Everlasting Covenants?

[MountainChristian]

1. The Rainbow, Genesis 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

2. Abraham, Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. & Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. & Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. & Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. & 1 Chronicles 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, & Psalms 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: & Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. & Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. & Isaiah 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. & Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. & Ezekiel 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. & Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

3. Show Bread, Leviticus 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

4. Phinehas Priesthood, Numbers 25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: ¹³ And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

5. David's Kingship/Kingdom, 2 Samuel 23:5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

6. Jesus, Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, ⁶ Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

If one of the everlasting covenants isn't in use today does that mean everlasting has failed? We know the Jews lost their land once for 70 years and another time for almost 1900 years, so did the covenant fail the 1st time? the 2nd time? They lost the show bread during those same two times, does that mean it failed? The same with David's Kingdom during those times, does that mean it failed before Jesus arrived? If it didn't fail but the others did, why is it different? If those everlasting covenants fail why will Jesus' not fail or has it failed too?

The other covenants God made were they everlasting too? Can God make a covenant to last only so long? Can God change his mind and destroy an everlasting covenant? Can man who is temporary destroy an everlasting covenant?

[DaveW]

A covenant is a contract or promise.

There are two basic k8nd of covenant:

1. A conditional covenant. This is where the covenant could be stated in a manner duch as "If you will do this, Then I will do that".

In this instance the second person only keeps their promise if the first person fulfills their part.

Example: If you pay me $10, I will make you breakfast.

2. An unconditional covenant. This is where the covenant could be stated in a manner such as "I will do that no matter what you do."

This is a "no strings attached" covenant, where the first persom in this case will keep their promise regardless of the actions of the other person.

Example: a loving marriage relationship. It doesn't matter if she comes to hate me, I will always keep my vows to her.

 

The Bible contains both.

 

However, and unconditional covenant can only be broken by the promiser, and then ONLY UNJUSTLY.

A conditional promise is more complicated, as the wording indicates whether the covenantbis broken by the non-performance of one party, or simply suspended.

Some are stated such: "while you do this, I will do that."

In this case, if stop doing this, then the other will stop doing that,  but when you start doing your part, the other also starts doing his part.

In some cases though it is possible that the covenant only lives until the requirement is forsaken.

For God to break an unconditional everlasting covenant would make God a liar.

[Ukulelemike]

I believe any covenant made which was based upon the law of Sinai, everlasting or otherwise, is based also upon the keeping of both parties. The Sinai law was temporary, until Jesus came, thus, it was not everlasting in character. Often we see God demanding obedience on their part as part of His honoring His part. However, the covenant made with Abraham was made only BY God TO Abraham and HIs descendants, including the spiritual descendants, modern-day believers. This covenant was the covenant of promise, of faith, which was extended in Christ to all who believe. A physical descendant of Abraham is not necessarily included in it, (as we see with Ishmael and his descendants), unless today they follow in faith in Christ Jesus. I do believe that a remnant of physical Jews will yet be saved as they see Christ return in His glory, as we see in Zechariah 12. But then they will believe, and for them, I guess it will count.

[MountainChristian]

That would make all of the list expect the Rainbow conditional. 

We see 3 times God removed them from the Land.

1. Joseph and later everyone lived in Egypt.

2. Babylon, when they filled the land with violence and false worship.

3. When they rejected Jesus.

Does this prove a condition or unconditional? If unconditional then why was they removed? If conditional, when did Israel accept Jesus?

Edited June 5, 2015 by MountainChristian
adding a thought

[Alan]

As when the nation of Israel went in to captivity and the covenant stopped it did not mean it ceased. The Covenants were everlasting.

When the nation of Israel returned to the land of Israel the covenants continued. Why? They are everlasting.

When the nation of Israel returns to the land after the 7-year Tribulation Period  ends, and the 1000 year Millenium starts, the Covenants will continue; Ezekiel 40-44. Why? They are everlasting.

This includes the Priesthood, the sacrifies, the Feast Days and the physical reign of David, as promised by a Covenant. The sacrifices are clearly not for the redemption of the soul. In fact, the sacrifices were never, even under the Law, for the redemption of the soul. Why? They are everlasting.

Until eternity begins, and as mankind counts time, the covenants are everlasting.

When  New Heavens and the New Earth beigns, and God is physically on the earth dwelling with men, and eternity begins, then my dear friends, time is no more. Glory Hallelujah!

