MacArthur

[Pastor Scott Markle]

4 minutes ago, Orval said:

Thank you for your answer sir,

Forgive me for asking another question but clarification that I understand your definitions is important to our discussion.

In Romans 8:29-30 do you believe the biblical terms foreknowledge and predestination are equal to election and interchangeable i.e. hold the same meaning in the context of salvation, that all refer to Unconditional Election”?   

Ok, Brother Orval, speaking as Pastor Scott Markle, the opponent of Calvinism,

I am not exactly sure how a given Calvinist would answer that question.  Some might indeed make that equivalent and interchangeable.  Others may attempt to parse them as two separate elements of "pre-choice."  In my case, since it is my own nature to be more precise with matter, I am going to proceed with the precise parsing manner as I myself, with my mindset on matters, were the Calvinist.  Is that reasonable for the progression of the "mock" discussion?  (Note: This does mean that I might go to even greater levels of precision than most Calvinists would go, and thus might "create" some things that Calvinists would not actually present.)

___________________________________

This is Pastor Scott Markle, an opponent of Calvinism, speaking as a "Calvinism advocate," (All who read, please remember that I myself oppose the Calvinistic system; therefore, in my own position of belief, I may disagree with some or all of that which I present as a "Calvinism advocate.")

Brother Orval,

Precision matters in Bible study; therefore, I would contend that God's foreknowledge and God's work of predestination do not hold precisely the same meaning in the context of eternal salvation.  I would contend that they carry the following difference in definition:

1.  God's foreknowledge concerning salvation is His relational "pre-choice" of a lost sinner.
2.  God's predestination concerning salvation is His destinational "pre-choice" of a lost sinner.

As such, the Lord our God pre-chose to have a relationship of love with certain lost sinners; and then upon the foundation of that pre-chosen relationship of love, God pre-chose to call them, justify them, and glorify them in order that they might become perfectly conformed unto the image of His Son.

[Jim_Alaska]

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

By the way, an interesting thing happened to me this afternoon, after Brother "D-28 Player" was banned from the forum.  I have a Facebook page for my publishing ministry, Shepherding the Flock Ministries.  It is not the same as most people's "personal-type" page, but is a "cause-type" page.  This afternoon an individual by the name of Mike Dunkling found the post concerning my book, "God's Wisdom for Marriage & The Home," and posted the following:

"If this is the same guy who posts on OnlineBaptist I can't imagine what would make me recommend this book."

Now, I do NOT post this in order to open the door for any bashing of Brother "D-28 Player" (if, in fact, Mike Dunkling is the same individual).  Rather, I post this as a warning concerning all of our attitude when we engage in doctrinal disagreement.  It is quite easy for us to behave in the flesh and with the attitudes of the flesh at such times.  God forbid that we should!  Yet we are prone to wander.  Even so, let us not only take heed unto the doctrine; but let us also take heed unto ourselves (unto our own character and unto our own attitude).  A sinful attitude and spirit is still SIN against the Lord our God, and it still breaks our precious fellowship with Him - even if our doctrinal position is sound.  Indeed, even as I write this my heart is burdened with the cry - Oh, Lord my God, let me NOT wander from you in this way!!!  Please, guard me from my own fleshliness!

Bro. Scott, Mike Dunkling and D-28 Player are one and the same. 

[Orval]

I will be gone for several days and will pick up discussion when I return.

vacation beckons!!

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

5 minutes ago, Orval said:

I will be gone for several days and will pick up discussion when I return.

vacation beckons!!

Brother Orval,

That will be somewhat beneficial for me, since it will allow me to focus some attention upon the discussion with Brother "Fundamental Faith" in the other Calvinism thread.

[Invicta]

If by foreknowledge you mean that God had foreknowledge of what we would decide, so predestined us, as one US pastor 's wife said to me.  Firstly that in no way is predestination, and secondly it means you have a very small God.  

Eph. 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Many boast that salvation is a choice they made. Tou may have heard of plagiarism.  Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation"  os another's work and the representation of it as one's own original work.  It is a very serious matter to take works of the Creator to be our own.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. There is nothing you can do to earn a gift.

[weary warrior]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

If by foreknowledge you mean that God had foreknowledge of what we would decide, so predestined us, as one US pastor 's wife said to me.  Firstly that in no way is predestination, and secondly it means you have a very small God.  

Eph. 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Many boast that salvation is a choice they made. Tou may have heard of plagiarism.  Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation"  os another's work and the representation of it as one's own original work.  It is a very serious matter to take works of the Creator to be our own.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. There is nothing you can do to earn a gift.

