Covenanter

Hi bjshuf, Excellent question. I've read Alan's answer & consider it to be incorrect. Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 is giving signs relating to the AD 70 destruction, so that believers in Jerusalem & Judea would know when to flee the city before the destruction. Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Jesus lists a variety of events that are NOT signs of the end - all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. We have discussed at length in the debate section the interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. Simply understood it predicts the saving work of Jesus at Calvary, & the consequential destruction of Jerusalem & those who rejected their Messiah. The prophecy is fulfilled. Jesus second coming will be for resurrection & judgement, not for a complicated "end times" scenario. We must of course be concerned for our unsaved family members & contacts - our end times beliefs do not change the Gospel imperative - NOW is the day of salvation.

Presumably her options are limited, in view of age, mobility & especially her church allegiance. Where are the loving Christians in the membership who know her & her faithful service over many years? In my experience ..... A serving minister of 20 years in the church, & about 12 years ministry before that invited a local Christian teacher alongside as co-Pastor. The new man persuaded enough of the membership (using the method of Absalom [2 Sam. 15]) to dismiss the long-serving Pastor - breaking church rules - even voting to break them. Once the new man was in charge, he sold the manse, pocketing half the proceeds, sold the church hall to Sikhs, & the church to Pentecostals. We regrouped with a few members. Soon we were worshipping in a Gospel Hall owned by Brethren who could not support the work, & were happy to allow us to use their hall. Over time most of the old members left the usurper & joined us. We worshipped there for about 20 years with an attendance of around 30 Asian & English members, an Arabic speaking missionary, & an interest in a SriLanka Bible College. Then the trustees wanted to sell, & we had no money to buy. An American led group wanted to buy the building for a church plant. In the months before the sale we baptised 6 folk, all Indian. Our last service was our 148th anniversary, dating from the founding date of the other church we were forced out of. [It started as a harvest service for farm workers who weren't happy in the CofE & continued as an independent church.] Our Pastor had by then retired, & I was sharing the leadership with others. The American leader did not want any of the existing members to continue - in his experience "a church plant would work best with a completely fresh start, gathering folk from the immediate vicinity, not importing Christians from outside the district." I tried to join them for leafleting when they started - "We don't need you." I asked to come to their prayer meeting. "No." That was 5 years ago. We are still friends with some of them, they were worshipping with us before the take-over was proposed, & then did not come until the building was theirs. Yes - I am still friends with some, but we were very hurt. And I don't think any of their members are local, though one couple are about a mile away. We were not able to regroup, but the old members are still in fellowship & we have meetings from time to time, as well as personal contact. What about brotherly, sisterly love, & honour those who have served their Lord for many years. It is sad - but press on - we serve our Saviour! May she know a wonderful closeness to her lord in the closing years of her life of service.

Thanks, @BroMatt for agreeing to the debate & providing the format, & thanks to all for their contributions in this thread. I trust you have been blessed, whether you agree or not. I've found it helpful in my understanding of God's Word.

