Everlasting Covenants?

[Covenanter]

​Brother Ken,

I thank you for your permission.  However, I now have another problem for which I am pondering a solution.  Last night I completed the development of my proposed posting, and it came out to be 14 pages long.  That seems to be excessively long, even for a loooong posting.  Yet I believe that all of the information therein is of definite significance.  I am presently pondering how I might post it as installments.  I am quite comfortable posting the introductory portion as a first installment, and I shall do so in a moment.  For the rest I continue to ponder.

Any helpful thought by anyone would be appreciated.

​Thanks. It would be helpful initially if you list the main points, & perhaps subsequently post each point separately. Otherwise response & selective quotes become unwieldy. 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Concerning God’s Covenants.

As we consider the various covenants that the Lord our God has made with various individuals or groups of individuals, it is important that we consider them from the perspective of “precise details.”  Approaching these covenants from the perspective of “loose generalities” will not bring us to a valid understanding of that which the Lord our God has promises.  In each case, the Lord our God delivered His covenants with precise details (whether many or few).  In each case, the Lord our God will fulfill His covenants precisely in accord with the precise details that he delivered in them.  Therefore, a correct understanding of these covenants will require us to consider them in accord with their precise details.

For an example of this principle, let us consider the covenant that Lord our God made after Noah’s flood in Genesis 9:8-11 (to which verses 12-17 might be added, if we desired to consider the token of the rainbow that the Lord our God gave as evidence for His faithfulness to this covenant), as follows:

“And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.  And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.”

1.  Precisely with whom did the Lord our God make this covenant?

Answer – “And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.”

     A.  With Noah.
     B.  With Noah’s seed after him.
     C.  With every living creature, from those with Noah out of the ark unto every other beast of the earth.

2.  Precisely what is the promise that the Lord our God made with this covenant?

Answer – “Neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.”  (It is important to notice the precise modifiers that the Lord our God included in this promise.)

     A.  The Lord God did not promise that some flesh would not ever be cut off by flood waters, but that “all flesh” would not ever be cut off by flood waters.  Does this allow room for flood waters still to kill multitudes of people at a time?  It does, as long as those flood waters do not kill off all of humanity at a single time.

     B.  The Lord God did not promise that He would never again “destroy the earth,” but that He would never again send “a flood to destroy the earth.”  Does this allow room for the Lord our God yet to destroy the earth by some other means other than by a world-wide flood?  It does, and He has indicated through His Word that He shall do so in the future by means of fire.

3.  Precisely what conditions did the Lord our God include with this covenant?

Answer -- There is nothing to quote because the Lord God did not include any conditions with this covenant.

By this example (over which I do not believe that there is any contention), we are able to observe the importance for the principle of “precise detail,” whereby we may learn precisely the extent of the covenant, the precisely the limits of the covenant, precisely the participants of the covenant, and precisely the conditions of the covenant.

Even so, as we proceed I wish to engage in a study exercise wherein we shall apply the principle of "precise detail" unto the land promise elements within a number of Biblical covenants.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

​Thanks. It would be helpful initially if you list the main points, & perhaps subsequently post each point separately. Otherwise response & selective quotes become unwieldy. 

 

​As per Brother Day's request, I am presenting the main points of my study exercise concerning the land promise elements within a number of Biblical covenants, as follows:

1.  The Lord God’s covenant with Abraham concerning “the land.” (Genesis 17:3-8)

2.  The Lord God’s covenant with Isaac (Genesis 26:2-5) and with Jacob-Israel (Genesis 28:13-15) concerning “the land.”

3.  The Lord God’s covenant with the children of Israel concerning “the land.” (Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 8-14, 15, 21, 25, 36-37, 45-47, 62-64)

4.  The Lord God’s covenant with the children of Israel concerning restoration to “the land.” (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)

5.  The Lord God’s new covenant with the children of Israel concerning “the land.” (Jeremiah 31:31-40; Jeremiah 32:37-42; Ezekiel 36:21-38; Ezekiel 37:19-28)

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Covenanter]

Thanks, Bro. Scott. There is another aspect to take into account: Heb. 11:8-16 

[heartstrings]

I believe that all of the "everlasting covenants" ; the shewbread,  the rainbow....all that stuff are and will be fulfilled in and by the Lord Jesus Christ. Even the "land" that Abraham sojourned after will be fully bestowed exactly as promised.