No, there is nothing I can do to earn a gift. But I CAN refuse to accept it. If I have no choice in receiving it, it is not a gift. It is a law, a mandate, a forced inoculation, medicine forced down the throat of a screaming bay. Beneficial? Maybe. A gift? No.To be a free gift, it has to be BOTH freely offered and freely accepted.

By foreknowledge I mean "fore"  (before hand) - and "knowledge" (to know something). Foreknowledge ... to know something beforehand. It's not rocket science, it's sixth grade English. Don't get so smart you become unable to understand the simple definitions of the very language that came from your own country.

A God who is big enough to offer freedom to his beloved creation and to allow them to succeed or fail as they choose is much bigger than a God who is afraid or unable to do so and binds everyone to mindless slavery.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

If by foreknowledge you mean that God had foreknowledge of what we would decide, so predestined us, as one US pastor 's wife said to me.  Firstly that in no way is predestination, and secondly it means you have a very small God.  

This is Pastor Scott Markle, the opponent of Calvinism, speaking (because of the manner in which I have lately been engaging in this thread, it has become necessary for me to specify who I am representing at any given time of communication).

The order of the process is quite clear in Romans 8:29-30.  (1) Foreknowledge comes first.  (2) Then predestination.  (3) Then calling.  (4) Then justification.  (5) Then glorification.  So then, however the word "foreknow" is to be defined, it MUST be presented as the foundation for the predestination.  The opening portion of Romans 8:29 reads, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate."  It does NOT read, "For whom he did predestinate, he also did foreknow." 

As such, technically and precisely the foreknowledge IS the conditional for the predestination.  The verse indicates only that the Lord our God predestinated those whom He first did foreknow.  By implication, it also indicates that the Lord our God did not predestinate any whom He did not first foreknow.  Even so, for an individual to be predestinated by the Lord God, that individual must meet the condition that he or she was first foreknown by Lord God.

So then, what DOES the verb "foreknow" mean?  The most obvious meaning for the word is to (be)fore-know, that is -- to know some information before hand.  Yet are there any OTHER nuances of definition for the verb "foreknow"?  If you believe that there are, would you provide those definitions; and would you provide your grammatical or Biblical support for those definitions?

[Alan]

3 hours ago, Invicta said:

Many boast that salvation is a choice they made. Tou may have heard of plagiarism.  Plagiarism is the "wrongful appropriation"  os another's work and the representation of it as one's own original work.  It is a very serious matter to take works of the Creator to be our own.

The American Heritage dictionary defines plagiarize as follows: "To use (the ideas or work of another) as one's own or without attribution."

Every saint who attributed the work of salvation; by the confession of believing, by the confession of sin, has not committed the act of plagiarism. The saint is just testifying that he made the free will decision, an action of the heart, to trust in the Lord as His Saviour. Let us look at the confession of the Ethiopian Eunuch as one example. "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Acts 8:37

The Ethiopian eunuch made the free will decision (a free will decision is an act of the heart), to believe, to trust, to confess that the Lord Jesus was the Son of God; his Saviour. 

"But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12 The moment a person makes the heart decision to believe, to receive, the Lord Jesus as his Saviour, than he becomes a child of God.

To trust, to believe, to receive, to repent, are all acts of the heart, or the free will of a person; a choice the person makes. A person who says that he received the Lord Jesus, or trusted in the Lord Jesus, or believed in the Lord Jesus, is not committing plagiarism; he made a willful, and free choice. In fact, he is simply stating that God saved his soul from an eternity in hell and gave him salvation: an eternity in heaven. Salvation is a free gift from God and the person received it.

To accuse a person who made confessed that he made a free choice to get saved is an act of plagiarism is a wrongful accusation.

This is why many people, including me, among other reasons, believe that the beliefs of the Calvinist, TULIP, are heretical.

It is the Calvinist who twists the scriptures, brings out new definitions of scriptural terminology, plagiarizes the words of God, and causes confusion among brethren. It was John Calvin who, "wrongfully appropriated" the words of God, the bible, and applied them to his own system of beliefs. It was John Calvin who plagiarized the scriptures. John Calvin, and the false teachers who teach the five points of TULIP, will one day stand before God and give an account of their plagiarism.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Alan
spelling and grammer

[Invicta]

18 hours ago, Alan said:

It is the Calvinist who twists the scriptures, brings out new definitions of scriptural terminology, plagiarizes the words of God, and causes confusion among brethren. It was John Calvin who, "wrongfully appropriated" the words of God, the bible, and applied them to his own system of beliefs. It was John Calvin who plagiarized the scriptures. John Calvin, and the false teachers who teach the five points of TULIP, will one day stand before God and give an account of their plagiarism.

As I have said often before, I do not follow Calvin, or the five points.  I just follow the scriptures as faithfully as I can.  