 

[Alan]

Brethren,

May I bring out an item the Mountain Christian briefly touched upon that truly lets us know three things about the, "New Covenant, " that I want to shout everytime I  think about it.

MountainChristian wrote, "Jesus, Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, ⁶ Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

This New Covenant is just as reliable as the others. In fact, it is, "better," than the previous ones due to the one and effectual blood sacrifice of the Lord Jesus. Hebrews 7:22, "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." The other covenants were as long as, "the ordinances of heaven." They are temporarily set aside due to the spiritual blindness of the nation of Israel: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

Briefly, the, "better," Covenant is based on:

1. The Blood of the Lord Jesus was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven. Hebrews 9:12, "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." The blood of the Lord Jesus is still there and every redeemed saint of God will see it one day. Because of the shed, and then sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat in heaven we have an, "everlasting covenant." Just because we cannot see the blood now does not make the new covenant to cease.

2. The Life of Our Great High Priest is eternal: Hebrews 7:24, "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood" Because of the eternal life of Christ we have an, "everlasting covenant."

3. The New Covenant is a Jewish Covenant. The Gentiles, through grace, are grafted into the Nation of Israel. And, Hebrews 8:8, "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." See Jeremiah 31:31-34 The New Covenant is not a Gentile Covenant, nor is it a Church Covenant, it is a covenant made by a Jewish Man, the Man Christ Jesus, to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

I would highly suggest our, Covenant Theology and Replacement Theology friends  realize their doctrinal error and believe the scriptures as they are written and examine them more closely on, "who," they are written to, and "why," and, "how long," they are in force. Covenant and Replacement Theology are heretical doctrines and are repungant to a spiritual Christian. Paul said that those brethren who cannot see this mystery of the temporary spiritual blindness of Israel are: (1) ignorant, and, (2) conceited.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Alan
spelling addition

[DaveW]

Well, I just hope God doesn't consider the New Covenant the way some here say God considers the old everlasting covenants.

I hope - actually I know - that God won't take the promise of my salvation and give it to another.

 

[Covenanter]

Thanks for starting the topic, Mountain Christian. 

Discussion of this subject is included in the Daniel 9 debate thread. 

I believe any covenant made which was based upon the law of Sinai, everlasting or otherwise, is based also upon the keeping of both parties. The Sinai law was temporary, until Jesus came, thus, it was not everlasting in character. Often we see God demanding obedience on their part as part of His honoring His part. However, the covenant made with Abraham was made only BY God TO Abraham and HIs descendants, including the spiritual descendants, modern-day believers. This covenant was the covenant of promise, of faith, which was extended in Christ to all who believe. A physical descendant of Abraham is not necessarily included in it, (as we see with Ishmael and his descendants), unless today they follow in faith in Christ Jesus.

I do believe that a remnant of physical Jews will yet be saved as they see Christ return in His glory, as we see in Zechariah 12. But then they will believe, and for them, I guess it will count.

I agree with most of Mike's comments, but am not convinced of the final paragraph. (I inserted the CR to make it a separate paragraph.) It's not a point anyone, Jew or Gentile should rely on. We may die before Jesus returns, (as 60 generations have died since Calvary) so for all of us NOW is the day of salvation. 

Our Bibles are divided into two "Testaments" or "Covenants." For the purposes of this discussion the two words being synonyms. There are in fact no "testaments" by that name in the Old Testament. Compare Exo. 24:8 with Heb. 9:20

It is helpful to compare covenants in the OT & NT. Not all covenants are referred to by that name, e.g. Acts 3:25

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Every such promise of God is a covenant promise and cannot be broken by God. 

An important, wonderful covenant is given in Exodus 19 - 

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

This is confirmed to believers in Jesus in 1 Peter 2 - 

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Notice the absence of the "if" in Peter's Epistle. The children of Israel had to keep the Law to enjoy the blessings of the covenant, which was ratified by blood a few days later as recorded in Exo. 24. God accepted the willing but imperfect obedience of Israel under the OC & provided animal sacrifices for their sins. OC believers lived in a covenant relationship with God. The OC provided a framework for Jesus to live under, in perfect obedience to the OC Law, as the Son of man, for man. He became a sinless, perfect sacrifice, a Lamb without blemish, when he died at Calvary for our sins. The NC is his blood is indeed a perfect, everlasting covenant by which all who repent & believe in him are saved for eternity. 

