Were old testament believers indwelt?

[Ronda]

Pastor Markle, I do agree with the differences in the "infilling" as in comparison with the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. I also agree that the Holy Spirit did not indwell anyone prior to Pentecost. Actually, I agreed with MOST of your post. 

However, I do not agree with this statement: 

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet was this baptism with the Holy Spirit a one time event?  I would contend that it was not

I contend that it was a "one-time-event", and occurred during the moment of accepting Christ, and I will use one of the same verse as scriptural back-up that you used and I will also use John 4:14 as further scriptural back-up:

1 Cor.12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

John 4:14 "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
 

While I so believe that we are indwelt AND baptized into the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. We are baptized INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that could ever wane or need to be repeated (neither in full or in part) ever again. We drank into the body of Christ the Holy Spirit (as John 4:14 also shows). It is eternal. So I disagree and I state that the Baptism of the Spirit was a one time event.

 I also believe that the Lord can also "fill" us more fully work more mightily in us with His Holy Spirit according to HIS desires and HIS purposes, at some points in our Christian lives than at other times.. *** Col 1:29 "Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."

For instance the gifts of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 (and before anyone starts shouting "charismatic" please allow me to finish...) were given given by the Lord for specific purposes. Such gifts as tongues, healing, snake handling, drinking poison, etc. are no longer in use as gifts of the Spirit, because they fulfilled their purpose in the early years (the Jews required a sign and were given many of them, these gifts are not needed in this current dispensation... as we see even Paul couldn't heal Timothy and he also had physical complaints as well once the "sign gifts" were removed). Once the specific gift was no longer needed, the Lord took those gifts away (now remaineth faith, hope, charity). That said, I do believe the Lord can also use us with other such gifts, (NOT sign-gifts...NOT tongues, NOT laying on of hands, NOT drinking deadly poison, etc)  such as you could attest to in the gift He gave you in preaching. I would say that to God be the glory for that gift, and that it was not of yourself, but of the Lord filling you with that specific gift of the Holy Spirit (in your case preaching). Yes it was indeed a calling... but without the God-given ability through the Holy Spirit I do not believe you would have felt called.  For many others it is musical, or teaching, or missionary work... something the Lord has prepared and filled them with that specific gift from the Holy Spirit with. All of which stem from faith, hope, and charity (love), and all of which serve HIS purpose and for HIS good pleasure. And none of which we would be able to do without His calling and His giving us the ability through that specific gift of the Holy Spirit He put in us. I believe that 1 Corinthians 12 covers this well. 1 Cor. 12:18 "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." and 1 Cor, 12:24 "For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked"... It's difficult to pick one or two passages out to show the example, since I believe the entire chapter shows this. 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Ronda
strike thru, and further clarification on "working mightily within us"

[Ronda]

26 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Sister Ronda,

Thank you for your well thought out and presented post. I would be happy to answer your questions and try to clarify any confusion I may have caused. I would ask that I might have some time to answer your questions in the order you presented them and with better clarity. I ask for time for personal reasons that pertain to time constraints on my part in regard to the very recent loss of three family members that require my attention to "end of life" issues.

I do understand why you may be confused by what I wrote simply because my statements were a very condensed version of a very big subject that should really be part of an extended study, rather than a simple post on a message forum.

Thank you for your understanding and patience as well as your manner of asking for clarification rather than trying to flame my post and me.

God bless you as you serve Him.

Thank you very much, brother Jim. And certainly take time as needed. I will be praying for your family (and you) in these difficult times. 

God bless you in your serving Him as well. 

 

[HappyChristian]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

To post, or not to post -- That is the question.  Brother Kurecki, when you first posted this, I had a desire to present my answer; however, I did not have the time to provide a complete answer.  Nor have I had the time until the present.  Yet I see that the thread has certainly reached a "pot stirred" character.  So then, I have pondered and prayed whether I should, or should not add my thoughts and likely "stir the pot" all the more.  Well, here is my "two cents" on the matter --

