreknowledge of those who of their own free will exercise faith in the gospel.  It is predestination to conformity of the image of Christ not predestination to salvation.

free will is to decide to reject being saved though....

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20 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

Even non calvinists would recognize that natural man can do nothing concerning their spiritual state unless and  until God Himself intervenes!

Indeed, as a non-Calvinist I most certainly WOULD recognize that the "natural man can do nothing concerning [his] spiritual state unless and until God Himself intervenes."  However, the difference in the Calvinistic system of belief and my non-Calvinistic system of belief is the following:

1.  The Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God only intervenes for SOME, and is NOT WILLING to intervene for the rest, and thus those among "the rest" have no ability whatsoever at all ever to choose anything different than to love the darkness rather than the Light.

2.  The non-Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God has promised to and actually does intervene for ALL, by means of His drawing work upon ALL, thereby granting ALL the ability and opportunity to choose the light of Christ over their darkness of sin.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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15 hours ago, SureWord said:

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed.

So then, you have young children who have "no imputed sin" in their "legal" standing before God, but are dead in sin (having a sin nature) in their "literal" spiritual condition.  If this is so, then --

1.  Because they are not sinners in their "legal" standing before God, they have no need for God's saving works of forgiveness, propitiation, imputed righteousness, or justification, all through Christ.

2.  Because they are indeed sinners in their "literal" spiritual condition (having a sin nature), they are still in need for God's saving works of cleaning, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations, all through Christ.  Thus I would ask -- How do young children that die acquire God's saving works of cleansing, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations apart from faith in Christ?

By the way, IF Romans 7:9 is applied to young children before the time of accountability, then it stands in contradiction to your above position.  In Romans 7:9 Paul stated, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came , sin revived, and I died."  In this verse, the apostle did not talk about the "legal" imputation of sin upon his account.  Rather, he talked about the matter of his spiritual life and death.  If he was spiritually alive before some "time of accountability," then he was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," and thus did NOT possess a sin nature.  For those who possess a sin nature are "dead" by spiritual nature.  

(Note: I myself do NOT believe that Romans 7:9 contextually applies to young children before some time of accountability, but that it contextually applies to a brand new believer immediately after conversion.)

 

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

As an additional question, according to God's Word when exactly is the work of the law written in the heart of the human individual?  When exactly does the conscience begin to bear witness?  When exactly does it become natural for the human individual "to do BY NATURE the things contained in the law"?

 

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1.  According to Romans 5:12, upon how many of mankind did death pass?
2.  According to Romans 5:12, how many among mankind have sinned?
3.  According to Romans 5:13, was sin in the world BEFORE the law of Moses?
4.  According to Romans 5:13, when is sin not imputed?
5.  So then, was sin imputed BEFORE the law of Moses?
6.  So then, if sin was indeed imputed before the law of Moses, by what law was it imputed?
7.  So then, if sin was not imputed before the law of Moses, why did death reign from Adam to Moses?
8.  So then, can death reign apart from sinfulness and/or imputed sin?
9.  So then, is death the very consequence for imputed sin? (See Romans 5:12, 15, 21)

10.  According to Romans 5:15, how were many made to "be dead," by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
11.  According to Romans 5:17, how did death come to reign upon all men (as per Romans 5:12), by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
12.  According to Romans 5:18, upon how many of mankind did judgment come unto condemnation (which are legal terms of accountability)?
13.  According to Romans 5:18, how did judgment unto condemnation come upon mankind, by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
14.  According to Romans 5:19, how are we "made sinners," by the consequence of our own disobedience, or by the consequence of someone else's disobedience?

Here then is the truth -- NOT because of my own sin, BUT because of Adam's first sin, I am made (at my beginning) a sinner and made (at my beginning) to "be dead," having death reigning over me and having judgment unto condemnation upon me.  This was already true for me BEFORE my own first act of sin, and my acts of sin only add to the abundance of this spiritual problem.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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On 12/23/2020 at 10:31 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, as a non-Calvinist I most certainly WOULD recognize that the "natural man can do nothing concerning [his] spiritual state unless and until God Himself intervenes."  However, the difference in the Calvinistic system of belief and my non-Calvinistic system of belief is the following:

1.  The Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God only intervenes for SOME, and is NOT WILLING to intervene for the rest, and thus those among "the rest" have no ability whatsoever at all ever to choose anything different than to love the darkness rather than the Light.