 

Hebrews 11:8 

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

 

Hebrews 11: 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

That city, I believe, is the city of Zion. All the promises to the Children of Israel and the "seed of Abraham" (Christians) will be fulfilled there in Jesus Christ.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Concerning Romans 11:25-27.

It is correct that the apostle Paul was quoting from Isaiah in Romans 11:26-27.  It is correct that in his original prophetic utterance, Isaiah was employing the future tense to speak concerning an event that was yet future to him.  It is correct that the apostle Paul was quoting the future tense verbs that Isaiah originally employed.

However, in Romans 11:26-27 the apostle Paul was not quoting Isaiah with regard to our Lord Jesus Christ’s first coming to die on the cross and rise again from the dead.  Rather, the apostle Paul was providing this quote from Isaiah as an Old Testament evidence for a statement that he had made at the beginning of Romans 11:26 under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning the children of Israel.  That Holy Spirit inspired statement is as follows, “And so all Israel shall be saved.”

Now, when the apostle Paul made this Holy Spirit inspired statement concerning the salvation of “all Israel,” he also employed a future tense verb (“shall be saved”).  This statement (“And so all Israel shall be saved.”) was not a quote from Isaiah; therefore, it referred to some event that would occur in the future from the apostle’s declaration of the statement in the epistle to the Romans.  Then the apostle made the quote from Isaiah as Old Testament Scriptural evidence for this statement concerning this event that would be future to that moment.  Even so, the future tense verbs of the quotation from Isaiah were presented as being in union with the future tense verb of the statement concerning the salvation of “all Israel” in the future. 

As such, all of these future tense verbs, both in the statement and in the quotation, were a reference to some event that would be future to the apostle’s writing of the epistle to the Romans.  Yet our Lord Jesus Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection was already past tense at that point.  Furthermore, the sending forth of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was already past tense at that point.  In fact, the entire first number of years of the church, wherein the church was comprised only of believing Israelites, was already past tense at that point.  It would seem then that the apostle Paul, under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, could not have been speaking concerning any of those scenarios when he prophesied concerning an event wherein “all Israel shall be saved.”

What then is the contextual flow of thought in Romans 11:23-27 concerning this event?  In Romans 11:23-24 the apostle presented his conclusion to a picture concerning a good olive tree, its natural branches, some of which had been “broken off,” and branches from a wild olive tree that had been “graffed in” to the good olive tree.  Within that picture the natural branches that had been “broken off” represented unbelieving Israelites.  Even so, with the conclusion of Romans 11:23-24, the apostle revealed that these “broken off” branches (these unbelieving Israelites) could be again “graffed into their own olive tree” if they would come to heart-faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

Then in Romans 11:25-27 the apostle Paul revealed a Biblical mystery concerning the children of Israel, in order to warn believing Gentiles not to be wise in their own conceits against unbelieving Israelites.  This Biblical mystery has three basic parts, as follows:

1.  “That blindness in part is happened to Israel.”  This report was presented by the apostle in the present tense.  Therefore, this “in part” spiritual blindness had already begun for the children of Israel, and was a present reality for the children of Israel when the apostle wrote the epistle to the Romans.  Now, it is important to notice that this spiritual blindness upon the children of Israel was not in total, but was only “in part.”  This “in part” spiritual blindness still allows for a small remnant of the children of Israel to be saved through in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

2.  “Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”  This phrase indicates the length of time wherein the “in part” spiritual blindness would continue for the children of Israel.  That “in part” spiritual blindness would continue for the children of Israel until the occurrence and “coming in” of that event which is described as “the fulness of the Gentiles.”