First, I would contend that we need to understand the difference in the reality and character between Holy Spirit indwelling and Holy Spirit infilling.  By definition both indwelling and infilling speak concerning an "inside" work of the Holy Spirit.  When we consider the work of dwelling, we consider a dwelling in some place.  Also when we consider the work of filling, we consider a filling up of something through pouring something in unto the full.  Yet although the reality of both indwelling and infilling involves an "inside" work of the Holy Spirit, there is a difference between the character of the indwelling and infilling.  Whereas the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit has a permanent, "always continuous," "for ever" character; the infilling work of the Holy Spirit has a "moment-by-moment," "in-and-out," repeatable character.  Even so, the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit begins for the believer at the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, and continues forever without any break.  However, the infilling work of the Holy Spirit occurs "moment-by-moment" for the believer only as the believer yields unto the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit.

Second, I would contend that while the infilling work of the Holy Spirit did indeed exist for Old Testament believers, the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit did not.  Furthermore, I would contend that New Testament believers alone have the privilege to experience both the indwelling work and the infilling work of the Holy Spirit.  Concerning the infilling work of the Holy Spirit for both Old and New Testament believers, we are able to find passages that specifically refer to the filling of the Holy Spirit both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.  Concerning the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit only for New Testament believers, I would submit John 14:16-17 -- "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."  In this passage our Lord Jesus Christ spoke concerning a present (at the moment wherein He was speaking) work of the Holy Spirit and a future (from the moment wherein He was speaking) work of the Holy Spirit.  He revealed the present work with the following statement -- "For he dwelleth [presen tense] with you."  He revealed the future work with the following statement -- "And shall be [future tense] in you."  Even so, this future (from the moment wherein the Lord was speaking) work of the Holy Spirit was not simply that the Holy Spirit would dwell with the disciples, but that He would dwell in the disciples.  Furthermore, in this passage our Lord Jesus Christ indicated the future timing wherein this work of "dwelling in" would occur -- "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter."  Finally, in this passage our Lord Jesus indicated that this future work of "dwelling in" by the Holy Spirit would be a "for ever" work -- "And he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever."  So then, the "for ever" work of "dwelling in" by the Holy Spirit would not begin until sometime after the Lord Jesus Christ had ascended into heaven.

Third, I would contend that the baptism with the Holy Spirit, while having a different focus in purpose, is directly unified with the very first moment of the indwelling work by the Holy Spirit at the very moment of a believer's faith in Christ for salvation.  Indeed, I might even contend that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the very work of the Lord Jesus Christ whereby the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is initiated.  In his preaching John the Baptist declared the One coming after him (that is -- the Lord Jesus Christ) would baptize believers "with the Holy Ghost." (See Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16)  In Acts 1:4-5 our Lord Jesus Christ revealed unto His disciples that this baptism with the Holy Spirit would occur "not many days hence" from the time wherein He was speaking -- "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."  The fulfillment of this would then appear to be that which occurred on the Day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2.  Yet was this baptism with the Holy Spirit a one time event?  I would contend that it was not, for in Acts 11:16 the apostle Peter explained the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit unto the Gentiles by employing the very teaching of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.  Furthermore, in 1 Corinthians 12:12 the apostle Paul spoke concerning the baptism with the Holy Spirit for the sake of every New Testament believer, and further indicated that this baptism was joined with a partaking of ("made to drink into") the Holy Spirit (which I believe is a reference unto the "for ever" work of "dwelling in" by the Holy Spirit).

Fourth, I would contend that the infilling work of the Holy Spirit for Old Testament believers is one of various evidences that Old Testament believers were indeed regenerated ("born again") spiritually.  Indeed, I would contend for the truth that it is spiritually impossible for God the Holy Spirit to infill an unregenerate individual, who is yet spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."  Even so, I would contend that we should maintain a distinction in our understanding between the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit.

I do pray that these thoughts will be of some help in the discussion, and will not add too much more "fuel to the fire."

[Critical Mass]

The "spirit of God" and "the Spirit of God" are not the same thing. No more than the "son of God" (aka Adam) and the "Son of God" are the same thing. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

10 hours ago, Ronda said:

Pastor Markle, I do agree with the differences in the "infilling" as in comparison with the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit. I also agree that the Holy Spirit did not indwell anyone prior to Pentecost. Actually, I agreed with MOST of your post. 