2.  The non-Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God has promised to and actually does intervene for ALL, by means of His drawing work upon ALL, thereby granting ALL the ability and opportunity to choose the light of Christ over their darkness of sin.

Yes, but that would be due to us seeing God has provided definite salvation for some, His elect, while you would see it as potential salvation for all depending on how they react!

On 12/23/2020 at 11:33 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, you have young children who have "no imputed sin" in their "legal" standing before God, but are dead in sin (having a sin nature) in their "literal" spiritual condition.  If this is so, then --

1.  Because they are not sinners in their "legal" standing before God, they have no need for God's saving works of forgiveness, propitiation, imputed righteousness, or justification, all through Christ.

2.  Because they are indeed sinners in their "literal" spiritual condition (having a sin nature), they are still in need for God's saving works of cleaning, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations, all through Christ.  Thus I would ask -- How do young children that die acquire God's saving works of cleansing, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations apart from faith in Christ?

By the way, IF Romans 7:9 is applied to young children before the time of accountability, then it stands in contradiction to your above position.  In Romans 7:9 Paul stated, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came , sin revived, and I died."  In this verse, the apostle did not talk about the "legal" imputation of sin upon his account.  Rather, he talked about the matter of his spiritual life and death.  If he was spiritually alive before some "time of accountability," then he was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," and thus did NOT possess a sin nature.  For those who possess a sin nature are "dead" by spiritual nature.  

(Note: I myself do NOT believe that Romans 7:9 contextually applies to young children before some time of accountability, but that it contextually applies to a brand new believer immediately after conversion.)

 

As an additional question, according to God's Word when exactly is the work of the law written in the heart of the human individual?  When exactly does the conscience begin to bear witness?  When exactly does it become natural for the human individual "to do BY NATURE the things contained in the law"?

 

1.  According to Romans 5:12, upon how many of mankind did death pass?
2.  According to Romans 5:12, how many among mankind have sinned?
3.  According to Romans 5:13, was sin in the world BEFORE the law of Moses?
4.  According to Romans 5:13, when is sin not imputed?
5.  So then, was sin imputed BEFORE the law of Moses?
6.  So then, if sin was indeed imputed before the law of Moses, by what law was it imputed?
7.  So then, if sin was not imputed before the law of Moses, why did death reign from Adam to Moses?
8.  So then, can death reign apart from sinfulness and/or imputed sin?
9.  So then, is death the very consequence for imputed sin? (See Romans 5:12, 15, 21)

10.  According to Romans 5:15, how were many made to "be dead," by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
11.  According to Romans 5:17, how did death come to reign upon all men (as per Romans 5:12), by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
12.  According to Romans 5:18, upon how many of mankind did judgment come unto condemnation (which are legal terms of accountability)?
13.  According to Romans 5:18, how did judgment unto condemnation come upon mankind, by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
14.  According to Romans 5:19, how are we "made sinners," by the consequence of our own disobedience, or by the consequence of someone else's disobedience?

Here then is the truth -- NOT because of my own sin, BUT because of Adam's first sin, I am made (at my beginning) a sinner and made (at my beginning) to "be dead," having death reigning over me and having judgment unto condemnation upon me.  This was already true for me BEFORE my own first act of sin, and my acts of sin only add to the abundance of this spiritual problem.

God chooses to save children and infants and those unable to receive faith such as mentally disabled to become saved due to His grace and mercy, doing for them what cannot do otherwise!

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1 hour ago, Yeshuafan said:

God chooses to save children and infants and those unable to receive faith such as mentally disabled to become saved due to His grace and mercy, doing for them what cannot do otherwise!

How about some Scripture for this that you said, instead of just submitting what you believe?

Just because it appeals to what you would like to believe happens, does not make it so.

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On 12/23/2020 at 6:34 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

IF this is true (which I myself do NOT accept), then --

1.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was "without the law" BEFORE he was under the law. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any obligation to the law.
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any condemnation by the law.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "legally" in the sight of God the Judge.
     d.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of forgiveness,
           imputation, propitiation, or justification.

