Revelation Bible Study.

[John Young]

4 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I am glad you like to put things in context Alan, but your context is questionable with the phrase - "It is an unconditional covenant".

Does that mean there are no guidelines as to whom this covenant is with? I certainly hope not, because you missed something here, I think, and you need to address it for me and those reading this.

Unconditional with Israel alone, or the Jews alone, or just anybody? I know you mean Israelites period. But what kind of Israelites Alan? Just any Israelite?

If you think it is to any or all Israelites without condition, I disagree.

Interestingly Paul states this covenant with Israel as one of God's mysteries:

Romans 11:25-29 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:31 even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:6-7 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Edited September 17, 2016 by John Young

[Alan]

WellWithMySoul,

I am very glad to hear that the lesson was a blessing to you. Colossians 3:23 and 24 is a blessing to my hear also. The wonderful eternal blessing's that await us is indescribable.  

John Young,

Thank you for your assistance in the answering of the question by Genevanpreacher. I wholeheartedly agree.

1 hour ago, John Young said:

Interestingly Paul states this covenant with Israel as one of God's mysteries:

Romans 11:25-29 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:31 even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:6-7 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Genevanpreacher said:

6 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I am glad you like to put things in context Alan, but your context is questionable with the phrase - "It is an unconditional covenant". It is an unconditional covenant exactly like I said it was; no conditions. You, my friend, are adding conditions on the covenant that God did not.

Does that mean there are no guidelines as to whom this covenant is with? I certainly hope not, because you missed something here, I think, and you need to address it for me and those reading this. As I clearly mentioned previous God gave the land covenants to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their seed unconditionally. In the case of Jacob, Jacob was asleep, did not say a word, was backslidden, and leaving the land of promise. You are adding your own self-appointed guidelines, conditions, and trying to determine who is a Jew, or Israelite, and who is not a Jew or an Israelite.

Unconditional with Israel alone, or the Jews alone, or just anybody? I know you mean Israelites period. But what kind of Israelites Alan? Just any Israelite? Any Israelite. God knows. Just because you do not know, or understand, does not change the promise.

If you think it is to any or all Israelites without condition, I disagree. I am sorry that you disagree. It is my hope that you change your mind.

How about we read Isaiah 59:20 and 21 again -

20  And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto THEM that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. John Young adequately answered that question with his reference to Romans 11:25-29 and 9:6 & 7 

21  As for me, this is my covenant with THEM, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever."

Notice the underlined and red section of verse 20?

The covenant mentioned in verse 21 to them is conditional and only for those that turn from transgression in Jacob. John Young adequately answered that question with his reference to Romans 11:25-29 and 9:6 & 7 

That is the situation in context. You do not rightly interpret Isaiah 59:20 with Romans.

 

 

1611 KJB original has an interesting typo - Do I bring out interesting typo's from the Geneva Version of the bible? No I do not. I am of the persuasion that you are only bringing out KJB typo's to criticize, find fault with, malign, and cast doubt on the veracity, and preservation, of the King James Version of the Bible. If you want to keep on criticizing the King James Version please start your own thread.

²⁰ ¶ And the redeemer shall come to Zion, and vnto them that turne from transgression in Iacob, saith the LORD.²⁰

²¹ As for me, this is my couenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is vpon thee, and my words which I haue put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of the seede, nor out of the mouth of thy seedes seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth, and for euer. This is a King James Version board, and and on my thread, and any lesson I bring,  I am not interested in finding fault, criticizing, or discussing, any supposed problems with the differences of the  King James Version. 

 

Brethren,

John Young was correct when he brought out the truth of Romans 9:6 and 7, and 11:25-29 in connection with Isaiah 59:20 and 21. I want to thank him for his welcomed, and appropriate, addition to the lesson.

Romans 11:26 clearly states, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it it written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." On day, God will, "graft" the tree of Israel into their own Olive Tree. "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:23

Regards,

Alan

[Genevanpreacher]

3 hours ago, John Young said:

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 

Once again conditional.

When he turns away ungodliness from them and when he shall take away their sins!

1 hour ago, Alan said:

John Young,

Thank you for your assistance in the answering of the question by Genevanpreacher. I wholeheartedly agree. He did not answer a thing with the referred to verses.

Brethren,

John Young was correct when he brought out the truth of Romans 9:6 and 7, and 11:25-29 in connection with Isaiah 59:20 and 21. I want to thank him for his welcomed, and appropriate, addition to the lesson.

