The Spiritual Progression of Human Souls.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, John Young said:

My goal with this study is to rectify the "sin nature" doctrine so that it takes into account the "age of accountability" doctrine and the fact that scripture teaches that God gives all spirits and creates the child in the womb.

Indeed, I understood that this was your purpose from your original posting -- to cancel the doctrine of a sinful nature from conception in order to accommodate the doctrine of babies' being "spiritually innocent" until "the age of accountability."

In order that you may have full awareness, I myself do not at all agree with your proposal.  As the discussions proceeds, I may have more time to engage with the details of that disagreement.

[Jim_Alaska]

Brother John,

The "sin nature doctrine" as you call it does not need to be rectified. Your contention that we are sinners because we learn to sin from our parents and the world around us, is the reverse of what actually takes place. We can see by simple observation that we do not have to teach a child to sin, but conversely we must teach the child to not sin.

Perhaps it may help to study and answer the question of why Jesus had to be conceived of the Holy Ghost, rather than Joseph. I won't elaborate on this since it would derail your OP and change the subject. It is just something that may help you in your personal study, and help you understand that every living thing has its own unique "nature".

That is why I gave you the illustration of a dog. Even in that short illustration you can see that the thinking that sin makes the sinner is flawed.

 Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 
 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 
 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 
 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 
 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 
 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 
 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 
 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

According to these verses we all inherited Adam's sinful nature. This makes it a question of genetics, rather than learning.

[John81]

This reminds me of those nature vs nurture battles in university. It never ceased to amaze me how many professors would claim babies are born as a beautiful, pure, blank slate of goodness and it was only prejudiced influence and teaching of parents and others which corrupted the innocent child...which presumably, if the baby could care for itself, would grow up to be a perfect, flawless adult without outside influence.

No amount of evidence to the contrary could ever change their position or admit the other position might have some valid points.

Scripture is clear we are born sinners and observation supports that position.

[Invicta]

you don't have to teach a baby to be disobedient. 

[John Young]

Perhaps I need to clarify the position on flesh and its role from paragraph three. "from the time of Adam all flesh has been corrupted by the sinful actions of people and is currently in a fallen state." The body of flesh is fallen in Adam and is corrupted and it will die regardless of salvation until until the redemption. It is also part of that Nature we are born into. I agree to that but the primary thrust is to track the soul. The soul initially is not sinful but it is in a fallen body. I do believe because of fallen flesh our soul will soon sin and scripture says: "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". (Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20). This also being the reason Paul could state in Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 8:20-23 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Edited June 9, 2016 by John Young

[John Young]

21 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Brother John,

The "sin nature doctrine" as you call it does not need to be rectified. Your contention that we are sinners because we learn to sin from our parents and the world around us, is the reverse of what actually takes place. We can see by simple observation that we do not have to teach a child to sin, but conversely we must teach the child to not sin. 

My contention would be that humans are sinners because they decide to sin. Our fallen bodies and the world we live in just makes it easy. For example, even before Adam fell, when no one ever sinned, they still had the capacity to sin and fall from innocence. God even says Satan was created perfect by Him but fell because of his own iniquity. Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. In John 8:44, Christ references Satan as being "a murderer from the beginning". So scripturally "from" is AFTER and not before or when he was created. Man too is said to have been created by God upright but sought out many "inventions." Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Scripturally, we are sinners because we decide to sin after we each are created. This is why I am having trouble with the common phrase "We are born sinners so we sin". Humanity does not have to be "born sinners" in order to sin because without accepting Christ, and receiving the sealing power of God, all souls will chose sin and fall eventually, regardless of their initial state.

Perhaps it may help to study and answer the question of why Jesus had to be conceived of the Holy Ghost, rather than Joseph. I won't elaborate on this since it would derail your OP and change the subject. It is just something that may help you in your personal study, and help you understand that every living thing has its own unique "nature".

I know it is common to infer that it was so He would not be tainted with sinful flesh which is only passed down by the father but I've yet to see clear scriptural justification for the statement. There are several other reasons given not pertinent to discussion here. More scripturally Joseph could not be the father because God was to be the father. While a perfect human sacrifice was the appeasement for sin, by the Heavenly relationship to God thru Christ we received permanent placement in Him thru the Holy Spirit that keeps us from falling again and needing a new sacrifice.