3.  “And so all Israel shall be saved.”  The “and so” of this statement indicates an event that would occur following the event of “the fulness of the Gentiles.”  Even so, this statement is presented in direct contrast to the report concerning the “in part” spiritual blindness upon the children of Israel.  In the first place, this contrast is revealed by the two contrasting phrases, “in part . . . to Israel” and “all Israel.”  In the second place, this contrast is revealed by the two contrasting phrases, “blindness . . . has happened” and “shall be saved.”  It is also important to notice that the event described in this statement (“And so all Israel shall be saved.”) does not allow only for a small remnant to be saved, as in the case of the “in part” reality, but indicates that all of the children of Israel will be saved at whatever time this event would occur.

Now, as I have indicated above, the quotation from Isaiah in Romans 11:26-27 is presented as an Old Testament Scriptural evidence for this statement that “all Israel shall be saved.”  This is signaled by the word “as” in the phrase, “as it is written,” that immediate follows the statement that “all Israel shall be saved.”  Even so, the apostle Paul was guided by God the Holy Spirit to understand that the event about which Isaiah spoke was the same event as that about which he was prophesying concerning the salvation of “all Israel.”  Apparently in this event, the Deliverer, the Lord Jesus Christ, would “come out of Sion” in order to “turn away ungodliness from Jacob,” and in that to “turn away ungodliness” from all of Jacob, since this is supporting quote for the prophetic utterance that “all Israel shall be saved.”  Yet had not the Deliverer, the Lord Jesus Christ, already come once.  Certainly, he had; therefore, this prophetic utterance must be a reference to the Deliverer, the Lord Jesus Christ, coming again. 

With our Lord Jesus Christ’s first coming, spiritual darkness has fallen upon Israel “in part,” such that only a small remnant shall be saved.  Furthermore, with our Lord Jesus Christ’s first coming, the gospel opportunity has been opened wide unto the Gentiles; and this reality shall continue “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”  However, when the event of “the fulness of the Gentiles” occurs, then shall follow the event wherein “all Israel shall be saved,” the event of our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Coming wherein He will turn ungodliness completely and totally from “all Israel.”  Yea, then shall come the event wherein God the Father fulfills His covenant with the children of Israel by which He has promised “to take away their sins,” completely and totally from all of them at that time.

Indeed, “the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”  What He has promised unto the children of Israel in His covenants with them as recorded in the Old Testament, He shall certainly fulfill.  Yea, this He will do because He is by great, good, gracious, and glorious nature the ever true and faithful Lord God!  Amen, and AMEN!!!

[MountainChristian]

I think Israel will have a big revival during the tribulation years. So much so 144,000 virgins are killed. How many non virgins will be killed? Did God hide that from our current knowledge? In Zechariah it sounds like Christians longing for Jesus to return. My favorite part, it would be additional promises that Jesus shall fulfill. 

[Alan]

​Brother Ken,

I thank you for your permission.  However, I now have another problem for which I am pondering a solution.  Last night I completed the development of my proposed posting, and it came out to be 14 pages long.  That seems to be excessively long, even for a loooong posting.  Yet I believe that all of the information therein is of definite significance.  I am presently pondering how I might post it as installments.  I am quite comfortable posting the introductory portion as a first installment, and I shall do so in a moment.  For the rest I continue to ponder.

Any helpful thought by anyone would be appreciated.

​Pastor Markle,

I personally would appreciate the whole 14 pages of your work on the Covenants of God in one format. I am sure the study would provide detailed analysis of the various covenants with the appropriate scriptures involved to be a well worth while study in itself. I also understand the need, due to the length involved, to present the material either in an condensed form, or in installments.

If it is possible to have the whole study in one area of OnLine Baptist for all to see, or, if it would be possible to send the complete study to those who would like to have, either by e-mail, or, we can purchase in booklet form (or by the internet), please let us know.  I for one would like to obtain it.