Romans 11:26 clearly states, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it it written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." On day, God will, "graft" the tree of Israel into their own Olive Tree. "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:23 Yes - IF they abide not still in unbelief. Why don't you see this Alan?

Regards,

Alan

 

[HappyChristian]

" 1611 KJB original has an interesting typo - Do I bring out interesting typo's from the Geneva Version of the bible? No I do not. I am of the persuasion that you are only bringing out KJB typo's to criticize, find fault with, malign, and cast doubt on the veracity, and preservation, of the King James Version of the Bible. If you want to keep on criticizing the King James Version please start your own thread."

GP, I am of the same opinion as Alan, with one difference...you may NOT begin a thread criticizing the KJB. Cease and desist even the appearance of promoting the Genevan and criticizing the KJB. Period.

[Alan]

Brethren,

I am of the opinion that my original lesson on 60:1-22, and the additional comments of Romans 9 and 11 brought out by John Young, is enough for an adequate understanding of Lesson # 6, Isaiah 60:1-22.

It is my intention to comment primarily on the relationship between these passages and Revelation 20:4-7 with not too much side-tracking on other side issues that are also important.

If there are any comments, or questions, or appropriate additions, on Lesson # 7, Isaiah 65:17-25, or Lesson # 8, Ezekiel 47:1-23, please bring them up, I will delay the lesson on Hosea 3:5 for the time being.  

Regards,

Alan

[DaveW]

6 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Once again conditional.

When he turns away ungodliness from them and when he shall take away their sins!

 

You seriously have no idea what "unconditional covenant " even means.

[Genevanpreacher]

4 hours ago, DaveW said:

You seriously have no idea what "unconditional covenant " even means.

Yes Dave I do. You obviously just don't like a challenge toward yourself, nor others like Alan, who look past the section of the verse to get where YOU want to be in a subject, and ignore the rest. Unconditional is just that - no conditions.

[DaveW]

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Yes Dave I do. You obviously just don't like a challenge toward yourself, nor others like Alan, who look past the section of the verse to get where YOU want to be in a subject, and ignore the rest. Unconditional is just that - no conditions.

And there's the proof of it - you do not understand what an unconditional covenant is.

(Alan, I will leave this alone now that he has confirmed it, so as not to pollute your thread further )

[Jim_Alaska]

14 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

" 1611 KJB original has an interesting typo - Do I bring out interesting typo's from the Geneva Version of the bible? No I do not. I am of the persuasion that you are only bringing out KJB typo's to criticize, find fault with, malign, and cast doubt on the veracity, and preservation, of the King James Version of the Bible. If you want to keep on criticizing the King James Version please start your own thread."

GP, I am of the same opinion as Alan, with one difference...you may NOT begin a thread criticizing the KJB. Cease and desist even the appearance of promoting the Genevan and criticizing the KJB. Period.

Much leeway over a long period of time has been given to this problem by moderators. The rules are clear and previously warnings have been given and disregarded. While what was posted in this thread ("1611 KJB original has an interesting typo") is not a direct violation of the rules stating that no other bible versions may be quoted, it does strongly suggest a veiled attempt to cast doubt on the KJV.

Warnings have an end and consequences have a beginning. Please consider this as fair notice that any consequences for future violations will be dealt with by this moderator without any further warnings.

[Alan]

Lesson # 9

Hosea 3:4 and 5, “Afterward … and David their King”

 

Verse 4 and 5, “For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.”  

Background

 

Hosea 1: 1 & 2, “The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.”

 

The sons of Israel had departed from the LORD and committed whoredom with the world, idols, and with the rulers of this world. The prophet Jeremiah had preached on this matter in his ministry: Jeremiah 3:1-25 The prophet Ezekiel had preached on this matter: Ezekiel 16:15-63 and 23:1-49 and the prophet Hosea takes up this matter also.

 

God told Hosea to take a whore for a wife. Hosea was a sign to the Jews. God was telling the Jews in a graphic manner that the nation of Israel departed from her husband, God, and committed whoredom with the world. “I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.” Hosea 12:10

 

As the harlot wife of Hosea fled (Gomer), and Hosea had to buy her back; Hosea 3:1 So was the nation of Israel. God is going to take the nation of Israel back to Himself, “Afterward...” Hosea 3:5

 

A Promised Restoration of the nation of Israel

 

God promised the Jews, Hosea 1:10 and 11, “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.”