That is why I gave you the illustration of a dog. Even in that short illustration you can see that the thinking that sin makes the sinner is flawed.

I think starting from the term sinner is flawed because we are not born "sinners" rather we are born Man. The body of man is cut off from God because of Adam's sin and by genetic default will die because he allowed sin to have a place. Apart from that however I believe God deals with souls apart from the body. I believe all souls are alive and without sin but if they do not receive Christ and they chose to sin, that act will make them a sinner worthy of the second death. Sin of the soul is a willful action not simply the genetic defect inherited through the body.

 Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [this is an action verb not a noun. The body dies because Adam's sin let in death but the soul dies the second death because they themselves sin]
 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  [Romans 7:9]
 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 
 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 
 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 
 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 
 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 
 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners [does not meant "made with sin" but "made to sin"], so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. [just as the gift is received in faith to take effect in the soul, so too, I believe the soul needs to chose to sin for sin to take it's effect and for God to consider that soul to be a sinner]

According to these verses we all inherited Adam's sinful nature. This makes it a question of genetics, rather than learning.

Perhaps a better case could be made that we inherited death by sin. Our bodies receive death because of Adam and our souls receive the second death because of our own sin. 

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

So then, what is the condition of the human spirit in all of this?

[wretched]

Fascinating interaction going on in this thread IMO.

I see both sides of the discussion but lean towards John Young's line of thought more for these reasons:

Although all are born with the inevitable destiny to sin continually. Being born dead Spiritually and being physically born into a sin cursed, sin ridden and sin ruled world under satan's dominion, absolutely nothing negates free will whether Spiritually dead in trespasses and sins or quickened by the Spirit.

Sin cursed man to sin, not God and Adam's fall did not cause God to cause us to be helpless to sin.

Being born dead in trespasses and sins is a statement of fact based on God's omniscience and is not a helpless condition we have no individual control over IMO. I know it is a very fine line.

 

[John81]

If any of us were born able not to sin then the law would have been enough and there would have been no need of a Redeemer.

 

[Ukulelemike]

16 hours ago, John Young said:

Perhaps I need to clarify the position on flesh and its role from paragraph three. "from the time of Adam all flesh has been corrupted by the sinful actions of people and is currently in a fallen state." The body of flesh is fallen in Adam and is corrupted and it will die regardless of salvation until until the redemption. It is also part of that Nature we are born into. I agree to that but the primary thrust is to track the soul. The soul initially is not sinful but it is in a fallen body. I do believe because of fallen flesh our soul will soon sin and scripture says: "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". (Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20). This also being the reason Paul could state in Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. This is the very verse I was going to bring up. How could Paul say he was alive ONCE, but then the commandment came, sin REVIVED, (it wasn't gone, just inactive, not counted), and he died.  There is no 'age of accountability' in this, I believe-rather there is a time of accountability, a time that one has a clear enough understanding of right and wrong, the coming of the commandment, as it were, and with each I suppose it comes at a different time. Some, like those mentally deficient, might come at a much later time, some, I daresay, not at all, perhaps, because if there is NO understanding due to no fault of that person, can the commandment come and cause them to die?    

 

 

[John Young]

18 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, what is the condition of the human spirit in all of this?

Wow! The study of spirits and the human spirit in particular is an interesting subject in and of itself that is worthy of its own discussion! I'm not sure how much I can cover in a short reply but I think it is still pertinent to the subject.  As you may know a spirit motivates, moves, gives life, understanding and discernment to the body and in addition to the human spirit given by God, additional spirits can either oppress or enter in and control a body so that the soul of a man (the part of us that is uniquely us and ultimately makes all choices) is vexed to do things he otherwise would not do when he is in his right mind and spirit. Those oppressing and possessing spirits can be sent by God or they can be working on behalf of the devil.  For now I'll try to limit my response to some of the things I think scripture teaches about the human spirit with the understanding that other spirits cannot enter into a man without that man first yielding his soul to it.

