Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

[Alan]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi Alan,

No, just some one who studies eschatology. The numbers are there along with God`s festivals for Israel.

Marilyn.

I do not believe that for a moment. In my eyes you have been playing word games, dancing around our questions, giving us ambiguous answers, and so forth.

Jordan,

The sign gifts of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 have ceased.

Alan

[Marilyn C]

10 minutes ago, Alan said:

I do not believe that for a moment. In my eyes you have been playing word games, dancing around our questions, giving us ambiguous answers, and so forth.

Jordan,

The sign gifts of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 have ceased.

Alan

Hi Alan,

I can understand that we are seeing things differently, and sorry that you think I have been playing games. That would be quite disrespectful not only to you but to God`s word and the listeners. Hope we can discuss perhaps on other topics,

regards, Marilyn.

[DaveW]

Well that certainly explains why she is so vehemently opposed to what the Bible actually says in Jordan's originally questioned passage.

[DaveW]

58 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi Alan,

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

Marilyn.

Interesting set of answers considering number 3 in light of Alan's post.

I wonder which of the other answers are "reinterpreted" from fact?

I wonder which of her other statements are stated in terms as "correct" as her answer in number 3?

And that answer is a pretty strange "mistake" to make, considering the precise nature of question 3.

[DaveW]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Alan,

I can understand that we are seeing things differently, and sorry that you think I have been playing games.

Seeing things differently is answering "No" to a question to which the answer is clearly "Yes"?

Is it any wonder that he thinks you are playing games?

There is "seeing things differently" and there is this......

[Jordan Kurecki]

Well this thread opened up a whole can of worms..

Edited March 18, 2018 by Jordan Kurecki

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Well this thread opened up a whole can of worms..

Brother Jordan,

At the present I am still planning, as time will permit, to respond unto your original posting (as per your private request).  However, at present I am not planning to deal with the "can" or the "worms" that have already occurred.

[Jordan Kurecki]

30 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Jordan,

At the present I am still planning, as time will permit, to respond unto your original posting (as per your private request).  However, at present I am not planning to deal with the "can" or the "worms" that have already occurred.

Brother that is fine. I’m not really interested in the can of worms that has been opened. 

[Ronda]

Much of the problem comes from not rightly dividing God's word. 

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" (1 Cor.1:22)

We see also in Mark 16:17-18 the following:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Sadly, many have erroneously believed that the sign gifts applies to themselves in this current church/grace age. After all it does say "And these signs shall follow them that believe". We believe, right? Yet that scripture is not written about us church/grace-age believers.
There have been many who have attempted to force these sign gifts to fit in the grace/church age and claim them (erroneously) for themselves. Those who've taken up serpents (and been bitten and died). Those who drink poison ("any deadly thing") and have died also. Those who have tried to claim they have the"gift of healing" (and notice that there is nothing there requiring the recipient of the healing to have faith... rather instead that "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Not maybe recover, not might recover, not recover if they have enough faith, no... "they shall recover" (no doubt about it). If they truly had that gift they would go to any given hospital and heal the children in cancer wards. And if they had the gift of healing then those children would definitely recover, not maybe reocver, but "shall recover".

NONE have the sign gifts to do such things today. Isn't it interesting that the sign gifts that are claimed by charlatans today are those which cannot be proven. They claim to be able to speak in tongues (yet don't even follow the scriptural rules for the time when sign gifts were in effect, prior to the canon of scripture being complete).  

What were those rules for that time period? Look at 1 Cor.14:27-28 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

The holy roller, name it and claim it, blab it and grab it crowd doesn't even follow scriptural mandate for speaking in tongues. (Regardless of the fact that it's no longer possible today). Every video I've seen of those who CLAIM they can speak in tongues is a disorganized melee of babbling incoherently by dozens of people. Definitely more than three persons. None interpreting. No order, but chaos. 

1 Cor.14:33 (same chapter) "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Now we know that they truly cannot speak in tongues. The sign gifts were meant for Israel. It was the Jews who required signs. Those sign gifts ended when the canon of scripture was perfected and closed. 