2.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was spiritually "alive" BEFORE he was spiritually dead. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a child of darkness, disobedience, and wrath.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "literally" in his spiritual condition.
     d.  There there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of cleansing,
           regeneration, redemption, or reconciliation.

(Note: I myself am compelled to contend that holding this viewpoint is completely contrary and destructive to the Biblical doctrines of mankind's sinfulness and of God's saving grace.  I myself am not willing to do this, in order to solve the "baby problem.")

Then what else does he mean? Clearly in his own words, he says he was without the law, and that, at some point, the law came, and when that happened, he died. When was Paul/Saul, born under the law, circumcised the 8th day, brought up under the feet of Gamaliel, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, "without the law", except when he could not understand the law, and the consequence of sin? He even clarifies it, by saying that he didn't understand lust, except that the law said 'Thou shalt not covet' How could he not know THAT? Simply, and the only possible answer, is he didn't know when he was too young to understand. But when the law, or the understanding of the law, came, THEN sin revived, (it was present, but dormant, even dead), and when it revived, he died, and fell under the curse of the law.

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1 hour ago, Yeshuafan said:

Yes, but that would be due to us seeing God has provided definite salvation for some, His elect, . . .

This a correct assessment of the Calvinistic system of belief as far as it goes; however, it does not include the point that I have been seeking to emphasize - that in the Calvinistic system of belief, while God has graciously provided "definite salvation for some," He has been completely UNWILLING to be gracious in providing any means whatsoever at all in any way for the rest to experience salvation.  Yes, "the rest" (the Calvinist's "non-elect") may choose the darkness rather than the light, but it is because God has NOT been willing to provide them with any other choice whatsoever at all.  In the Calvinistic system of belief, the All-Sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth gave "the rest" ONLY one choice, so they had/have NO OTHER OPTION, but to choose it.  Granting the ability to choose differently is God's sovereign responsibility, since no human sinner can in any way acquire this ability on his or her own; yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, God has utterly refused to grant this ability unto the great majority of human sinners.  In the Calvinistic system of belief, God created them as sinners in Adam, and then was UNWILLING to provide them with any grace to be saved from their sinfulness.  Indeed, although the Calvinistic God is wonderfully gracious to a few, his grace is fairly small since it does not encompass the great majority of humanity.

 

1 hour ago, Yeshuafan said:

 . . . while you would see it as potential salvation for all depending on how they react!

 

Correct, if by "potential" salvation, you mean the offer of and draw unto salvation through faith in Christ.  In my system of belief, their IS a human prerequisite to the promise of eternal salvation.

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2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

How about some Scripture for this that you said, instead of just submitting what you believe?

Just because it appeals to what you would like to believe happens, does not make it so.

David would be going to meet his deceased son, and Jesus had the little children come unto Him, and God said that in Ninevah were many little ones who did not yet know right from wrong!

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This a correct assessment of the Calvinistic system of belief as far as it goes; however, it does not include the point that I have been seeking to emphasize - that in the Calvinistic system of belief, while God has graciously provided "definite salvation for some," He has been completely UNWILLING to be gracious in providing any means whatsoever at all in any way for the rest to experience salvation.  Yes, "the rest" (the Calvinist's "non-elect") may choose the darkness rather than the light, but it is because God has NOT been willing to provide them with any other choice whatsoever at all.  In the Calvinistic system of belief, the All-Sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth gave "the rest" ONLY one choice, so they had/have NO OTHER OPTION, but to choose it.  Granting the ability to choose differently is God's sovereign responsibility, since no human sinner can in any way acquire this ability on his or her own; yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, God has utterly refused to grant this ability unto the great majority of human sinners.  In the Calvinistic system of belief, God created them as sinners in Adam, and then was UNWILLING to provide them with any grace to be saved from their sinfulness.  Indeed, although the Calvinistic God is wonderfully gracious to a few, his grace is fairly small since it does not encompass the great majority of humanity.

 

Correct, if by "potential" salvation, you mean the offer of and draw unto salvation through faith in Christ.  In my system of belief, their IS a human prerequisite to the promise of eternal salvation.

Does God owe salvation to any lost sinner though?