However, I do not agree with this statement: 

I contend that it was a "one-time-event", and occurred during the moment of accepting Christ, and I will use one of the same verse as scriptural back-up that you used and I will also use John 4:14 as further scriptural back-up:

1 Cor.12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

John 4:14 "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
 

While I so believe that we are indwelt AND baptized into the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. We are baptized INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that could ever wane or need to be repeated (neither in full or in part) ever again. We drank into the body of Christ the Holy Spirit (as John 4:14 also shows). It is eternal. So I disagree and I state that the Baptism of the Spirit was a one time event.

Sister Ronda,

Actually, if I am understanding you correctly, we are NOT in disagreement on this matter.  Rather, it seems that you have misunderstood the intent of my comments.

On the one hand, I myself DO indeed believe that every individual believer experiences the baptism with the Holy Spirit at the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, and that this baptism with the Holy Spirit is a singular, unrepeated work of the Lord Jesus Christ in the case of each individual believer, whereby each individual believer is spiritually baptized by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ in/with the substance of the Holy Spirit into "the body of Christ," and whereby the permanent indwelling work of the Holy Spirit is initiated for each individual believer.

On the other hand, when I made the following comments:

13 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet was this baptism with the Holy Spirit a one time event?  I would contend that it was not . . . .

I was not speaking concerning the case of each individual believer.  Rather, I was speaking concerning the specific event on the Day of Pentecost, even as the immediately preceding context to my above comments would have revealed, as follows:

13 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In his preaching John the Baptist declared the One coming after him (that is -- the Lord Jesus Christ) would baptize believers "with the Holy Ghost." (See Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16)  In Acts 1:4-5 our Lord Jesus Christ revealed unto His disciples that this baptism with the Holy Spirit would occur "not many days hence" from the time wherein He was speaking -- "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."  The fulfillment of this would then appear to be that which occurred on the Day of Pentecost, as recorded in Acts 2.  Yet was this baptism [the one just mentioned in the sentence immediately previous, that is -- the one that occurred on the Day of Pentecost] with the Holy Spirit a one time event?  I would contend that it was not . . . . 

(emphasis and parenthetical explanation added by Pastor Scott Markle)

So then, my additional explanation, as follows:

13 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet was this baptism with the Holy Spirit a one time event?  I would contend that it was not, for in Acts 11:16 the apostle Peter explained the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit unto the Gentiles by employing the very teaching of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.  Furthermore, in 1 Corinthians 12:12 the apostle Paul spoke concerning the baptism with the Holy Spirit for the sake of every New Testament believer, and further indicated that this baptism was joined with a partaking of ("made to drink into") the Holy Spirit (which I believe is a reference unto the "for ever" work of "dwelling in" by the Holy Spirit).

Was intended to reveal that the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was NOT "a one time event," but was repeated at least in the case of Cornelius and his household, and is repeated in the case of each individual believer as per 1 Corinthians 12:12.

_________________________________________________

To all,

Having provided my above explanation unto Sister Ronda, I do wish to employ it as an example for carefulness in Bible study.

When reading any material, in order to acquire a correct understanding of that material, it is not only important to consider the precise wording and grammar of the material, but is also important to consider the flow of thought within the immediate context of the material.  When we remove and wrest a statement out of its immediate context, it is easy to come unto a misunderstanding as to the original intent of the comment.  Such carefulness concerning the immediate context is especially important in the realm of Bible study; for if we come to a misunderstanding concerning the original intent of a comment in the Scriptures, we can go far astray in our doctrine and application.

[Ronda]

16 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

Yet was this baptism with the Holy Spirit a one time event?  I would contend that it was not, for in Acts 11:16 the apostle Peter explained the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit unto the Gentiles by employing the very teaching of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.  Furthermore, in 1 Corinthians 12:12 the apostle Paul spoke concerning the baptism with the Holy Spirit for the sake of every New Testament believer, and further indicated that this baptism was joined with a partaking of ("made to drink into") the Holy Spirit (which I believe is a reference unto the "for ever" work of "dwelling in" by the Holy Spirit).