As I said before you have a very small God who leaves salvation to man's will.  Did any man who Jesus sought out, and to whom Jesus said, "Follow Me"  reject him.  Matthew,  Zaccheus, and the other disciples?  Not one.  Only the rich young ruler and he sought salvattion on his own terms. 

2  Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3  In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4  For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5  And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6  When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7  The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8  Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9  And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
How many people were at the pool? A, A great multitude.   How many did Jeasus choose (elect) to heal.  A.   One.

 

 

[fastjav390]

On 4/4/2017 at 2:30 PM, D-28 Player said:

The fact remains that if you walked into a room full of Calvinists and claimed that Calvinists believe these things you would be laughed out of the room 

That's because there's a disconnect between what many Calvinists teach or say they believe (T.U.L.I.P.) and what they practice. Thus why you will find Calvinists who go soul winning. I've only met a few Calvinists who are consistent with what they claim to believe. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

34 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Did any man who Jesus sought out, and to whom Jesus said, "Follow Me"  reject him.  Matthew,  Zaccheus, and the other disciples?  Not one.  Only the rich young ruler and he sought salvattion on his own terms. 

Mark 8:34-38 - "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?  Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?  Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Luke 9:23-26 - "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.  For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?  For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels."

So, were all of the people that our Lord gathered unto Himself on this occasion to be viewed as His disciples?  Mark 8:34 seems to indicate that there were two categories -- (1) "the people" and (2) "his disciples."  So, unto how many of these people did our Lord give the instruction to deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow him?  Luke 9:23 appears to indicate "to them ALL."  So, how many of those people actually did follow the Lord?  Well if the call would result in an automatic practice of following, then why did our Lord provide a warning toward those who would not deny themselves and follow Him?

Luke 9:59-60 - "And he said unto another, Follow me.  But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.  Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

It appears that this individual did NOT deny himself and follow the Lord as he ought to have done.

Indeed, as you have mentioned above, there is also the rich young ruler.

[heartstrings]

 

54 minutes ago, Invicta said:

As I have said often before, I do not follow Calvin, or the five points.  I just follow the scriptures as faithfully as I can.  

As I said before you have a very small God who leaves salvation to man's will.  Did any man who Jesus sought out, and to whom Jesus said, "Follow Me"  reject him.  Matthew,  Zaccheus, and the other disciples?  Not one.  Only the rich young ruler and he sought salvattion on his own terms. 

2  Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3  In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
4  For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5  And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6  When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7  The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8  Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9  And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
How many people were at the pool? A, A great multitude.   How many did Jeasus choose (elect) to heal.  A.   One.

 

 

#1 Judas Iscariot was told to "follow me".......

#2 The Bible says the man at Siloam could not get to the pool to be healed, so Jesus did it. And Jesus healed many more people in the NT than were recorded, so who knows?. 

#3 God Almighty, the Word....spoke to the "rich young ruler" who rejected his invitation to follow him. AND.... the Bible says that Jesus "beholding him, LOVED HIM": I though you "reformed" folks believed that God doesn't love the "non-elect"???

 

[No Nicolaitans]

The Lord also healed many who were brought to him...they came to him...he didn't go to them. Mark 1:29-34 and Mark 3:7-12

The woman who had an issue of blood (for 12 years) was healed...by her own faith (which the Lord attested to)...she was healed apart from any personal invitation or purposeful involvement from the Lord himself in the healing...Luke 8:43-48

When did the Lord choose the other 109 (?) disciples of Acts 1:15 and tell them to follow him?

[wretched]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Mark 8:34-38 - "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?  Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?  Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Luke 9:23-26 - "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.  For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?  For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels."

So, were all of the people that our Lord gathered unto Himself on this occasion to be viewed as His disciples?  Mark 8:34 seems to indicate that there were two categories -- (1) "the people" and (2) "his disciples."  So, unto how many of these people did our Lord give the instruction to deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow him?  Luke 9:23 appears to indicate "to them ALL."  So, how many of those people actually did follow the Lord?  Well if the call would result in an automatic practice of following, then why did our Lord provide a warning toward those who would not deny themselves and follow Him?

Luke 9:59-60 - "And he said unto another, Follow me.  But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.  Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

It appears that this individual did NOT deny himself and follow the Lord as he ought to have done.

Indeed, as you have mentioned above, there is also the rich young ruler.

Triple LIKE

[DaveW]

4 hours ago, Invicta said:

As I have said often before, I do not follow Calvin, or the five points.  I just follow the scriptures as faithfully as I can.

You have said this before, but some of the things you have said over the years sure sounds like it.

You certainly wouldn't be the first Calvinist who refuses to accept the name, but that doesn't change what you believe or teach.

And the post that this quote comes from, and the one following sound like straight down the line Calvinism.