Old-Pilgrim

For what it's worth, although I hate to think about Benny Hinn and Todd Bently and the froth and poison they stir up, I don't see anywhere in scripture or in my experience that "that which is perfect has come", for that is when those spiritual gifts "shall be done away", the phrase in 1Cor 13:10 "that which is perfect has come" is key and is also used in a similar context in Eph 4:13 in the phrase "unto A PERFECT man" so as I see it the gifts will pass away when the WHOLE church is COMPLETELY mature in a way which it never has been, and then I guess we will also see Him face to face. Wretched although you seem to have a well sown up case "Only God chose Prophets and Apostles but according to the NT, men now choose pastors and deacons. If God still called men as He previously did, those passages would not be included in the Epistles ", The electing of deacons and elders and bishops does not exclude God calling men to ministry. I think it is easy to prove a point or a whole theological system and claim it to be 'bible doctrine', but when we know fully we shall be fully known, and it will be all over as it were, and heaven will have begun, I believe we are being led into all truth, we don't have all truth, we have scripture which is all true, but until we can reconcile all scripture honestly without leaving some parts out or twisting some, then we aren't perfect.

Well It does sound like Rome, and I know it has been taken as Rome by friend and foe in one shape or another, but politics aside, both 'heads' and a 'beast' sound like living things and one would wonder why a hill of soil or rock would be represented as a living creature, and I wonder if there might be a bit more to the beast than simply a literal mass of land, if Rome was the beast, then it was one of its heads which was wounded, but there was only one Pope over Rome, perhaps the heads are seven power structures of which Rome was one. We also have in Revelation the Mystery Babylon, and in History we Have the Mystery Religion, So the seven mountains of Rome might represent seven different occult entities all similar in nature and intent, but each with some degree on self governance. Such as Kabalism, Gnosticism, Illuminate in more modern times, But there might be seven spirits leading seven heads in an effort to supplant the seven spirits of God.Re 3:1

Hi Ronda, this is not my favorite topic, but on the symbolism, I think there is cases of double symbols, or symbols being explained in symbol, I can think of one case off hand from Revelation, Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. So we have the City and the Bride, both symbols of the same thing which presumably must be the Church, or am I wrong? I think the gulf between the heavens and earth are so vast that symbols are needed to convey some glimpse of the heavens and the spiritual realm to us.

I copy a post before sending it.

Hello Wretched, you are right that I know little of trends in America, I listen to a few American preachers, so I hear reference to churches with bands and special effects, just like in a dance, I have saw some clips on YouTube with women dancing sensually in front of the church, and some poor black brother in unbelief trying to point out the error, and I know little of the emergent church stuff, I have a Sister In Law who goes to a strange church, very little emphasis or even reference to the Scripture or doctrine (if any) and they don't evangelist or witness, they do a 'treasure hunt', they stand in the street and do a huddle until someone 'sees' an object in their mind, such as a red jumper or a pair of blue trousers, then they look for the object, and the unfortunate person who happens to be wearing it is approached with whatever their version of the gospel is, My wife came off the phone to her once all exited with all the new tactics of evangelism, I somewhat flew off the handle, It seemed to me to be some spirit that came with it, due to the excitement over strange practices that was generated, there is weird stuff going on in one or two of the churches round here too. The preachers I listen to (D.A.Waite, Johnathan Modene, Ralph Arnold, David Cloud) all stress the importance of going to a local fellowship, but they also emphasize the importance of correct teaching, and I don't see the point of sitting listening to un-Biblical teaching, unless it is simply for fellowship and the fellowship is a mission field, but I am not mature enough to do that. As far as Ralph Arnold goes, he does do a sinners prayer as such, but I think that is more of an evangelistic tactic, it might be wrong, but I would still treat it different from the gospel and the teaching in general. I can't say I have come across any scriptures which support a sinners prayer, but many churches which don't have an appeal are Calvinistic, and don't have an appeal because in their mind there would be no point, since God is going to do it all. A heathen could attend some churches for a very long time before realizing that one must be born again. When I got saved, I believed I was eternally secure, before ever going to church or hearing a preacher, I was saved by reading the Bible, when I went to church, it was because of a street effort i stumbled across, I used to go up the front every meeting, I might have wondered off into the wilderness had it not been for the fact that many of the Christians were outgoing and encouraged me to fellowship, Modene puts it well, something like 'you are not saved by praying a prayer, you are saved by believing'. I would use the Scripture from Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.' I think as long as the Christian is willing to be led into all truth, then into all truth shall he be led. Amen.

