Here's A Question

[2Tim215]

Here's a question that should pose some interesting debate:D It's got me confused.

 

Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Pentacost - filled with the spirit

 

Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

 

Speaking in foreign tounges.

 

Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

 

Act 2:12  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

 

Amazed

 

But this is where it gets interesting:

 

Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 

Peter uses the prophecy of Joel to explain that what they are seeing is this prophecy being fullfilled. If I stand by what I believe, that the Bible is the inspired word of God, is without error and that these spirit filled men knew what they were talking about why are they speaking about "last days", "day of the lord" and all the rest?

 

The rest is about Jesus, repentance and salvation. So how could Peter be speaking about signs and wonders and last days to explain a current event? And if we are to trust the bible - then how many last days are there? Because if there is only one, then that prophecy and what Peter says here means that from the moment this happened to our current time is the last days and then all I have been taught by the IFB church is wrong coz then everything in those verses is still applicable to THIS day - prophecy, tounges, visions and dreams - IE miracles, signs and wonders.

 

I don't need the usual arguments here. I have studied long enough and hard enough to be able to rightly divide on my own - but this one has stumped me. I am sure there is a logical explanation, just haven't figured it out yet.

[Invicta]

1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The following is the opening lines of The NOBle Lesson of the Waldenses written about AD1160

"O Brethren, give ear to a nOBle lesson.

We ought always to watch and pray,
For we see the world nigh to a conclusion.
We ought to strive to do good works,
Seeing that the end of this world approacheth.
There are already a thousand and one hundred years fully accomplished,
Since it was written thus, for we are in the last time.
We ought to covet little, for we are at what remains, viz. at the later end. 

 

[Covenanter]

In a sense, the last days run from Pentecost to the second coming. That does not conflict with or contradict with "end times" teaching. There will be "last days"& "end times" before Jesus returns, but the same Gospel.

 

God's last word to mankind was spoken by Jesus, God's Son;

Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

That is the Gospel proclaimed at Pentecost, & continues to be proclaimed until Jesus returns.

The Old Testament records God's dealings with man from creation to 400 years before the birth of Jesus. (Genesis - Malachi) God was speaking to man, & to the people of Israel, through prophets. Then the New Testament tells the story of Jesus Christ, the long promised Messiah. Hebrews contrasts the word of God by his prophets with the word of his Son Jesus. Notice these last days. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is God's last word to mankind. Not future “last days” or “end times” but the present Gospel days.

 

 

 

 

[2Tim215]

So my understanding of it would be correct if I said that that prophecy of Joel's still stands today in our current time?

[No Nicolaitans]

It only says that they would prophesy, have visions, and dream dreams...it doesn't say how long those things would last, but that would be one of the indicators of the last days according to Joel's prophecy.

 

Again...the prophecy doesn't say that those things will last throughout the last days...they were indicators that they were in the last days.

 

The signs in heaven above and earth beneath certainly haven't happened yet (blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke, the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood), but the prophecy makes a clear distinction that those wonders and signs would only happen before the coming of the "notable day of the Lord".

Edited October 25, 2014 by No Nicolaitans

[John81]

For several years now missionaries to Muslim countries have reported upon many instances of Muslims having dreams of Jesus. Oftentimes Muslims will dream they are to contact a missionary and ask them what important message they have for them from Jesus. The testimony of many Muslim converts to Christianity begin with such a dream.

[wretched]

For several years now missionaries to Muslim countries have reported upon many instances of Muslims having dreams of Jesus. Oftentimes Muslims will dream they are to contact a missionary and ask them what important message they have for them from Jesus. The testimony of many Muslim converts to Christianity begin with such a dream.

 

Anything that is on ones mind and in one's consciousness can create dreams in regards to it. These are not miracles or signs.

 

No hard feelings brother John but for many years before that charismatic women have dreams and visions of all kinds of things related to the Lord but none are factual.

 

When you have a dream like this, report it honestly and maybe you can then believe it. Like I have said before, if you think some get extra help from God to get saved then you are simply a calvinist and are afraid to admit it. There is no extra help above the Word and the Spirit together, this is that which is perfect that has come and all the signs are gone.

 

If they will not believe the Word which is backed by the Spirit, they will not believe dreams or visions or if one has come back from the dead.

[Miss Daisy]

For several years now missionaries to Muslim countries have reported upon many instances of Muslims having dreams of Jesus. Oftentimes Muslims will dream they are to contact a missionary and ask them what important message they have for them from Jesus. The testimony of many Muslim converts to Christianity begin with such a dream.

 

I have read about this also. 

[2Tim215]

It only says that they would prophesy, have visions, and dream dreams...it doesn't say how long those things would last, but that would be one of the indicators of the last days according to Joel's prophecy.

 

Again...the prophecy doesn't say that those things will last throughout the last days...they were indicators that they were in the last days.

 

The signs in heaven above and earth beneath certainly haven't happened yet (blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke, the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood), but the prophecy makes a clear distinction that those wonders and signs would only happen before the coming of the "notable day of the Lord".

No it doesen't - Peter (Acts 2:14-21) makes it very clear that the prophecy of Joel was the explanation of what they were currently seeing at pentacost. So where is the "clear" distinction that these would only happen "before the notable day of the lord" if they happened at pentacost and the notable day of the lord hasen't come yet? For almost 2000 yrs now?

It's is logical that those mentioned in vrs 19&20 have not come about but I am talking about vrs 17&18 - there is no clear distinction that these have ended nor come to an end. It simply states that this is what would happen in the last days, of which we are still living in. Or are we? How many last days can there be?