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This a correct assessment of the Calvinistic system of belief as far as it goes; however, it does not include the point that I have been seeking to emphasize - that in the Calvinistic system of belief, while God has graciously provided "definite salvation for some," He has been completely UNWILLING to be gracious in providing any means whatsoever at all in any way for the rest to experience salvation.  Yes, "the rest" (the Calvinist's "non-elect") may choose the darkness rather than the light, but it is because God has NOT been willing to provide them with any other choice whatsoever at all.  In the Calvinistic system of belief, the All-Sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth gave "the rest" ONLY one choice, so they had/have NO OTHER OPTION, but to choose it.  Granting the ability to choose differently is God's sovereign responsibility, since no human sinner can in any way acquire this ability on his or her own; yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, God has utterly refused to grant this ability unto the great majority of human sinners.  In the Calvinistic system of belief, God created them as sinners in Adam, and then was UNWILLING to provide them with any grace to be saved from their sinfulness.  Indeed, although the Calvinistic God is wonderfully gracious to a few, his grace is fairly small since it does not encompass the great majority of humanity.

 

Correct, if by "potential" salvation, you mean the offer of and draw unto salvation through faith in Christ.  In my system of belief, their IS a human prerequisite to the promise of eternal salvation.

Does God owe salvation to any lost sinner though?

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4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Then what else does he mean? Clearly in his own words, he says he was without the law, and that, at some point, the law came, and when that happened, he died. When was Paul/Saul, born under the law, circumcised the 8th day, brought up under the feet of Gamaliel, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, "without the law", except when he could not understand the law, and the consequence of sin? He even clarifies it, by saying that he didn't understand lust, except that the law said 'Thou shalt not covet' How could he not know THAT? (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

So, the real question here is - What does the phrase "without the law" mean in the context of Romans 9:7?

First, let us take note that Paul did NOT say - "Without the understanding of the law."  Rather, under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, he said - "Without the law."  Yet as you acknowledged above, as a Jew Paul/Saul was "born under the law."  Furthermore, let us take note that Paul did NOT say - "When the understanding of the commandment came."  Rather, under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, he said - "When the commandment [itself] came." 

Second, let us consider the "without the law" type statements that the apostle Paul had previously presented in the epistle to the Romans, leading up to his Holy Spirit inspired comment in Romans 9:7:

Romans 2:12-15 -- "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.)"  In verse 14 we find the Gentiles presented as "having not the law;" however, this could not apply unto Paul/Saul in Romans 7:9, since Paul/Saul was not a Gentile, but a Jew.  Nevertheless even in the case of the Gentiles, "which have not the law," we are informed that they have "the work of the law written IN their hearts," in relation to their "conscience;" and this they appear to have "by nature" (that is -- as a part of their natural creation).  Thus the opening truth of verse 12 is substantiated.  People can, and many have, sinned "without law."  Those who have sinned "without law" still have no excuse, but SHALL "perish without law."  The direct possession and understanding of the law is not relevant to their accountability, guiltiness, judgment, and condemnation.  The reason is that hearing (possessing and understanding the law) is not what matters with God.  Rather, what matters with God is doing or breaking the law.  Furthermore, the law "written in their hearts" is sufficient for their accountability.

Romans 3:21-24 -- "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."  Herein we learn that "the righteousness of God" is manifested/imputed "without the law," that the works of law are in no way beneficial for the justification of sinners.  Furthermore, we learn that this "righteousness of God" is imputed ONLY "by faith of Jesus Christ," and that it is imputed "unto all ["legally" concerning our record in heaven] and upon all ["literally" concerning our spiritual regeneration] them that believe."  Finally, we learn the reason that "the righteousness of God" (divine justification) is "without the law," but must be "by faith of Jesus Christ" unto and upon all who believe, and thus by God's grace "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."  This reason is because there is NO difference among the individuals of humanity; for ALL among humanity "have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."  Yet in our present discussion this raises the question -- Does the word "ALL" in Romans 3:23 include the youngest of children?  Have the youngest of children also sinned and come short of God's glory?  If the answer is "yes" (which it seems to be according to the truths of Romans 3:9-12, 19, 23), then how can they be justified apart from "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;" and then how can they receive this gracious justification apart from "the faith of Jesus Christ"?