Wretched, I think you are over generalizing (at least for me to follow) I'll try responding to some of your points, (Ralph divides the word finely, he teaches more about the straight gate and less about the narrow path, but he does cover both, and hell and conviction), the Bible teaches that eternal life is a free gift freely given to those who believe & receive Christ as saviour, some people call it 'easy believism' because there are no works needed, serving Christ as a Christian is out of Love and Thankfulness, 'freely you have received, freely give'. Works added with wrong motives can be detrimental to the work of Christ. Galatians 3:3-5 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ….He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? >>>People continue to confuse lordship salvation with evidence of the new birth and they are not the same thing. The Bible clearly demonstrates that conversions create new creatures who will want to grow and learn and follow the Lord. Some faster than others but all will be interested in God. .<<< 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. This is a statement of fact, and is past tense just as we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places. Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: >>>This idea that folks can be saved by mental acknowledgement of the Gospel, forget all about it and head back down to the whorehouse with no conviction is not of God and there is ZERO example of this in Scripture<<< Here is one example: 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. There is also the christians who were being struck down due to the way in which they conducted themselves. 1Cor 11. >>>Read all of I John as your personal proof to self whether you are truly in the faith or not. The book was written so that we will know that we are saved and the verse Old P quoted is at the end of the Epistle and explains that, "These things have I written so that you will know.... It seems you took it out of context as written and inserted it into your own context. Its true context is everything God gave John to write preceding it.<<< I think the whole Gospel of John is written to ‘whosoever’ that they might believe and have eternal life. John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. And The Whole letter of 1John is written to Christians that they might have assurance. 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. John is how to be saved, 1John is how to have fellowship and not end up as 1Cor. That is as I see it, I don’t claim to understand or even remember every verse in any letter. I'm not sure what kind of hard walk you are advocating, Do you go along with the sort of Gospel which Paul Washer or John MacArthur preach?

I believe we are saved by faith in Christ, but assurance is a different thing, assurance can be lost, Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Hello Wretched, Have you ever listened to Ralph Arnold Yankee? do you think he is teaching "easy believism"?

Yes I agree, I was just pointing out some of the crafty and flawed arguments that some use. On the other hand in the book of job there were some lengthy arguments presented by Jobs friends which seemed to be somewhat rebuked, and some of Jobs were as well as far as I see, so it might be a case of scripture there in order for us to learn indirectly from, but in the case of Acts 1, like you say there was no statement nor indication that they had made a mistake.

Yes, I Don't doubt for a second that they traveled far and wide. I had someone say to me once that Matthias was elected by mistake, and therefore church members were not alowed to vote on anything, the 'mistake' was evident because Matthias was never 'heard of again', but of course most of the Apostles were never heard of again, or at least they were never mentioned again.

what is the DVD? is it online? .

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Hello NN Is this a question? what aren't we to change our mind about? Not sure what your point is, but i think That Jesus at times was expounding the Law, and at times he was preaching Grace, I think John the Baptist when he hunted some Jews and told them to bring forth fruit worthy of repentence he was kind of telling them, 'if you don't eat you dinner you cannot have any desert', or in that the Law was our school master to lead us to Christ' John was saying, 'go back to School', that par adventure God might grant you sight to see. And I think that Peter and James in that they were apostles to the Jews sort of draw Israel through the teachings of the Law, Gentiles didn't have the Law, so might not be aware of their guilt, so they might be quicker to believe that God can give them a free gift of life. Jews might think they deserve eternal life, Often those with no law know they are lost in the courtroom of a Holy God. I Don't think that The Apostles agreed that they were teaching the same thing as Paul, but that they had both been given the same holy Spirit, and that there was one Gospel to the Jews and also to the Gentiles. On the Mark 16 verse on Baptism, when we believe we are baptised into the Spirit of Christ, this verse is probably not talking about the shadow of water baptism, but rather of the reality of being buried into Christ in the Spirit.

Uk' very well put.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Isn't this verse talking about Jewish days, and in context it means that we don't need to keep them? Aren't we supposed to tear down strongholds which exalt themselves above the knowledge of God? Have any of you seen Zeitgeist the Movie? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist_(film_series) It was used to launch a movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zeitgeist_Movement Like the Dan Brown books it is a movement which uses movies as propaganda, They use the fact that Christmas is a pagan date in order to promote their view that Christianity is actually a branch of the Mystery Religion, I can't recall all the details but they point out all the pagan symbols used in Christianity in order to draw the lost into their agenda which is some sort of New Age Communist thing. My point being that if the church drops Easter and Christmas then they will be making a clearer sound.