Thank you, Brother Scott for the manner in which you have conducted the debate & the thought provoking challenges in your postings. I hope & pray that our contributions to this & other threads will be helpful to others as we discuss the Holy Scriptures. While we disagree on many points, it is wonderful that we have a fundamental agreement on our shared salvation by faith in our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, & our eternal hope of glory in the NH&NE. I'll begin with John's request from the discussion thread, & my reply: Begin with the passage: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. As I understand this Scripture: The prophecy is about the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, his saving work & its results for for God's redeemed people; Generally OT prophecy is best understood by its fulfilment, particularly in the life & ministry of Jesus, his saving work, & the Gospel resulting from the saving work, therefore read the NT to understand the OT; The timescale - completed in 70 weeks or 490 years - around 35 AD; 69 weeks takes us to the baptism of Jesus, so the 70th week includes Jesus earthly ministry & the early Apostolic ministry - the first half of Acts; Old Testament (Old Covenant) vision & prophecy will be sealed up by Messiah's life & saving ministry so that prophecy focuses on Jesus, his saving work & his kingdom, not on Israel's future, apart from the glorious restored covenant relationship detailed in v. 24; All the blessings for God's people of v. 24 are accomplished by Messiah's saving work, and are received by repentance & faith and must be appropriated in the present Gospel age of grace; Messiah's saving work - his death for sinners - ends the examples, shadows & patterns of the Law, so that the temple, and Jerusalem centred worship will cease with the destruction of the temple & city; OT prophecy includes judgement for those who reject the covenant & particularly for those who reject the Messiah (Deut. 18, quoted by Peter in Acts 3); The timescale for the perfect realisation of the prophesied covenant blessings of v. 24 is not revealed - the focus is on Jesus & his saving ministry - but Jesus himself in his Olivet prophecy could not reveal the timescale for his coming, only the timescale for the destruction; The perfect fulfilment of all prophecy & covenant promises for Israelite believers, together with believers from all nations on earth will be accomplished in the NH&NE, after Jesus returns for resurrection & judgement, which is the next & final event of prophecy. ============= A gap between 69 & 70, future end times tribulation, millennium, restored kingdom for national Israel, earthly reign of Messiah, etc, are not written in the passage. ============== As I understand Bro Scott, He sees OT promises & prophecies specifically relating to the earthly nation of Israel, & as they were not fulfilled before Messiah came, & the nation rejected Messiah & the Apostolic Gospel, & are not being fulfilled now in the present nation of Israel, there must be a future dispensation when all the OT prophecies happen literally. That requires a gap in the 70 weeks, re-establishment of Israel as a Jewish nation, rebuilding the temple, & then destroying it all again in the 70th week, after which the surviving Israelites will believe in Jesus Christ who will reign over them as a mortal people, on earth, in person, for 1,000 years. The present Gospel age is thus in effect a gap in prophetic revelation between weeks 69 & 70 during which God is not dealing with Israel as a nation, but mainly the Gentiles, & any Jews who do repent & believe in Jesus Christ. [We don't hear much from the dispensationalists about the dreadful end of their millennium when all hell breaks loose & the wonderful restored earthly kingdom of Israel is burnt up along with the old earth, so that a NH&NE can be established. ] =================== I hope that is a fair brief summary of Bro Scott's position. ===================== Brother Scott replied: Brother Day, Although I myself would add more details, and although I would not claim that all of these things are taught specifically in and by Daniel 9:24-27, and although a few of the specifics are not exactly correct to my position, the above was indeed a fair "brief summary" of my position -- all except the parenthetical note at the end of the summary. Concerning the truth, instruction, and promise of 2 Peter 3:11 -- Amen, and AMEN! Brother Scott then replied with a detailed summary: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23411-comment-on-current-debate/?do=findComment&comment=412168 ================ Putting the summary even simpler, I believe Dan. 9:24-27 refers to the Messiah, Jesus Christ & his finished saving work at Calvary, followed by the Apostolic Gospel, so that the purpose of the 70 weeks is the securing of the promised blessings to repentant sinners, & the confirmation of the covenant – as the new covenant - relationship of God with his people, both Israel & Gentiles who come to the same saving faith in Jesus. The fulfilment of the prophecy is thus recorded in Scripture, in the Gospels & the first half of Acts. Brother Scott considers that the whole prophecy concerns the nation of Israel, & is yet to be fulfilled - in a future millennium, & has no relevance to the present Gospel age of grace. The blessings of 9:24 teach the perfect millennial condition of the people of Israel. In his final posting, Brother Scott raised points of interpretation – jot & tittle: [underlining mine for emphasis] How can you come to a right understanding of what God the Holy Spirit precisely intended to communicate in the Scriptures, if you first rearrange the precise grammatical arrangement for the words by which He communicated? Precise grammatical analysis (as that in which I engage) handles each statement of God’s Holy Word word-for-word according to the precise grammatical arrangement in which God the Holy Spirit inspired and communicated that statement of God’s Holy Word. (For example – If God the Holy Spirit inspired the coordinating conjunction “and” to