Romans 4:14-16 -- "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.  Therefore it is of faith, that is might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all."  Herein we learn that the promise to Abraham was not through the law, but was through faith, so that it could be administered by God's grace through faith.  Yet in verse 15 we learn that where no law is (in existence), "there is no [possibility for] transgression."  Indeed, if no law actually exists, then it is impossible to break a non-existent law.  However, this statement does NOT speak about no "understanding" of the law.  Rather, it ONLY speaks about no "existence" of a law.  On the other hand, the existence of law brings obligation for obedience to that law; and ANY breaking of that law brings condemnation by that law.  Thereby "the law worketh wrath."  So then, when did God's law of righteousness first begin with mankind?  When does obligation to God's law of righteousness first begin for each human individual?  When can God first classify a human individual as having sinned (as having transgressed his law of righteousness)?  When is the work of God's law of righteousness first written in the heart of a human individual?  Note that God's own Word tells us that "all are under sin," and that "there is none righteous" no, not even a single one, and that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," and that "all the world" stands "guilty before God," and that judgement has come "upon all men to condemnation," and that "the wicked are estranged from the womb," and that the wicked "go astray as soon as they be born," and that we all like sheep "have gone astray" from God.

Romans 5:12-14 -- "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come)."  In verse 13 we again encounter the truth that no sin is imputed "when there is [exists] no law."  Yet again we take notice that this does NOT speak about when there is no understanding of law.  Rather, this ONLY speaks about when there is no existence of law.  Thus the very moment that law exists, there is the possibility for sin to be imputed.  So then, when DID sin enter the world?  At the first man Adam's first sin.  And when did death, the curse of sin," enter the world?  At the first man Adam's first sin.  And how many of Adam's offspring have sinned since then?  "ALL have sinned."  So, upon how man of Adam's offspring has the curse of death passed?  "Upon ALL."  Yet the law of Moses was not revealed for a multitude of years after Adam.  So then, was there no sin in the world until that revelation of the law?  No, "sin WAS in the world" even before the revelation of Moses' law, even from the very time of Adam's first sin.  In fact, the curse of sin "reigned from Adam to Moses."  How then could sin be in the world and the curse of sin reign before the revelation of the law?  It could be because obligation to God's law of righteousness existed before the direct revelation of Moses' law.  In fact, as we have previously learned from Romans 2:14-15, the work of God's law of righteousness has been written in the hearts of humanity "by nature" from the very creation of Adam.  Thus in God's creation and from God's creation, God's law of righteousness has ALWAYS been in existence.

Romans 6:14 -- "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."  Herein we find that believers are "not under the law," but under God's grace.  For this reason there is no longer any need for sin to have dominion over our hearts and lives.  Indeed, this statement is given as a conclusion for that which has been presented throughout Romans 6:2-13.  Therein we learn that as believers our "old man [our old spiritually dead spirit] IS crucified with Christ," and that we have been spiritually raised up with Christ to "walk in newness of life."  Indeed, we learn that through this process of spiritual death and resurrection with Christ, we are "freed from sin."  Yeah, we learn that we are to reckon ourselves in Christ and through Christ "to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God."  Therefore, we are not let sin "reign in" our mortal bodies, that we should "obey it in the lusts thereof," neither yield our members "as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin;" but now we are to yield ourselves "unto God, as those that are ALIVE FROM THE DEAD," and to yield our members "as instruments of righteousness unto God."  Thus in the context of Romans 6:14, not being under the law, but under God's grace, is equivalent to being born again, wherein we are spiritually dead with Christ unto sin, and alive with Christ unto God to walk in newness of righteous life.

Romans 7:4-6 (the immediate context of Romans 7:9) -- "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."  First, let us take note that this is the immediate context for Romans 7:9, and that it employs "life" and "death" language in relation to the law just as does Romans 7:9.  Furthermore, let us take note that Romans 7 flows directly out of Romans 6, wherein the truth of the regenerate Christian life and of freedom from sin and the law are central to the context.  So then, when are we delivered from the law, and thus free from the law, and thus without the law?  When we "become dead to the law by the body of Christ," (that is - by being spiritually crucified and raised up with Him).  And what is the driving purpose for us to know that we are "dead to the law" in Christ and "delivered from the law" through Christ?  It is that "we should bring forth fruit unto God" and "should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter [law]."  In our lost flesh "the motions of sin" were much at work, and those "motions of sins" took occasion in us "by the law."  Even so, those "motions of sins" worked in our lost condition "to bring forth fruit unto death."  Yet now that we are saved, the Lord our God has set us free spiritually, so that we should walk in life and righteousness, not in sin and death.

