John Calvin Had It All Wrong

[Invicta]

Earlier in this thread, somebody said that Calvinists lead many to Hell.  That is a very foolish statement.  Calvinists have prOBably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians.

 

Consider bibles.

 

The 1996 revision of the French Ostervald Bible has the following in the preface. (my translation.)  "Throughout the centuries, since 1535 (Date of the Olivetan Bible) the francophones posses a faithful bible". .............."It is issue of the  Texte Reçu, The Received Text. The Olivetan Bible was the bible of the Vaudois (Waldensians) evangelical Christians of the alps, the reformers Calvin, Farel and Théodore de Beze.  It has born fruit in numerous conversions.and the spirit of sacrifice and revival.  .......Up to the beginning of the 20th century it has been perpetuated by revisions  ot the Ostervald.  During all this time, nothing was taken from the bible.

 

The 1996 was revised by Pastor Clare Baughman, A US baptist,.

 

So let us look at bibles translated by Calvinists (to use your words). These have all resulted in vast numbers of conversions.

 

Wickliff.

Wm Tyndale, English

KJV,  English

Luther.  German

Olivetan.  French.  (Jean Calvin wrote the preface for that.)

 

These are just some of the translations by Calvinists. In fact if it wasn't for them you prOBably would never have heard the gospel.

 

It has been estimated that at one time 45-48% of the population in France was Huguenot.  These were almost wiped out by persecution and exile.  Preachers and pastors were sentenced to be broken on the wheel and then hung.  Men attending a service wold be sentenced to the galleys for life, women to imprisonment in the Tower of Constance in a town called Aigres Mortes.  The pastors mainly counseled their flock not to make armed resistance.  However when the people were left without godly pastors to guide them in the late 1600s, a the christians became radical and charismatics.  The then had many prophets, and became known as Camisards.  Following a distinct prophecy they took up arms against the king and were wiped out apart from a few who escaped to England and other countries.  One of the leaders who came here was Elias Marion. Here they were known as French Prophets. In his journal, Charles Wesley mentions sharing a hotel room with one of them (No such thing as privacy in those days) He said the man gOBbled like a turkey cock all night, 

 

But I have digressed, where did I get to?  Oh yes, the Huguenots were also called Calvinists   The Camisards were not.

 

The Waldensians were Calvinist.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Invicta,

 

 

 Calvinists have prOBably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians

 

I am wondering why you called someone an Arminian?  I am not sure who you were addressing in the post where I quoted you so I was wondering.

 

I was called a Calvinist because I believe in Eternal Salvation but I am not Calvinist at all. 

 

It is a labeling game some Christians get all into, it seems they just like to call people such, when it may be they are not.

 

I had a man who argued with me again and again about how there was not such thing as Eternal Salvation in the Bible.  So I asked him if I could show him that there is Eternal Salvation in the Bible would he believe it. 

 

I pulled out my KJV and read to him Heb 5:8, 9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he OBedience by the things which he suffered;  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBey him;

 

After I read this verse to him he just became quiet and then exclaimed he had to go and left.  He either never saw this verse before or is it in any Bible he read.  He never argued with me again about eternal Salvation after that.

 

If you would I ask you would read the following link on Calvinism "Is Calvinism Sound Doctrine?"

[DaveW]

Ok so now you can twist history - oh wait we already know you do that.......

Luther was a Calvinist..... love it. they didn't really agree with each other, and tried to get rid of each other - at least until the anabaptists got in the way - they they agreed to get rid of them.

And I don't know of a single person here who claims to be an Arminian. More twisting....

Talk about foolish statements...... "Calvinists have prOBably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians."

What utter trash - especially when you then go on to talk about Bible translations, which have nothing to do with how many people are saved, nor whether a person believes in calvinism or not.
There is no possible way anyone can make a claim such as you just have - you have no way of finding the statistics of such a claim.

However, to claim that a particular form of doctrine leads people to hell is entirely provable - if it is not the Gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, then the people teaching such are leading people to Hell.