 

Furthermore, God said, “Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.” This is a reference to David, King of Israel and not to the Lord Jesus Christ. God specifically says, “David their King.” The Lord Jesus was never the King of Israel up to this time.

 

God has told the prophet Ezekiel the same prophecy. “And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.” Ezekiel 34:22-24 It is an impossibility for this to be a prophetic reference to the Lord Jesus Christ. God plainly calls David His servant twice and mentions that He would make David a, “prince.”

 

David as King and as a Prince

 

David will not only be raised from the dead to reign as king over Israel, but, more importantly, God said he would be a “prince” among them. The Lord Jesus is never referred to as a, “prince.”

 

David is also spoken as “prince” over the nation of Israel in Ezekiel 34:23, 24, 37:24, and 25

 

Furthermore, it is a direct reference to the “prince’ in Ezekiel 44:1-3; 46:1-18, the “prince is to offer burnt offerings, peace offerings, meat offerings, voluntary burnt offerings, and the prince to inherit land (Ezekiel 46:16), and have sons: “Moreover the prince shall not take of the people’s inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession.” Ezekiel 46:18

 

The Lord Jesus has never had to offer an sin offering nor will He ever have physical sons according to the nature of man.

 

It is a scriptural impossibility for the “prince” to be the Lord Jesus in any manner; whether prophetically, literally, symbolically, allegorically, or any other sense of the word.

 

And, that God would heal the backsliding of the nation of Israel; Hosea 14:4-7

 

God will fulfill all three of these promises to the backslidden nation of Israel.

 

Ezra and Nehemiah

 

God, through Hosea, told the nation of Israel that, “For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim.” Hosea 3:4 From the time of the captivity of the nation of Israel until May 1948 the nation of Israel was without a King, or, a President as its national ruler.

 

From May 1948 the nation of Israel has not sought David as their king, nor has any of the other prophecies come to pass.

 

After the Captivity, in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, the Jews did not have a king nor a national leader. In the book of Nehemiah, all work had to be under the authority of King Artaxerxes, King of Babylon; Nehemiah 2:1 and 13:6

 

In the book of Ezra, all work was done under the authority of the Cyrus, King of Persia, Ezra 1;1 and then King Artaxerxes, King of Persia (Babylon); Ezra 7;1;8:1.

 

“Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.” Hosea 3:5

 

None of the prophecies of Hosea were not fulfilled in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah.

 

None of the prophecies of Hosea were fulfilled in the time of Herold’s Temple.

 

None of the prophecies of Hosea were fulfilled in the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

 

Only one partial promise, a national leader, was in effect since May 1948.

 

None of the prophecies of Hosea will be fulfilled in the Tribulation Temple.

 

Revelation 19:16

 

After the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, or, the 7 Year Tribulation Period, the Lord Jesus returns to this earth as recorded in Revelation 19:11-21, as, “... KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” Revelation 19:16

 

The Lord Jesus returns, not as a “prince,” but as, “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

 

Revelation 20:4-7, “The Kingdom”

 

As, “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS,” the Lord Jesus will set up His kingdom on the face of this earth. This kingdom will last one thousand years. In His kingdom on the face of the earth, in Jerusalem, the Lord Jesus will have others reigning with Him as individual kings over individual countries at His discretion.

 

Revelation 20:4, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

 

Revelation 20:6, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

 

The Prophecies of Hosea will be fulfilled in the Millennium

 

Verse 4 and 5, “For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.”

 

David will be raised up to reign as the King and Prince of Israel. The nation of Israel will be restored as Hosea prophesied.

 

Hosea 1:10 and 11, “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.”

 

Hosea 14:4, “I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.

 

“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall turn away their sins. ” Romans 11:26

 

[Genevanpreacher]

7 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Much leeway over a long period of time has been given to this problem by moderators. The rules are clear and previously warnings have been given and disregarded. While what was posted in this thread ("1611 KJB original has an interesting typo") is not a direct violation of the rules stating that no other bible versions may be quoted, it does strongly suggest a veiled attempt to cast doubt on the KJV.

Warnings have an end and consequences have a beginning. Please consider this as fair notice that any consequences for future violations will be dealt with by this moderator without any further warnings.

Sorry. We had been speaking about differences between the 1611 printing and modern KJB printing differences in another thread and I was interested to find that typo.

Didn't mean it as an offense nor a dishonor to the KJB.

I was in no way suggesting what you implied above Jim.

Didn't think an offense would be taken - guess I was wrong.