Pastor Markle, I do appreciate your further explaining, as I did not see (in context even) how you were relating it to an individual believer until you so further stated:

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Was intended to reveal that the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was NOT "a one time event," but was repeated at least in the case of Cornelius and his household, and is repeated in the case of each individual believer as per 1 Corinthians 12:12.

The confusion came because within the context of the paragraph the words "for the sake of every  New Testament believer" seemed (to me) to be a lumping together of said believer's, instead of "each individual believer", as further clarified by you.  Thank you for responding, and clarifying. I do agree that careful study of precise wording is truly important, and I agree wholeheartedly that precise grammar is important in understanding precise meaning. Thank you again for the further clarification on "each individual believer" as that is what I believe God's words to mean precisely in 1 Cor. 12.

[MountainChristian]

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Can you write about Enoch and his relation with the Holy Spirit and being translated? How can a man not born again be translated?

 

 

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 10:23 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

Sister Ronda,

Thank you for your well thought out and presented post. I would be happy to answer your questions and try to clarify any confusion I may have caused. I would ask that I might have some time to answer your questions in the order you presented them and with better clarity. I ask for time for personal reasons that pertain to time constraints on my part in regard to the very recent loss of three family members that require my attention to "end of life" issues.

I do understand why you may be confused by what I wrote simply because my statements were a very condensed version of a very big subject that should really be part of an extended study, rather than a simple post on a message forum.

Thank you for your understanding and patience as well as your manner of asking for clarification rather than trying to flame my post and me.

God bless you as you serve Him.

Jim, I'm sorry for your loss. You and your family are in my prayers.

[Jim_Alaska]

17 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Can you write about Enoch and his relation with the Holy Spirit and being translated? How can a man not born again be translated?

 

 

Jim, I'm sorry for your loss. You and your family are in my prayers.

Thank you MC. deaths in the family are always hard, but three at one time are almost unbearable. I lost a sister and brother-in-law husband and wife. I also lost my mother-in-law. All three were under very harrowing circumstances. The good part is that my sister and brother-in -law were saved.

We're still dealing with the aftermath of my mother-in-laws death in the settlement of her estate. This is hard to do when you have to travel to another state to take care of important matters. It takes a whole day to just get there and deal with the problems and come home.

Thank you again for your concern and prayers.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

27 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Can you write about Enoch and his relation with the Holy Spirit and being translated? How can a man not born again be translated?

Brother Ken,

May I ask to whom you were presenting your question above?

[MountainChristian]

Brother Scott please feel free to answer.

 

[John Young]

We are saved by the Grace of God the Father through our faith in Christ. The OT believer was saved this way as well but they were not redeemed until after Christ died for us on the cross. This is the reason why the OT believers had to wait in "Abraham's Bosom" until Christ could redeem them (Luke 16:22, Ephesians 4). The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God which comes in the name of Christ to continue and fulfill the work of Christ while He is ministering in heaven on our behalf (John 14:26). While Christ was with them they did not need the Holy Ghost giving them direction individually or corporately even though they were without a doubt saved and sealed by the Holy Ghost (John 17) because they had Christ with them; but after Christ departed they needed the Holy Ghost to give them direction and power for the work ahead. Its rather the same as what occurred in Numbers 11 for the nation of Israel. Its not as if the Spirit of God was not working in the hearts of man until pentecost but rather after the redemption His method of operation changed to that of empowering permanently every individual into the body and salvation work of Christ rather then just a select few in the work of guiding Israel as a Holy nation. While the elect throughout history had been kept and sealed, etc. by the Holy Spirit not all the elect had the privilege of being directly indwelt until after the redemption and had to rely on the prophets for guidance (Hebrews 1:1-2a).

Edited January 21, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

18 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Can you write about Enoch and his relation with the Holy Spirit and being translated? How can a man not born again be translated?

Brother Ken,

As you may be aware, I myself DO believe that Old Testament believers WERE INDEED regenerated (born again); therefore, my answer to your question would come from the bias of agreement with your implied position.  (Note: On the other hand, I also maintain a distinction between the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, which I would view as a one-time work upon a believer, and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit, which I would view as a permanently continuous work within a believer; and in maintaining this distinction, I further believe that while Old Testament believers were indeed regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they were NOT permanently and continuously indwelt by the Holy Spirit (recognizing also the distinction between the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit and the infilling work of the Holy Spirit).)