You don't even know what an arminian is if you claim that the people here are arminian.
Just standard Calvinist false claims again. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically an arminian.

[whisperingsage]

Before John Calvin came along, I wonder where Calvinists went to church. PrOBably almost no Calvinists existed before then.

 Calvin was Catholic before he bacome supposedly a Protestant- but with research from David Cloud, it appears he was still pretty Catholic. We know he beat two boys for putting a bean in a cake. We know he persecuted Anabaptists.

[whisperingsage]

After having read about the 5 point Calvinist in the Sword of the Lord, and what TULIP meant, sometime later, we happened to have a 5 point Calvinist come to our church for awhile. He was very talented with the violin, classicly. We were impressed with that. And he was a sweet man, BUT he wanted to argue that Adam was the last man that had free will. We could not soften his heart on that. Sometime later, he drove himself nuts thinking he was NOT one of the predestined. Literally, he went into a mental intitution, his wife divorced him, he had a pall of depression for a few years. He moved to another state, but would come through and visit every once in awhile. He would come through a fat, unhealthy specimen, compared to before, when he dressed sharp and acted charming, and had happiness. But finally one of these times, he looked a little better and someone from another church had got through with the grace doctrine, and he heard it and he rededicated himself to God. So finally it appeared our friend had made peace with himself and God. But it took a long time and a lot of heartache over the TULIP doctrine.

[AVBibleBeliever]

 Calvin was Catholic before he bacome supposedly a Protestant- but with research from David Cloud, it appears he was still pretty Catholic. We know he beat two boys for putting a bean in a cake. We know he persecuted Anabaptists.

ALL the reformation churches came from the RC background.  All of them fly the supposed Christian Flag flown in some Baptist churches.  But that flag was the reformation banner not a baptist banner.  Baptist did not come from the reformation they came from around it.  And If I am not mistaken Baptist are not from the direct line of Anabaptist, many associate it because of the word baptist in the name.  American Baptist are a unique fellowship of believers.  See Elmer Towns "Theology Today" he gives a little insight on it.

 

John Calvin didn't just persecute the Anabaptist he persecuted Wesleyans, the Lutherans, the Presbytery church, the Episcopals, RC and any groups that he could not influence toward his ideas for the church.  Later some of these groups created opposition to him while others conformed to him but not to the Bible.

[heartstrings]

Ok so now you can twist history - oh wait we already know you do that.......

Luther was a Calvinist..... love it. they didn't really agree with each other, and tried to get rid of each other - at least until the anabaptists got in the way - they they agreed to get rid of them.

And I don't know of a single person here who claims to be an Arminian. More twisting....

Talk about foolish statements...... "Calvinists have prOBably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians."

What utter trash - especially when you then go on to talk about Bible translations, which have nothing to do with how many people are saved, nor whether a person believes in calvinism or not.
There is no possible way anyone can make a claim such as you just have - you have no way of finding the statistics of such a claim.

However, to claim that a particular form of doctrine leads people to hell is entirely provable - if it is not the Gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, then the people teaching such are leading people to Hell.

You don't even know what an arminian is if you claim that the people here are arminian.
Just standard Calvinist false claims again. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically an arminian.

I concur. 

Arminians believe one can be saved and later lost. That is just as false as ''reformed doctrine'' is.

[Invicta]

Ok so now you can twist history - oh wait we already know you do that.......

Luther was a Calvinist..... love it. they didn't really agree with each other, and tried to get rid of each other - at least until the anabaptists got in the way - they they agreed to get rid of them.

And I don't know of a single person here who claims to be an Arminian. More twisting....

Talk about foolish statements...... "Calvinists have prOBably led far more people to Christ than you Arminians."

What utter trash - especially when you then go on to talk about Bible translations, which have nothing to do with how many people are saved, nor whether a person believes in calvinism or not.
There is no possible way anyone can make a claim such as you just have - you have no way of finding the statistics of such a claim.

However, to claim that a particular form of doctrine leads people to hell is entirely provable - if it is not the Gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ, then the people teaching such are leading people to Hell.