1 Cor.13:8 tells us that there would come a time when prophesying would fail, when tongues would cease. Verse 10 tells us that "...that which is in part shall be done away." When? When "that which is perfect is come". What which is perfect? God's word in full, which ended with the Revelation of Christ given to John on the isle of Patmos. There is no reason for additional "prophesy" since His prophetic word is perfect and complete.

Speaking of false prophecy: How sad that someone would actually set a date, make a calendar, and claim an actual date.  Though not surprising given the unsound doctrine that's being accepted today in the perilous last days. Harold Camping move over, looks like Marilyn has a new date set! Maybe she can get a video going like Scottie Clarke did last year (claiming Sept 23rd, then keep moving the date when it doesn't happen). Do these people realize how they give a black eye to God's word? How when they lead both unbelievers and babes in Christ into buying these false dates, when the date comes and goes (as it always does) then those who are "...tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive". 

If it were up to some of these holy rollers they would be attempting to add to the canon of scripture their latest "dreams and visions" nonsense from the devil (2 Cor.11:14-15). Every other day is another quack claiming to be a "prophet", calling themselves an "apostle", or other heresies.  Too many to even refute now days. No matter, after the first or second admonition reject (Titus 3:9-11). These really are the perilous last days (2 Tim.3:1-7, 13), so we can expect those who are deceived to continue to wax worse and worse. 

What gifts remains today?

1 Cor.13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Maranatha!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Ronda,

If you or any one cares to look at my blog series of the `Tribulation Calendar`(Worthy Christian Forum) then they will see that I have NOT made a date for the rapture. That is NOT in God`s word, What I have done is put all of the numbers concerning Israel and the nations on a time line and then fitted then in to God`s festivals. That is just a study of eschatology using ONLY God`s numbers and His festivals.

Some people jump to conclusions and haven`t even read what I wrote. The dates (plural) are for the various events that God gives numbers for in His word.

regards, Marilyn.

BTW Sorry Jordan that your thread ha been side tracked by `witch hunters.`  

[wretched]

18 hours ago, Ronda said:

Much of the problem comes from not rightly dividing God's word. 

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" (1 Cor.1:22)

We see also in Mark 16:17-18 the following:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Sadly, many have erroneously believed that the sign gifts applies to themselves in this current church/grace age. After all it does say "And these signs shall follow them that believe". We believe, right? Yet that scripture is not written about us church/grace-age believers.
There have been many who have attempted to force these sign gifts to fit in the grace/church age and claim them (erroneously) for themselves. Those who've taken up serpents (and been bitten and died). Those who drink poison ("any deadly thing") and have died also. Those who have tried to claim they have the"gift of healing" (and notice that there is nothing there requiring the recipient of the healing to have faith... rather instead that "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Not maybe recover, not might recover, not recover if they have enough faith, no... "they shall recover" (no doubt about it). If they truly had that gift they would go to any given hospital and heal the children in cancer wards. And if they had the gift of healing then those children would definitely recover, not maybe reocver, but "shall recover".

NONE have the sign gifts to do such things today. Isn't it interesting that the sign gifts that are claimed by charlatans today are those which cannot be proven. They claim to be able to speak in tongues (yet don't even follow the scriptural rules for the time when sign gifts were in effect, prior to the canon of scripture being complete).  

What were those rules for that time period? Look at 1 Cor.14:27-28 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

The holy roller, name it and claim it, blab it and grab it crowd doesn't even follow scriptural mandate for speaking in tongues. (Regardless of the fact that it's no longer possible today). Every video I've seen of those who CLAIM they can speak in tongues is a disorganized melee of babbling incoherently by dozens of people. Definitely more than three persons. None interpreting. No order, but chaos. 

1 Cor.14:33 (same chapter) "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Now we know that they truly cannot speak in tongues. The sign gifts were meant for Israel. It was the Jews who required signs. Those sign gifts ended when the canon of scripture was perfected and closed. 