Concerning Enoch, I would contend that his case is yet another evidence that Old Testament believers were indeed regenerated (born again).  Yea, I would agree with the implied sentiment of your question -- How COULD an Old Testament believer be translated unto the heavenly presence of the Lord God, such that he did not at all experience death, if that believer was not a spiritually regenerated (born again) individual?  In addition, how could that Old Testament believer even walk so closely WITH the Lord God, if he was not spiritually regenerated (born again), but was yet spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," and was yet "alienated from the life of God," and was yet a child of the devil and of disobedience, and was yet a servant of sin, being "free from righteousness," and was yet spiritually darkened in understanding and blinded in heart, and was yet given in heart unto the lusts of his flesh, "fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"?

In truth, as I ponder the debate over whether or no Old Testament believers were spiritually regenerated (born again), I begin to fear that the foundational problem is a lack of Biblical understanding concerning the doctrine of spiritual regeneration itself.  Indeed, I am even considering the possibility of starting a thread specifically to discuss that very doctrine.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

4 hours ago, John Young said:

We are saved by the Grace of God the Father through our faith in Christ. The OT believer was saved this way as well but they were not redeemed until after Christ died for us on the cross. This is the reason why the OT believers had to wait in "Abraham's Bosom" until Christ could redeem them (Luke 16:22, Ephesians 4). 

Brother Young,

1.  Do you then disregard all of the "redemption" and "Redeemer" references in the Old Testament as being strictly circumstantial, and not at all spiritual?

2.  Considering Romans 3:24 -- "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," how could Old Testament believers be justified before God if such justification is "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," yet they did not experience that redemption?

3.  Considering Ephesians 1:& -- "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace," and Colossians 1:14 -- "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins," how could Old Testament believers have experience forgiveness of sins, and thereby receive eternal salvation, if redemption through Christ's blood is directly equivalent to "the forgiveness of sins," yet they did not experience that redemption?

Edited January 21, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[John Young]

59 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Young,

1.  Do you then disregard all of the "redemption" and "Redeemer" references in the Old Testament as being strictly circumstantial, and not at all spiritual?

2.  Considering Romans 3:24 -- "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," how could Old Testament believers be justified before God if such justification is "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," yet they did not experience that redemption?

3.  Considering Ephesians 1:& -- "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace," and Colossians 1:14 -- "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins," how could Old Testament believers have experience forgiveness of sins, and thereby receive eternal salvation, if redemption through Christ's blood is directly equivalent to "the forgiveness of sins," yet they did not experience that redemption?

Sorry Brother Markle but I do not quite follow what you are asking me but I'll try to respond.

1. The OT references several redemptions; from bondage, from death, from sin, from slavery, National redemption for the nation of Israel from Eygpt etc. I believe them all to be literal redemptions with spiritual truths pointing to the future redemption of Christ.

2. Hebrews 11:13 seems to be clear that while the promised redemption of Christ from death and sin were yet future, the cause of their salvation was faith in those promises. It goes on to say in verse that Moses chose the reproach of Christ.

3. Hebrews 10 is clear that they hoped in the future Christ and not in the animal sacrifices. I would have to say it is simular to the fact that spiritually we have eternal life now and freedom from sin now although we are still physically bound in a fallen world and fallen flesh. They had salvation at the moment of faith and hoped in Christ to redeem their souls and at His Resurrection rose with him from the graves (Matthew 27:51-53). They looked forward to the promised redemption of their spirit from death just as we now look for the future redemption of our physical bodies from death.

 

[Jim_Alaska]

Bretheren,

Further back in this thread Sister Ronda and I got a bit off of the topic of the OP, which was: " Were old testament believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit".

Sister Ronda asked me a series of questions regarding the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which I agreed to answer for her. I have finished my response to her questions. In preparation for posting my response I realized that we had inadvertently strayed off topic and were in fact hijacking the OP's thread.

Sister Ronda and I have agreed to open a new thread rather than continue in this one. I just wanted to explain to anyone that was waiting for my response and wondering why it was not forthcoming.

My sincere apologies to the OP for dragging his original thread off topic.