In Dan. 9, we see God being faithful to his covenant by judging Judah for departing from the Law, Dan. 9:4-5 , and Messiah confirming the covenant in the 70th week by his ministry & saving work proclaimed by the Apostolic Gospel. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

​

[Covenanter]

Well, I just hope God doesn't consider the New Covenant the way some here say God considers the old everlasting covenants.

I hope - actually I know - that God won't take the promise of my salvation and give it to another.

 

​God underwrote the old everlasting covenants by giving his Son as covenant surety - his people are secure in Christ, who will never leave nor forsake them. The wonderful relationship spoken of throughout the OT is realised to perfection in Jesus, for all eternity.

Lev. 26:9-12  Jer. 11:4  Jer. 31:33  Eze. 36:28  2 Cor. 6:16  Heb. 8:10  Rev. 21:3  

[No Nicolaitans]

I do believe that a remnant of physical Jews will yet be saved as they see Christ return in His glory, as we see in Zechariah 12. But then they will believe, and for them, I guess it will count.

​

    I agree with most of Mike's comments, but am not convinced of the final paragraph.

As I see it, the Jews who are saved when Christ returns are unbelievers prior to his return. When they see him, they will believe.

Remember..."the Jews require a sign" (1 Corinthians 1:22). What greater sign is there than the glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ. They will see him and believe.

​

[MountainChristian]

If the old covenants passed away to make way for the new why do we see the ark of the covenant in Heaven in Revelation? Is anything in Heaven dead or passed away?

If Jesus couldn't keep the old covenants everlasting then Jesus can't keep the new covenant everlasting. The old everlasting covenants was made to the Jews and the new everlasting covenant was made to the Jews. Jesus permitted us to join the Jews in this covenant, so we are part of the old covenants too? Isn't it in our interest to see these old covenants fulfilled for our brothers the Jewish-Christians?

How could any christian not want to see Jesus set on a throne in Israel? To see Jesus rule with a rod of iron? To see the lamb lay down with the lion? 

How can Jesus promise an everlasting possession, the land of Canaan, when He knew all the elements was going to melt away with fervent heat? There Is going to be a New Earth and the old one is going to pass away, right?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Ken,

At the present time I am considering the development of a posting that would speak to the matter of God's covenants in general and that would speak to matter of the land elements within some of the covenants in specific.  However, after this posting is fully developed and formulated, it is likely to be a fairly lengthy post.  I recognize that some individuals find lengthy postings to be quite bothersome.  Therefore, since you are the originator for this thread, I am asking for your permission (if you are willing to grant it) to present this posting after it has been formulated.  Please understand that if you choose not to grant this permission, I will take no offense whatsoever at your decision.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[MountainChristian]

Pastor Scott,

I will be very pleased if you post here.

In Romans 11, Paul says "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Paul knew all about the cross and resurrection but he is still looking for a Sion Deliverer. Paul said it had not happened yet but it shall happen.  

Ken

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Pastor Scott,

I will be very pleased if you post here.

​Brother Ken,

I thank you for your permission.  However, I now have another problem for which I am pondering a solution.  Last night I completed the development of my proposed posting, and it came out to be 14 pages long.  That seems to be excessively long, even for a loooong posting.  Yet I believe that all of the information therein is of definite significance.  I am presently pondering how I might post it as installments.  I am quite comfortable posting the introductory portion as a first installment, and I shall do so in a moment.  For the rest I continue to ponder.

Any helpful thought by anyone would be appreciated.

[Covenanter]

Pastor Scott,

I will be very pleased if you post here.

In Romans 11, Paul says "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Paul knew all about the cross and resurrection but he is still looking for a Sion Deliverer. Paul said it had not happened yet but it shall happen.  

Ken

​Rom. 11:23-27 In vs 26-27 Paul is quoting Isaiah who, over 700 years before, wrote in the future tense concerning the Redeemer & the covenant. Paul uses the same future tense because he is quoting, but of course the Redeemer has come, did come, as prophesied. 

The Jews may still be looking for a Sion Deliverer, but, as Paul teaches in Rom. 11:23 they can find him when they come to Jesus in faith. Jesus taught his disciples on the Emmaus road in response to their spoken regret: "we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel:"
Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.