Why do we teach that prophecy etc has come to an end? Or did the apostles not know what they were talking about here and litterally thought they were living in the last days and that the day of the lord would come about in there life time?

[Covenanter]

[John81]

Anything that is on ones mind and in one's consciousness can create dreams in regards to it. These are not miracles or signs.

 

No hard feelings brother John but for many years before that charismatic women have dreams and visions of all kinds of things related to the Lord but none are factual.

 

When you have a dream like this, report it honestly and maybe you can then believe it. Like I have said before, if you think some get extra help from God to get saved then you are simply a calvinist and are afraid to admit it. There is no extra help above the Word and the Spirit together, this is that which is perfect that has come and all the signs are gone.

 

If they will not believe the Word which is backed by the Spirit, they will not believe dreams or visions or if one has come back from the dead.

We all who have come to Christ received "extra help". We were not saved by that help, but by the one and same Gospel.

 

One of the works the Holy Ghost engages in is drawing the lost to Christ. He does this using various means and methods. A person isn't saved by the "miracle" of a dream that leads them to learn of Christ nor is one saved by the "miracle" of the Holy Ghost bringing that particular person into ones life who shares the Gospel with them, or gets them to church, or shares a Bible, Christian book or tract.

 

Whether one chooses to call any of these things miracles or not it doesn't negate the fact the Holy Ghost is at work using that which He knows will best reach individuals to draw them to Christ.

 

The fact is, God is at work in, through and among our lives each and every day whether we take note of it, whether we acknowledge it.

[No Nicolaitans]

No it doesen't - Peter (Acts 2:14-21) makes it very clear that the prophecy of Joel was the explanation of what they were currently seeing at pentacost. So where is the "clear" distinction that these would only happen "before the notable day of the lord" if they happened at pentacost and the notable day of the lord hasen't come yet? For almost 2000 yrs now?

It's is logical that those mentioned in vrs 19&20 have not come about but I am talking about vrs 17&18 - there is no clear distinction that these have ended nor come to an end. It simply states that this is what would happen in the last days, of which we are still living in. Or are we? How many last days can there be?

Why do we teach that prophecy etc has come to an end? Or did the apostles not know what they were talking about here and litterally thought they were living in the last days and that the day of the lord would come about in there life time?

 

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well...I was in a hurry when I typed what I did. The clear distinction of what would signify the last days (prophecy, dreams, visions) and the culmination of the last days (the notable day of the Lord) are the wonders in heaven above and signs in earth beneath. Neither of which happened at Pentecost...or afterward...nor yet today. Yet they are included in the same prophecy.

 

Therefore, the notable day of the Lord is the final culmination of the last days. I understood that you were referring to verses 17 and 18, but those aren't the only verses of the prophecy. Since verses 19 and 20 haven't happened yet though they're included in the prophecy, then why do verses 17 and 18 have to be a never-ending part of the prophecy? Verses 19 and 20 have a time restraint, so I don't see why the prophecies, dreams, and visions don't have a time restraint too.

The prophecies, dreams, and visions showed them that they were in the last days. There is nothing in the prophecy denoting that prophecy, dreams, and visions would continue through to the end of the last days...only that they were a sign of the last days. The outpouring of the Spirit (shown by prophecy, dreams, and visions) signaled the beginning of the last days. The notable day of the Lord will signal the end of the last days.

...and yes, we are still in the last days.

 

 

 

[2Tim215]

Thanks all. Appreciate the input. Coventer's explanation was more to what I had in the back of my mind. There were many signs and wonders during the period of the crusifiction and ressurection. One has to back scripture with scripture and the one that comes to mind here is:

1Co 1:22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

[KnocKnock]

Here's a question that should pose some interesting debate:D It's got me confused.

... So how could Peter be speaking about signs and wonders and last days to explain a current event? And if we are to trust the bible - then how many last days are there? Because if there is only one, then that prophecy and what Peter says here means that from the moment this happened to our current time is the last days and then all I have been taught by the IFB church is wrong coz then everything in those verses is still applicable to THIS day - prophecy, tounges, visions and dreams - IE miracles, signs and wonders.

I don't need the usual arguments here. I have studied long enough and hard enough to be able to rightly divide on my own - but this one has stumped me. I am sure there is a logical explanation, just haven't figured it out yet.

​There is the Scriptural answer, which was not yet been given in this thread.  Would you like to consider it prayerfully with me from the Bible?

If you so desire it, let me know, and the texts shall be shared.

A short summation [texts to be included in the post which is to follow if desired]:

Peter, and all at Pentecost, indeed had already entered into "the last days" [plural].  There is also "the last day" [singular], being the final "day", even "the day of the LORD" [more on this in the following post, if desired].  The "last days" [plural] were from that time [days of Christ Jesus on earth] onward, even unto now [present], and yet still further a little while longer until their ending [soon].  That which was poured out at Pentecost, began from Heaven and the anointing of Jesus as the Great High Priest to begin His work there, which went from the Head in Heaven down to the Body on earth, even specifically Jerusalem, Mt. Zion.  The gifts were to continue in the Church until the last.  Though with this said, there shall be further outpourings [latter rains, in 'seasons'], even in greater scope than at the first [early rains, Pentecost and 'seasons' thereafter].  The purpose of that, is so that the final generation, and Great Harvest will be brought to full maturity, that it may be reaped, not only for the righteous, but so also for the wicked.

[Invicta]

The latter rain teaching is an imposed on scripture by the Pentecostal/charismatic fraternity.  James is describing that we should be patient for the coming of the Lord as the farmer waits patiently for the latter rain.