So then, going forward in Romans 7:7 - 8:17, three great questions will be answered:

1.  Is God's law of righteousness a "bad" thing?  Answer - NO!  God's law of righteousness is NOT a "bad" thing, but is the very standard of God's own righteousness.  However, because God's law of righteousness is NOT able to empower obedience, it is only capable of revealing obligation and then of pronouncing condemnation when that obligation is broken.  Thus God's law of righteousness should NOT be our dependence for living in righteousness.

2.  If as a believer I am free from sin, why do I still commit sin?  Answer - Because as a believer, although there is no longer any sinful character whatsoever at all in my spirit, I still retain the principle of sin in my soul.  In Romans 7-8 that principle of sin in my soul is called "the flesh," and can be defined as the principle of selfishness that still exists within my soul while I live in this life on the earth.

3.  How as a believer can I walk in the freedom of sin that I have been granted?  Answer - NOT through the power of God's law of righteousness, which has NO power to help me in this regard, BUT through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, who can indeed empower me to have victory over my indwelling sinful "flesh" and thereby to "fulfill the righteousness of law."

Now then, what about Romans 7:9?  Paul was a Jew, and thus was not "without the law" by means of being a Gentile; for as a Jew he was actually "made under the law."  Paul was a human from the line of Adam, and thus was not "without the law" by created nature; for he had the work of God's law written in his heart, just as any other human.  Paul was a part of this world, and thus was not without the "existence" of God's law of righteousness; for God's law of righteousness has existed in this world since the beginning.  Paul was a believer, and thus WAS "without the law" in and through Christ his Savior, delivered and freed from the law, born again in life and righteousness.  Yet shortly after his salvation Paul found another law in his members.  Indeed, even as a believer, born again in Christ, the law of sin and death ("the flesh") was still working in his soul.  Through faith in Christ he had been immediately brought to spiritual life.  But then . . . The obligation of God's law of righteousness still remained.  The power of the sinful "flesh" still remained.  The weakness of the law to empower unto righteousness still remained.  Shorty after conversion, sin revived through the influence of "the flesh;" and the process of spiritual death continued to work, not upon his spirit, but yet upon his soul and behavior.

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42 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

Does God owe salvation to any lost sinner though?

Does God owe salvation to any lost sinner though?

NO!  God does not owe anyone the way of salvation, for indeed any and all salvation is by the gift of God's grace.  However, God IS obligated by His own character to be faithful unto His own Word on the matter (whatever His own Word on the matter may be).

However, my questions are NOT about God's obligations, per se.  Rather, my questions are about whether the Calvinistic system of belief presents the character of God correctly.  Furthermore, my questions are about whether you yourself as a Calvinist are willing to acknowledge the truth of your own system, that is --

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, you have a God who is UNWILLING to make a way of salvation for the great majority of sinful humanity?

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, you have a God who is NOT GRACIOUS to a great majority of sinful humanity?

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, the great majority of sinful humanity chooses darkness rather than the light simply because your God has not granted them any other option?

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, the great majority of sinful humanity were sovereignly made by God for the express purpose that He might have multitudes upon whom never to show any grace, but only ever to pour out His eternal judgment and wrath?

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

NO!  God does not owe anyone the way of salvation, for indeed any and all salvation is by the gift of God's grace.  However, God IS obligated by His own character to be faithful unto His own Word on the matter (whatever His own Word on the matter may be).

However, my questions are NOT about God's obligations, per se.  Rather, my questions are about whether the Calvinistic system of belief presents the character of God correctly.  Furthermore, my questions are about whether you yourself as a Calvinist are willing to acknowledge the truth of your own system, that is --

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, you have a God who is UNWILLING to make a way of salvation for the great majority of sinful humanity?

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, you have a God who is NOT GRACIOUS to a great majority of sinful humanity?

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, the great majority of sinful humanity chooses darkness rather than the light simply because your God has not granted them any other option?