(I see HC commented too. Since I have "chosen to ignore HappyChristian", as is my option with the settings on OB, I don't usually read her comments because she is so opinionated against anyone contrary to her thoughtline she is offensive as a Christian woman.)

As for Alan and his disregard for accuracy about what is an unconditional covenant - I am totally confused. Is there another definition?

Sorry Alan for interrupting your study.

I will no longer interrupt it.

Thanks.

(If anyone can message me about what is the proper definition of an unconditional covenant I would appreciate it.)

Edited September 18, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[MountainChristian]

4 hours ago, Alan said:

and without an image,

Is this the gold calf in Samaria or the Antichrist's Image? 

[OLD fashioned preacher]

5 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

(I see HC commented too. Since I have "chosen to ignore HappyChristian", as is my option with the settings on OB, I don't usually read her comments because she is so opinionated against anyone contrary to her thoughtline she is offensive as a Christian woman.)

I worked for a company that acquired a new manager over their accounting department. The new manager was a female with an "I am woman, hear me roar" attitude. I wasn't a part of accounting but handled invoices and monies on the route in the course of my deliveries. She had NO authority over me, my truck, my routes, my trainees, etc. She DID, however,have say over the accounting paperwork, required payment type, etc. If she told me that I could not accept any more checks from a long term customer, it didn't matter whether she was right  - I no longer accepted checks from that customer, or I could work for the competitor. Why? The owner of the company placed her in that position.

 

Don't bother trying to pick the analogy apart, the principle is clear. I'm NOT saying HC has such an attitude nor am I saying that you feel she does (either would be beside the point). I am saying that the owner of this site placed her as a moderator.

 

You are free to "ignore" her posts, you are free to not read her posts. Realize though, as a moderator, any warning she gives that you do not receive is still a validly issued warning and the consequences have not been mitigated.

[Alan]

3 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Is this the gold calf in Samaria or the Antichrist's Image? 

Good question.

According to Webster's 1848 dictionary the images are, "[Heb] Household deities or images."

The only other place in the scriptures where the translators used the word, "teraphim," was in the story of Micah in Judges 17. Judges 17:5 says, "And the man Micah had an house of gods, and made an ephold, and teraphim, and consecrated one of his sons, who became his priest."  The teraphim, or household gods, in the same context as the story of Micah, are mentioned also in Judges18:4-20

I am of the opinion that the teraphim in Hosea 3:4 are not mentioned by Hosea in connection with the golden calf in Samaria or the image of Antichrist.

Hosea does bring out the idolatry in Ephrahim (Hosea 4:17), the images made of gold (Hosea 8:4), and the calf in Samaria; "Thy calf, O Samaria, hath cast thee off; mine anger is kindled against them: how long will it be ere they attain to innocency? For from Israel was it also: the workman made it; therefore it is not God: but the calf of Samaria shall be broken in pieces." Hosea 8:5 and 6 The reference in Hosea 10:5 may, or may not, be a reference to the calves in Samaria. Hosea 11:2 makes a rerference to graven images. Molten images are referenced to in Hosea 13:2

I would like to make an interesting note concerning the nation of Israel and idolatry. Starting from after the Captivity in Babylon, and up to this age, as a whole, the nation of israel has not been an idloatrous nation. The teraphim, the molten images, the golden calfs of Samaria, and other graven images, are not worshipped. One of the reasons why the nation of Israel, as a lost nation, will reject the antichrist, is that he will set up an image in the re-built Temple; Matthew 24:15

I will bring out one other interesting fact that is not in the scriptures. In Taiwan, among the Taoists and other religions, we see household gods (and gods, images, in busnesses), continually. Idolatry is one of the major hindrances to Christianity here on Taiwan. In the last days, according to Revelation 9:10, and the image of anchrist that MountainChristian referred too, will be prevalent in many countries of the world.  

Alan

Edited September 19, 2016 by Alan
spelling

[WellWithMySoul]

Hosea!  Oh my, but the absolute love of God and the prophecies expressed through the prophet Hosea are such a glorious blessing.  Many years ago when we used to make the 160 mile round trip to church, the pastor there preached a message on Hosea.  I never forgot it!  It is hidden within my heart in a very profound way, and I love to share the overall love that is expressed in this short book of the Bible.  However in all honesty, I'm not very knowledgeable about the prophecies there, and so once again I truly appreciate how you brought them out and made the very "complementary" (and complimentary) connections.  I am learning a lot!  Thank you again for the great lesson.