You don't even know what an arminian is if you claim that the people here are arminian.
Just standard Calvinist false claims again. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically an arminian.

 

Have you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will?  He said Adam was given free will and exercised it for his children, us in other word  He used his freewill to sin and bore his son "in his own image" his sinful image.  I used Luther as one who believed in predestination and if you actually read my post, you will see that I said they were Calvinists "!in your words."  That is, they believed in predestination.  To say that predestination  did not mean predestination to life, but some other predestination is foolish  Called, chosen, predestinated.  If that were the only reference in scripture I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are many other places tat confirm this, remember, Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you." and 

 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

 

44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

As you can see, the teaching of Jesus is no more popular today than it was them.

 

DasveW, you completely miss the point by trying to vilify me.  (I am glad that n one will have that attitude when we get to glory)   My point was, they all believed in  predestination.  Incidentally, they all (AS far as I know) taught that the Pope is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist.

 

 

A catholic is hardly likely to teach that. 

 

I used the word "Calvinist" as you use it on anyone who believes in predestination.  

 

 Calvin was Catholic before he bacome supposedly a Protestant- but with research from David Cloud, it appears he was still pretty Catholic. We know he beat two boys for putting a bean in a cake. We know he persecuted Anabaptists.

 

I am an admirer of Br Cloud, except when he gets onto history and prophecy.

 

After having read about the 5 point Calvinist in the Sword of the Lord, and what TULIP meant,

 

I don't follow Calvin, or any 5 points or TULIP, I just read the bible.  

 

You asked, "Why did I use the label 'Arminian'?"

 

AS I was labelled "Calvinist" I used the term that some Calvinistic Baptists use about all those who believe in free will.  I know a pastor who calls himself Arminian, and won't go to our church as he said we are Strict Baptists, but when I spoke to a member of his church, he said "Have you ever asked him to explain his position?"  I said "No."  and he replied, "I have and when he explains his beliefs, he is nearer to Calvin than Arminius.

[heartstrings]

Have you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will?  He said Adam was given free will and exercised it for his children, us in other word  He used his freewill to sin and bore his son "in his own image" his sinful image.  I used Luther as one who believed in predestination and if you actually read my post, you will see that I said they were Calvinists "!in your words."  That is, they believed in predestination.  To say that predestination  did not mean predestination to life, but some other predestination is foolish  Called, chosen, predestinated.  If that were the only reference in scripture I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are many other places tat confirm this, remember, Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you." and 

 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

 

44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

As you can see, the teaching of Jesus is no more popular today than it was them.

 

DasveW, you completely miss the point by trying to vilify me.  (I am glad that n one will have that attitude when we get to glory)   My point was, they all believed in  predestination.  Incidentally, they all (AS far as I know) taught that the Pope is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist.

 

 

A catholic is hardly likely to teach that. 

 

I used the word "Calvinist" as you use it on anyone who believes in predestination.  

 

 

I am an admirer of Br Cloud, except when he gets onto history and prophecy.

 

 

I don't follow Calvin, or any 5 points or TULIP, I just read the bible.  

 

You asked, "Why did I use the label 'Arminian'?"

 

AS I was labelled "Calvinist" I used the term that some Calvinistic Baptists use about all those who believe in free will.  I know a pastor who calls himself Arminian, and won't go to our church as he said we are Strict Baptists, but when I spoke to a member of his church, he said "Have you ever asked him to explain his position?"  I said "No."  and he replied, "I have and when he explains his beliefs, he is nearer to Calvin than Arminius.

 First of all, we believe "predestination'' because it is a Bible doctrine. You want people to believe that predestination means the same as predeterminism. That's false doctrine, using a Bible word.

[mkrishna]

Have you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will?  He said Adam was given free will and exercised it for his children, us in other word  He used his freewill to sin and bore his son "in his own image" his sinful image.  I used Luther as one who believed in predestination and if you actually read my post, you will see that I said they were Calvinists "!in your words."  That is, they believed in predestination.  To say that predestination  did not mean predestination to life, but some other predestination is foolish  Called, chosen, predestinated.  If that were the only reference in scripture I would be inclined to agree with you, but there are many other places tat confirm this, remember, Jesus said "You didn't choose me, I chose you." and 

 

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

 

44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

As you can see, the teaching of Jesus is no more popular today than it was them.