Are you, "Yeshuafan," willing to acknowledge that according to your system of belief, the great majority of sinful humanity were sovereignly made by God for the express purpose that He might have multitudes upon whom never to show any grace, but only ever to pour out His eternal judgment and wrath?

IF the answer is yes to all of the above, does that make God out to be not fair then?

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1 minute ago, Yeshuafan said:

IF the answer is yes to all of the above, does that make God out to be not fair then?

No. Rather, if the answer is "yes" to all four of my above questions, I would contend that it makes the CALVINIST'S God out to be in contradiction with the revelation of God's Word concerning the true God's gracious nature.  

_________________________________________

Now, I do find it most interesting that you, as a Calvinist, continue to avoid giving a direct answer to these questions.  In the questions that you have asked of me, I have given direct answers.  Why?  Because I hold to my system of belief with conviction and without shame.  On the other hand, it almost seems as if you either are ashamed concerning the ungraciousness of the God in which you believe or are ashamed concerning the realities of the system unto which you hold.  

You see, IF I am correct that the Calvinistic system of belief presents the character of God incorrectly, then the Calvinistic system of belief falls under the judgment of God for speaking contrary to His true character.  In addition, I also hold that the Calvinistic system of belief presents a gospel that is contrary to God's Word; and IF I am correct about that, then the Calvinistic system of belief falls under the curse of God for presenting a false gospel.  (Indeed, these are two of the primary reasons why I will oppose the Calvinistic system of belief with tenacity.)

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17 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No. Rather, if the answer is "yes" to all four of my above questions, I would contend that it makes the CALVINIST'S God out to be in contradiction with the revelation of God's Word concerning the true God's gracious nature.  

_________________________________________

Now, I do find it most interesting that you, as a Calvinist, continue to avoid giving a direct answer to these questions.  In the questions that you have asked of me, I have given direct answers.  Why?  Because I hold to my system of belief with conviction and without shame.  On the other hand, it almost seems as if you either are ashamed concerning the ungraciousness of the God in which you believe or are ashamed concerning the realities of the system unto which you hold.  

You see, IF I am correct that the Calvinistic system of belief presents the character of God incorrectly, then the Calvinistic system of belief falls under the judgment of God for speaking contrary to His true character.  In addition, I also hold that the Calvinistic system of belief presents a gospel that is contrary to God's Word; and IF I am correct about that, then the Calvinistic system of belief falls under the curse of God for presenting a false gospel.  (Indeed, these are two of the primary reasons why I will oppose the Calvinistic system of belief with tenacity.)

The calvinistic Gospel gives the biblical account of the Lord Jesus death being an atonement provided for a real and sure salvation for those to whom the father intended to save. The alternative is not really good news, as lost sinners have no capacity in and by their own free will to make the decision to receive Jesus as their Savior and Lord.

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20 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

The calvinistic Gospel gives the biblical account of the Lord Jesus death being an atonement provided for a real and sure salvation for those to whom the father intended to save. The alternative is not really good news, as lost sinners have no capacity in and by their own free will to make the decision to receive Jesus as their Savior and Lord.

Indeed, the Calvinistic gospel LIMITS the purpose of Christ's sacrifice for only a FEW, and thus is contrary to the true gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in God's Holy Word.  Furthermore, the Calvinistic gospel places the divine work of regeneration BEFORE the decision of faith, and thus is also contrary to the true gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in God's Holy Word.

On the other hand, "the alternative" (the system of belief to which I hold) indicates that indeed lost sinners have "NO capacity" whatsoever at all in and by their own sinful nature "to make the decision" of faith in Jesus the Christ as their Savior, BUT ALSO presents the GOOD NEWS that by means of God the Father's drawing work, which He administers upon EVERY individual sinner, God Himself graciously and supernaturally grants the ability for sinners to willingly make the decision of faith in Jesus Christ as personal Savior (but ONLY at those periods of time wherein God the Father is actually engaged in the work of drawing upon that individual).

The difference between us is NOT concerning the complete depravity of sinful humanity in and of themselves.  Rather, the difference between us concerns the definition of the means whereby the Lord our God and Savior "intervenes," and the extent of humanity for which He engages that "work of intervention."

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I also take notice that you STILL have not chosen to give direct answers to the questions that I have asked of you.

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