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Jordan Kurecki posted a topic in The BibleMany preachers teach that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that the sign gifts will cease, the claim is that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scriptures. However I have a hard time seeing how the completed scriptures were what enable Paul to "know even as I also am known". I am beginning to wonder if this interpretation of this passage of scripture is a knee jerk reaction to charismatic doctrine and chaos? I see it as a definite possibility that what the "perfect" is and what Paul means by "then shall I know even as I also am known" as a reference to our condition in glory, or something of that nature. So I have several questions 1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts? 2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that? This was the closest to an acceptable explanation that I could find about vs 12, but I still have trouble and feel like it glosses over the phrase "shall know even as also am known" "The word translated as glass (esoptron esoptron) literally refers to a mirror. The ancients did not have the technology to make useful mirrors from glass. Rather, they were made from polished metal. Of course, the imagery thereon was not clear, but somewhat fuzzy. The word translated as darkly (ainigma ainigma) is whence the English word enigma derives. Here it has the sense of ‘not clearly,’ or as the Authorized Version renders it, darkly. The idea was of the obtuse imagery of ancient mirrors. The application was to the limited degree of spiritual understanding and knowledge present in the early church ab- sent the New Testament. However, the day was coming when they would see “face to face.” His point is simple. Though in spite of God’s gracious gifts to the early church, their understanding and grasp of New Testament truth was like looking into a polished piece of metal as a mirror. The image was there, but not clear. However, the day was not distant when their understanding would be like seeing face to face. He continued, in that day I “shall know even as also I am known.” When the New Testament was completed, their knowledge of things spiritual would be as sharp as seeing each other face to face." -From David Sorenson's Commentary on 1st Corinthians. 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there beprophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Golgotha posted a topic in The BibleHowbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV At this link is comparing the KJV with other modern Bible versions on . https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 16%3A13&version=KJV;NIV;NKJV;ESV;NASB What does it mean that the Holy Spirit shall not speak of himself? What significance of expounding on that point that whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak? Does this mean that the Holy Spirit cannot speak His own words, but the words of Another? Since that is the truth about , then there is only one way to understand . Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. That means the Holy Spirit has intercessions with groanings for us but He cannot utter them nor speak them. That means Another is required to make the intercessions of the Spirit's known to the Father. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. That is why "itself" was used in verse 26 to testify that the Holy Spirit is a means by which His own intercessions can be made known or uttered to God the Father, and that is by the Son, aka the Word of God, knowing the mind of the Spirit. We know this is the Son knowing the mind of the Spirit because it is the Son that searches our hearts. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Why can only the Son present the intercessions of the Spirit's and our intercessions to the Father as hinted that this was in according to the will of God? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Because ONLY the Son can answers prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers, thus maintaining the truths of these scripture as well. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. So what does that say about believers thinking that because tongues does not come with interpretation, that it is a prayer language used by the Holy Spirit? Not true. Paul gave the bottomline about tongues, but wayward believers keep ignoring that part in scripture as if he did not really mean it. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. So the real God's gift of tongues are of other men's lips to speak unto the people; not for the Holy Spirit to speak on His own initiative back to God in some kind of secret language in making His intercessions known to God by Himself. says in all the Bibles that He cannot speak like that which goes to point in how all modern Bibles have changed the message in as if the Holy Spirit can make intercessions for us, by Himself, which in all modern Bibles says He cannot. Only the KJV has kept the truths in the scripture as all lining up without nulling nor voiding the truth in another part of scripture. The Holy Spirit is serving as the Spirit of Christ, relaying His words to us as all power has been given unto the Son. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. If any disagree, feel free to explain then. Why make that statement if He did not really meant what He has said so that the Son be glorified whenever the Holy Spirit speaks the Son's words which are the words of the Father's? How can the Holy Spirit stop being the Spirit of Christ to start speaking for Himself even for a small moment? Thus He cannot. I can accept that some will deny the truths in His words to cling to vain & profane babbling tongues gained by what many believe comes by receiving the Holy Spirit "again", which is not of Him. But I am hoping God is peradventuring to recover some by His words in the KJV;