 

DasveW, you completely miss the point by trying to vilify me.  (I am glad that n one will have that attitude when we get to glory)   My point was, they all believed in  predestination.  Incidentally, they all (AS far as I know) taught that the Pope is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist.

 

 

A catholic is hardly likely to teach that. 

 

I used the word "Calvinist" as you use it on anyone who believes in predestination.  

 

 

I am an admirer of Br Cloud, except when he gets onto history and prophecy.

 

 

I don't follow Calvin, or any 5 points or TULIP, I just read the bible.  

 

You asked, "Why did I use the label 'Arminian'?"

 

AS I was labelled "Calvinist" I used the term that some Calvinistic Baptists use about all those who believe in free will.  I know a pastor who calls himself Arminian, and won't go to our church as he said we are Strict Baptists, but when I spoke to a member of his church, he said "Have you ever asked him to explain his position?"  I said "No."  and he replied, "I have and when he explains his beliefs, he is nearer to Calvin than Arminius.

Brother,

 

Where do you think Cloud is off on history? I have an interest in church history, and often wonder what the best source to go is on that topic.

[DaveW]

"DasveW, you completely miss the point by trying to vilify me.  (I am glad that n one will have that attitude when we get to glory)   My point was, they all believed in  predestination.  Incidentally, they all (AS far as I know) taught that the Pope is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist."

Pointing out that you are twisting history as well as doctrine is not vilification.
And if the above was really your point you put a lot of other trash in there to confuse things.

And predestination is Bible doctrine, just not the way Calvin taught it.

This whole thing is classic Calvinist misdirection, moving the argument around so as not to be pinned down, introducing new twists rather sticking to the actual point, and making false accusations again other respondents, twisting their answers.

Nothing unexpected, but lots wrong.

[Invicta]

Brother,

 

Where do you think Cloud is off on history? I have an interest in church history, and often wonder what the best source to go is on that topic.

 

Isa 19:19  In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.

 

Bro Cloud uses this verse as future, but Josephus uses the same verse to show that the Jewish high priest, Onias who was exile and fled to Ptotlemy Philometor, was given permission to build an altar in Egypt.  This altar was built one hundred and eighty furlongs from Memphis in the Nomos of Heliopolos.  Jos. Wars VII,  X .3. Ant. XIII. III.1,3. 

 

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 

Bro Cloud uses that verse as future, but again Josephus says it has already happened in the days of Ptolemy Philadelphus who ransomed and freed "a few more than ten times ten thousand."  Ant. XII. II. 3.

 

Bro Cloud also denies there was a Greek LXX before the second Century, but again Josephus writing at the end of the first century describes it as then an ancient book, translated on behalf of Ptolemy Philadelphus who  collected a vast library in Alexandria and wished to have the Jewish law for his Library.

 

Regarding Church history.

 

If you want Baptist history, you could do worse than go to Bro Cloud himself.  He does a CD which includes a digital library containing a number of books on Baptist History.  I was particularly interested in the book on the Bogomils, as I had read that they were true Christians but the only book I could find in a library, said they were heretics, believing in "Two Principals", that is a god  of good and a god of evil.  The Catholic and Orthodox always said that the "heretics" believed that.  I once had an online discussion with a Catholic lady who insisted that the Waldensians believed in two gods, so I gave her a link to the Waldensian "NOBle Lesson" but she still insisted that they believed in two gods.

 

Someone once said, I can't  remember who, "There is no such thing as unbiased history."  This is also true in Church history;  XSo I should read from many different historians.  Anyway, it is bedtime.

[No Nicolaitans]

Arminians.

 

 

And I don't know of a single person here who claims to be an Arminian.

 

I'm an ARMian. 

 

Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

[Covenanter]

I'm an ARMian. 

 

Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

And I'm an IAN

[HappyChristian]

And I'm an IAN