be precisely arranged at the beginning of each and every independent statement (sentence, clause) in a series of statements, then God the Holy Spirit had a precise reason for so arranging that conjunction; and it is my responsibility as a Bible student to discern and understand God the Holy Spirit’s precise reason for so doing.) Such a practice is not “extreme” grammatical analysis. Rather, such a practice is a precise, word-for-word (“jot and tittle”) grammatical analysis that regards and respects every single word that God the Holy Spirit inspired, in the precise grammatical arrangement in which God the Holy Spirit inspired it. Indeed, such a practice is “rightly dividing” God’s Holy Word of truth. Indeed, such a practice is the only way to understand precisely what God the Holy Spirit has inspired and communicated, before we engage in the matters of “interpretation” and “application.” Throughout this discussion-debate it has become apparent to me that the primary disagreement between Brother Day and myself is not over Daniel 9:24-27, but is over the method of Bible study itself. Therefore, with my conclusion to this concluding post of the discussion-debate, I wish to provide a warning unto the members of the audience. The Lord our God desires that we should study His Holy Word according to the principle of precise detail, “rightly dividing” precisely in accord with the precise pattern that God the Holy Spirit has inspired. Indeed, in Deuteronomy 8:3 the Lord our God teaches the truth that we do not live by physical food alone, but “by every word” that has proceeded out of His mouth as recorded in His Holy Word. In Matthew 5:18 our Lord Jesus Christ indicated the importance of every “jot and tittle” in God’s Holy Word, indicating that not even one of them would pass “till all be fulfilled.” Even so, any Bible study or Bible teaching that follows a method of loose generalities, wherein things that are not precisely presented in God’s Word as the same are claimed to be the same, should be rejected as faulty. Indeed, when a Biblical position teaches us that there is “no need to study every detail” of the truths and promises of God’s Word concerning a matter, or that there is no need to ask concerning specific details of truth on a matter because it would be superfluous to do so, then that position of belief should be viewed with spiritual suspicion. I agree 100% when Brother Scott says “the primary disagreement between Brother Day and myself is not over Daniel 9:24-27, but is over the method of Bible study itself. ” I replied in detail to his final paragraph (above) in my post of Sept 1st in the comments thread: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23411-comment-on-current-debate/?do=findComment&comment=411823 But, does his attention to every jot & tittle find support in the words of our Lord? I think not, if we analyse them in context. Mat. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. We need to read the inspired words – the inspired Word – in its immediate context, & in its wider context. Jesus is there declaring that “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” The minutiae of the Law would indeed be fulfilled, perfectly, by the One who gave the Law. The Law & covenants were hopelessly broken by the priests, lawyers & Pharisees who paid extreme attention to the detail. See Mat. 23. Jesus as the true Israel, as the covenant surety for his people, fulfilled the Law, so that in him we have perfect righteousness – the righteousness of faith. As Gabriel puts it: “to bring in everlasting righteousness.” Jesus quoted from Hosea 6:6 on two occasions when the Pharisees accused him or his disciples of breaking the Law – eating with publicans & sinners, & eating with unwashed hands. Mat. 9 & 12. Those who paid extreme attention to the precise details of the Law were rebuked as not understanding the Word of God: But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Paul the ex-Pharisee puts it like this: Phil3: 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Incidentally Paul is writing to the Philippians, where it is presumed Philippi did not have enough Jews to establish a synagogue, so he went to a riverside women's prayer meeting. And he writes to them: we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. He teaches that the Gentile believers are the circumcision which brings us to another major point of interpretation: There is no suggestion in the teaching of Jesus or his Apostles that the Gospel age beginning at Pentecost is in any sense a gap in the purposes of God; that God is concentrating on saving Gentiles until such time as the Jews come to repentance after the church has been “raptured.” The inclusion of uncircumcised Gentiles into the church was accepted by the Jewish Christians at the Jerusalem conference (Acts 15) and as that went against the laws for incorporating foreigners into Israel, Exo. 12:48 it does show a surprising change. That is not a “replacement” but an inclusion. Paul refers to that inclusion as a mystery. Rom. 11:25 , Eph. 3:1-11 Note particularly: 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: The present Gospel age Jew-Gentile body of Christ is according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: It certainly isn't a gap. Your conclusions from your attention to the precise grammatical detail of OT prophecy show a blindness to the reality of the fulfilment in & by the Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ. You maintain that “not one New Testament passage precisely indicates that it is a fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th“week” of years.” I maintain that a reading of the Dan. 9 prophecy, in context, and keeping it in mind as we read the Gospels & Epistles will show that countless New Testament passages – indeed the whole message of the NT - show that Jesus Christ & his saving work is the fulfilment of the prophecy. Dare anyone wait for another dispensation to come to repentance? NOW is the day of salvation. The Jews who rejected the Messiah & the Apostolic Gospel suffered the prophesied consequences.