Alan

[Pastor Scott Markle]

​Pastor Markle,

I personally would appreciate the whole 14 pages of your work on the Covenants of God in one format. I am sure the study would provide detailed analysis of the various covenants with the appropriate scriptures involved to be a well worth while study in itself. I also understand the need, due to the length involved, to present the material either in an condensed form, or in installments.

If it is possible to have the whole study in one area of OnLine Baptist for all to see, or, if it would be possible to send the complete study to those who would like to have, either by e-mail, or, we can purchase in booklet form (or by the internet), please let us know.  I for one would like to obtain it.

Alan

​Brother Alan,

As per your request (and as per Brother Ken's "like"), I am going to try uploading a pdf attachment to this post of the entire fourteen page study.  I have never tried such an attachment before on Online Baptist; therefore, I pray that it works correctly.  If it does work correctly, then I will likely add this same pdf attachment to each of the installments (for the sake of easy access) as I proceed on this thread.

Let us see if this works?

 

Concerning Gods Covenants & The Land.pdf

Edited June 11, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Alan]

Pastor Markle,

Thank you for the study, 'Concerning God's Covenants & Land.pdf. ' file. I double-checked it on my Microsoft Word file and all went well with the upload. It works fine.

I do appreciate it very much as it will help with a more proper understanding, (in one paper), of the Covenants of God and how to more correctly refute the false doctrines in our age concerning the fulfilment of the convenants of God to the nation of Israel. I am also sure that it will be of a help to the other brethren as well.

 

[DaveW]

​Brother Alan,

As per your request (and as per Brother Ken's "like"), I am going to try uploading a pdf attachment to this post of the entire fourteen page study.  I have never tried such an attachment before on Online Baptist; therefore, I pray that it works correctly.  If it does work correctly, then I will likely add this same pdf attachment to each of the installments (for the sake of easy access) as I proceed on this thread.

Let us see if this works?

Concerning Gods Covenants & The Land.pdf

​Brother Scott, if I could make a suggestion please - I understand that this is not an officially published document, but if you could in the future insert your name under the heading or similar, it would make it easier to keep track of where these files come from in years to come. Your name is in the "properties" for the file, and I have renamed this file to include it.

I like to be able to keep track of the source of materials for future reference.

Thanks,

Dave.

[beameup]

I believe any covenant made which was based upon the law of Sinai, everlasting or otherwise, is based also upon the keeping of both parties. The Sinai law was temporary, until Jesus came, thus, it was not everlasting in character. Often we see God demanding obedience on their part as part of His honoring His part. However, the covenant made with Abraham was made only BY God TO Abraham and HIs descendants, including the spiritual descendants, modern-day believers. This covenant was the covenant of promise, of faith, which was extended in Christ to all who believe. A physical descendant of Abraham is not necessarily included in it, (as we see with Ishmael and his descendants), unless today they follow in faith in Christ Jesus. I do believe that a remnant of physical Jews will yet be saved as they see Christ return in His glory, as we see in Zechariah 12. But then they will believe, and for them, I guess it will count.

​In the case of Abraham being given the land, Abraham was put into a deep sleep and God passed between the halves of the sacrifice. So, it is unconditional.

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:  Genesis 15:18

Edited June 11, 2015 by beameup

[Pastor Scott Markle]

​Brother Scott, if I could make a suggestion please - I understand that this is not an officially published document, but if you could in the future insert your name under the heading or similar, it would make it easier to keep track of where these files come from in years to come. Your name is in the "properties" for the file, and I have renamed this file to include it.

I like to be able to keep track of the source of materials for future reference.

Thanks,

Dave.

​Brother Dave,

As per your request, I have now changed the heading of the pdf to include my name as the author and my website (www.shepherdingtheflock.com) for the contact information.  I have also replaced the previously uploaded pdf with this newly updated pdf.  I believe that everything worked correctly in the upload replacement. 

I pray that this (both the article itself as well as these updates) will be of help to others.

[Covenanter]

I've only quoted one of Bro. Scott's posts, despite the formatting. @BroMatt

 

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[Covenanter]

I've only quoted one of Bro. Scott's posts, despite the formatting. @BroMatt

 

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