Human spirits are formed by God after his likeness to create souls thru uniting with flesh. When the human spirit enters into the body of flesh this union is what creates a living soul which is not just spirit or body yet uses both to live in, and to discern, and grow from, the spiritual and material world around itself. The human spirit, in one sense, is a free agent while created by God it is not yet in direct communion with God nor is it in direct communion with the devil. The soul can direct that spirit to commune with other spirits. Natural men while animated by a human spirit still need to receive the Spirit of Christ in order to be preserved from death, to become sons of God, and to continue his spiritual growth. However, if they receive the devil then they will become sons of the devil. A spirit united with the devil (by marriage or spiritual fornication) has become one with a beast (a created creature) which will not return to God but rather down to hell taking the soul (us) with it. The spirit not yet "married" or in "fornication" simply returns to God with the (underdeveloped?) soul with it. 

John 1:1-13 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.....9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.....11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 6:16-18 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:44-47 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Ephesians 1:13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Edited June 10, 2016 by John Young

[John Young]

14 hours ago, John81 said:

If any of us were born able not to sin then the law would have been enough and there would have been no need of a Redeemer.

That would not be true because the law is not made for righteous men but for wicked men. The only reason we have a law is because of sin but when we are married to Christ in faith then we are no longer under the law. The law teaches natural man to be obedient until faith can come and unite them to God thru Christ. Salvation from sin is only the partial work of Christ. Christ was for ordained before the foundation of the world before sin even existed in order that it would be possible for souls to become one with God (John 17). Without that union even Adam and Eve born sinless and into a perfect sinless environment could not survive long without eventually sinning and falling from grace. The work of Christ makes it possible for us NOT to fall even if we sin. When we finally finish our development we will be completely like Christ. The work of Christ is two fold. Giving us God's promises of mercy and giving us promises of His grace.

I do not believe souls are able to stay "sinless" by their own selves apart from Christ. That is the nature of free will. It is possible of themselves to chose to do right but that all will eventually chose wrong and fall into disobedience. If Adam and Eve could chose it then how much the more we who live constantly surrounded by sin? Innocents apart from Christ will always result in a fall when knowledge comes. They need Christ regardless of their sin condition.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Galatians 3:19-28 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:1-3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Proverbs 16:17-18 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul. 18 Pride goeth before destruction,and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 4:17-19 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Edited June 10, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

So then, is Romans 7:7-25 a description of a believer's battle with inner sin, or a description of a lost person's battle with inner sin?

[John Young]

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, is Romans 7:7-25 a description of a believer's battle with inner sin, or a description of a lost person's battle with inner sin?

Paul is obviously saved but he is using his "testimony" about how the law worked in his own life from start to finish.

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh [not married to chrsit], the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came [the call to follow God's laws], sin revived, and I died.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment [just like with eve], deceived me, and by it slew me [the soul that sinnith it shall die].

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin [the body is still subject to sin and will be until the redemption].

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [Jesus saved his soul and will save him from his body] So then with the mind [soul] I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh [body] the law of sin.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

 

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:10 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, I understood that this was your purpose from your original posting -- to cancel the doctrine of a sinful nature from conception in order to accommodate the doctrine of babies' being "spiritually innocent" until "the age of accountability."

In order that you may have full awareness, I myself do not at all agree with your proposal.  As the discussions proceeds, I may have more time to engage with the details of that disagreement.

Brother Young,

Earlier in this thread I indicated that I do not agree with your position and that I might engage with that disagreement when I had more time to do so.  To this point I have asked quick questions in order to understand more fully your position concerning various passages that would relate to the subject.  Presently, however, I have a small bit of time; therefore, I wish to ask a question that is intended to open that discussion of disagreement between us.

In a previous posting you indicated your position that all human individuals do indeed come into this world already "under sin," as follows:

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 8:40 AM, John Young said:

I agree that we have a tendency towards sin because are all born under sin and are influenced by it to quickly fall from innocents but I do not see where the scriptures say that souls are sinners before or by mere fact of birth alone. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Could you please explain, according to your position, what it means for a human individual to be born "under sin" (as per Romans 3:9 & Galatians 3:22)?