We must recognise antichrist is his many manifestations.

About 100 at the funeral - no Gospel - time for remembering loved ones. Began & ended with prayer, & included Psalm 23 & "All things bright & beautiful." Our elderly Aunts weren't able to be there. Lily - 90ish - is in hospital & could be next. We stayed at the guest room of Aunt Mary's retirement flat & prayed with her & Uncle Ray before coming home. While my mother was alive we were very close, but after she died we didn't have occasions to come together. Thanks for prayers. Sept 20th Now we have heard Aunt Lily has cancer - lumps in stomach & neck. She is mentally alert, & they will treat her with chemo. Please add her to your prayers. When we have spoken of the Gospel, her attitude was typical CofE - Christian by infant baptism & church attendance. @BroMatt

Funeral today. Thank you for prayers.

May he realise the wonder of salvation, & turn to Jesus as Lord & Saviour.

I happy to see Jeremy triumph - we now have a people's voice leading the opposition.

Note to Geneva - I wrote the above without reference to the Geneva Bible notes. I looked them up this morning & find I am in substantial agreement with the notes. It's encouraging to know I am in good company.

I had added some references above. UkeleleMike & others - my objection to beginning at the end of 14 chapters was & is that we need to understand contextual questions including - Who was Zechariah? When did he prophesy? What was the condition of Israel at the time? Are the prophecies quoted as fulfilled in the NT? In what way do the prophecies relate to the Messiah? After the return from exile, led by Zerubbabel & Joshua, according to Ezra, the work of rebuilding the temple had ceased, & the prophets Zechariah & Haggai were commissioned to give the building priority. See Ezra 5 & Haggai. We have therefore a high priest without a temple & a son of David without a kingdom. These are the troublous times Gabriel warns of. (Dan. 9) A number of Zechariah's prophecies relate directly to Jesus & his earthly ministry - his entry into Jerusalem, Zec. 9:9 but 9:10 is less obvious. Chapter 10 prophesies a glorious future for Israel; the 30 pieces of silver are prophesied in 11:12-13 in a context that is not easy to interpret. Zec. 12 prophesies a triumphant future for Jerusalem against all nations, 12:10 prophesies the spear piercing the Saviour quoted in John 19:34-37, and the pouring out a spirit of grace & supplications, so they look on him & mourn. This occurred at Pentecost, but could occur again whenever Jews turn to Christ. Zec. 13 prophesies baptism for sin & uncleanness, the end of prophecy, & the scattering of the disciples when Jesus was captured. Mark 14:27 and the death of 2/3 of the people of the land, & salvation of 1/3 who will then own the covenant relationship: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God. Thus far precise interpretation relating the events as they are quoted in the Gospel accounts is a challenge. We can see specific events, but the context in Zechariah is a challenge to interpretation. The nations taking hold of a Jew probably indicates the Gospel spread by the Jewish Apostles to all nations according to the great commission. Zec. 8 Zec. 14 obviously concerns Jerusalem, in a condition of horrendous warfare which would not appear to be AD 70. The NT understand of Jerusalem is as a spiritual city, of which believers in Christ are citizens. It is distinct from the earthly city, which at the time of NT writing was shortly to be destroyed according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy. Zec. 1 sees Jerusalem being rebuilt, by craftsmen who triumph over the horns of the enemy. Zec. 2 sees Jerusalem being a city without walls, with people from many nations be joined to the Lord. When Jesus was asked by the Samaritan woman about which mountain was right for the worship of God, he said neither - true worshippers will worship in spirit & in truth. And the Samaritans recognised Jesus as the Saviour of the world. We see the degraded high priest transformed into Jesus, the great high priest in Zec. 3, & David's son Zerubbabel building the temple by grace in Zec. 4. Rebuilding Jerusalem & the temple is seen by the NT writers in terms of building the church with living stones - Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2. But it's not all straightforward & trouble free. Persecutions & tribulation are prophesied for believers, but the final outcome will be vindication of all God's people. 2 Thes. 1. Zec. 14 sees Jerusalem dreadfully suffering until the Lord enters the battle, coming with his saints. So the church has suffered down the ages, faithful unto death, confident in the promised crown of life. No, I can't interpret all the specific details, but over 2,000 years all sorts of dreadful things have been suffered by believers in the Lord Jesus. Now they live & reign with the Lord in glory. These things are examples & shadows of the spiritual substance. We can specifically apply this using Eph. 6 - put on the whole armour of God so that we can fight the spiritual battles, & having done all to stand. Sing with me: Who is on the Lord's side?

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OK - I've got enough comments to make my final post in the debate.

Not sure that's true. The Reformers & other persecuted Christians saw Rome as the false church in Revelation. The Jesuits therefore took up the Preterist understanding of Revelation as being written before AD 70 & therefore prophesying the final rebellion & destruction of the Jewish state. Full Preterism teaches that the second coming occurred in AD 70, which is not RC teaching, nor mine. My position is that Revelation was written before AD 70, & the prophecies do relate to the final rebellion & destruction of the Jewish state, & that Jesus was active in that destruction of his enemies who rejected him, as he prophesied during his final week on earth. We still look forward to his return in glory to raise the dead, & judge the wicked, and bring into being the NH&NE. Revelation is still relevant to the church down the ages in the war against evil, principalities & powers, though some of the prophecies may have passed the warfare continues with different enemies in each generation - the Roman Empire, the RC church, Islam & the various antichristian movements of our generation - as we live in present "history." The parable of the husbandmen - Mat. 21:33-46 - points to a coming for judgement of this generation of Israel in AD 70: 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Sadly some of the Reformers took up Rome's mantle & persecuted Jews & independent Christians, particularly anabaptists. All persecution is wrong - we have a Gospel for the world. We should note that the self curse of the Jews - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mat. 27:25 is cancelled by the Gospel - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39

Ronda - have you checked the references in my post? We are living in the New Covenant age.