1 Cor.13:8 tells us that there would come a time when prophesying would fail, when tongues would cease. Verse 10 tells us that "...that which is in part shall be done away." When? When "that which is perfect is come". What which is perfect? God's word in full, which ended with the Revelation of Christ given to John on the isle of Patmos. There is no reason for additional "prophesy" since His prophetic word is perfect and complete.

Speaking of false prophecy: How sad that someone would actually set a date, make a calendar, and claim an actual date.  Though not surprising given the unsound doctrine that's being accepted today in the perilous last days. Harold Camping move over, looks like Marilyn has a new date set! Maybe she can get a video going like Scottie Clarke did last year (claiming Sept 23rd, then keep moving the date when it doesn't happen). Do these people realize how they give a black eye to God's word? How when they lead both unbelievers and babes in Christ into buying these false dates, when the date comes and goes (as it always does) then those who are "...tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive". 

If it were up to some of these holy rollers they would be attempting to add to the canon of scripture their latest "dreams and visions" nonsense from the devil (2 Cor.11:14-15). Every other day is another quack claiming to be a "prophet", calling themselves an "apostle", or other heresies.  Too many to even refute now days. No matter, after the first or second admonition reject (Titus 3:9-11). These really are the perilous last days (2 Tim.3:1-7, 13), so we can expect those who are deceived to continue to wax worse and worse. 

What gifts remains today?

1 Cor.13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Maranatha!

A necessary rebuke IMO

[No Nicolaitans]

My concern is this...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly proclaimed that no man knows of that day or hour; in which, he will return...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly compared himself to the master of the house and explicitly said that his servants didn't know if he would return at "even", "midnight", the "cockcrowing", or "morning"...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly said that he would return when we think not...

I would be overtly hesitant to proclaim that I believed that he would return upon a certain day...and furthermore...upon a certain day at evening.

[Jordan Kurecki]

23 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

My concern is this...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly proclaimed that no man knows of that day or hour; in which, he will return...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly compared himself to the master of the house and explicitly said that his servants didn't know if he would return at "even", "midnight", the "cockcrowing", or "morning"...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly said that he would return when we think not...

I would be overtly hesitant to proclaim that I believed that he would return upon a certain day...and furthermore...upon a certain day at evening.

this is probably a rabbit trail, but one I would like to pursue.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 the rapture is a mystery that was not revealed. How then can a statement in Matthew 24 about no man knowing the day or hour be applicable to the rapture? if Matthew 24: 36 is the rapture, how come we don't also apply Matthew 24:29-31 also to the rapture? 

[No Nicolaitans]

1 hour ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

this is probably a rabbit trail, but one I would like to pursue.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 the rapture is a mystery that was not revealed. How then can a statement in Matthew 24 about no man knowing the day or hour be applicable to the rapture? if Matthew 24: 36 is the rapture, how come we don't also apply Matthew 24:29-31 also to the rapture? 

I apologize if my post wasn't clear. My post wasn't about the "Rapture".

I was actually referring to scriptures found in both Mark and Matthew. However, my personal view is that both accounts are referring to when the Lord Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation Period...not the "Rapture".

EDITED TO ADD: In other words, I can't answer your question since I believe the scriptures (in question) have nothing to do with the "Rapture".

Edited March 21, 2018 by No Nicolaitans

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:25 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

For an initial posting concerning my answer to the original posting, I would state that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is (from my perspective) the foundational passage concerning the Biblical teaching on the cessation of the sign gifts.  I would present such for the following reasons:

1.  This passage DIRECTLY indicates the cessation for some of the gifts.  This is rarely disputed, for most acknowledge this declaration as such.  Rather, that which is generally disputed is not the reality of the cessation, but the timing of the cessation.

2.  This passage is located within the most extensive Biblical teaching concerning spiritual gifts, since that teaching extends in 1 Corinthians from chapter 12-14.  Indeed, the entire context, including the "charity" teaching in 1 Corinthians 13, is all about the matter and ministry of spiritual gifts.