Sabbath Worship?

[rstrats]

DaveW,
re:  "Fact: the ONLY day that is specifically mentioned as having a church service OF ANY SORT, is the first day. That DOESN'T mean that a church service HAS to be on the first day. In fact there are references to churches meeting daily, so apparently ANY DAY is OK to have a church service."

And that is all I'm trying to point out; that as far as scripture is concerned, there is nothing special about the 1st day of the week. I think there may be some who think that scripture says that there is.  

 re:  "...FACT: Nowhere is it commanded to have a church service on the Sabbath day."

Again, I was merely pointing out that scripture is silent with regard to a repeal of the 4th commandment (3rd if you're RC).  
 

Edited January 22, 2019 by rstrats

[Alan]

9 hours ago, rstrats said:

Fact:   No where does scripture say that anyone met on the 1st day of the week for rest and worship, much less that they did it on a recurring basis.  

Fact:  No where does scripture ever say that the Sabbath commandment was rescinded.  

Seems as far as scripture in concerned that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo didn't remain in place. 
 

I beg to differ.

First, you are trying to make your own facts, using your own reasoning, to make a forced interpretation. You are judging us by your own two "facts." Whether or not there is a scripture verse, as you say, "rescinding" worshipping on the Sabbath day is immaterial to the saints in the New Testament church.

Also, It seems to me that you are making it an issue, and judging us, to require the New Testament saint to worship on the Jewish Sabbath: Saturday, the sixth day. And, to state that the "status quo" is still in place. To me, this is a forced interpretation, an error, not binding on any saint, and is against the words of Paul the Apostle in Colossians 2:16

Did not Paul plainly state, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." Colossians 2:16

Like the Seventh Day Adventists, it seems to me that you are forcing your own interpretations on the Sabbath issue and judging those who do not worship on the Sabbath.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

10 hours ago, rstrats said:

Seems as far as scripture in concerned that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo didn't remain in place. 

1 hour ago, rstrats said:

Again, I was merely pointing out that scripture is silent with regard to a repeal of the 4th commandment (3rd if you're RC).  

As Alan pointed out just above, this is incorrect.  Colossians 2:16-17 states, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moons, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."  This New Testament passage speaks concerning a series of subjects that existed under the Old Testament Law --

1.  Meat requirements.
2.  Drink requirements.
3.  Holyday requirements.
4.  New moon (sacrifice) requirements.
5.  Sabbath day requirements.

This passage teaches us the following about these subjects that existed under the Old Testament Law --

1.  No New Testament believer is to be judged in relation to these matters.  (Thus they are NOT a New Testament requirement.)
2.  These Old Testament matters were only a SHADOW of things to come in the New Testament.  (Thus they were to be replaced by the New Testament reality.)
3.  The body of Christ (the church) has now come as the New Testament reality.  (Thus the New Testament church, having come, has now replaced the Old Testament shadow.)

________________________________________________________

Concerning the first day of the week, Sunday --

1.  Our Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected on the first day of the week, Sunday, making it the day to represent the new life of the new covenant and of the New Testament church.
2.  The first day of the week, Sunday, was the day directly chosen by the God the Father & God the Son upon which to send forth the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and thereby to empower the New Testament church. (For the Day of Pentecost is and always has been on a Sunday.)
3.  Acts 20:7 specifically mentions the first day of the week, Sunday, as the day "when the disciples [New Testament believers] came together to break bread [most likely a reference to the celebration of the Lord's Supper]."
4.  In 1 Corinthians 16:2 the apostle Paul specifically instructed the New Testament church at Corinth to collect their financial offering "upon the first day of the week."
5.  Remember that the New Testament church is built upon the foundation of the New Testament apostles and prophets, "Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone," not upon the Old Testament law and prophets.

[Jordan Kurecki]

Col 2:16 clearly refutes the idea of NT believers being obligated to keep the Sabbath. 

 

 

 

[rstrats]

Alan,
re:  "I beg to differ."

That of course is your prerogative.     I maintain my position, though. As I stated previously, there are only 2 times where scripture mentions anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week. And neither time is anything said about the purpose being for rest and worship.  

 

 

re:  "First, you are trying to make your own facts..."

They are not my facts.   They are the facts of scripture. See above. 

 

 

re:  "Whether or not there is a scripture verse, as you say, "rescinding" worshipping on the Sabbath day [and there isn't] is immaterial to the saints in the New Testament church."

Maybe, maybe not.   Look, I'm not saying that the moving of rest and worship from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week isn't a divinely approved change.  I'm only saying that there is nothing in scripture directing such a change. 

 

 

re:  "Also, It seems to me that you are making it an issue, and judging us, to require the New Testament saint to worship on the Jewish Sabbath: Saturday, the sixth day."

Actually, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.  And I'm not judging or requiring anything from anyone.  I'm merely pointing out what scripture does and doesn't say.     

 

 

re:  "And, to state that the 'status quo' is still in place.

I didn't say that.  I said that based on scripture it seems that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo has changed. 

 

 

re:  "To me , this is a forced interpretation, an error, not binding on any saint, and is against the words of Paul the Apostle in Colossians 2:16." 

It appears you are interpreting Paul to fit with your preconceived position with regard to the Sabbath.   

 

 

re:  "Did not Paul plainly state, 'Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.' Colossians 2:16"

 With regard to what with respect of the sabbath days?  

 

[John Young]

1 hour ago, rstrats said:

...I maintain my position, though. As I stated previously, there are only 2 times where scripture mentions anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week. And neither time is anything said about the purpose being for rest and worship....Gathering on Sunday is not about "rest and worship" but rater primarily to fellowship and conduct the business of the church and the Great Commission teaching. Biblicly the only church service Jesus attended after his resurrection was the Sunday evening services...

...Look, I'm not saying that the moving of rest and worship from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week isn't a divinely approved change.  I'm only saying that there is nothing in scripture directing such a change....

...Actually, the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.  And I'm not judging or requiring anything from anyone.  I'm merely pointing out what scripture does and doesn't say....

...I said that based on scripture it seems that there is no scriptural reason for thinking that the status quo has changed....

No one changed anything. Granted many have bad theology on this but biblically "Sabbath" is still the seventh day and "The Lord's Day" is still the first day of the week. Sabbath also is for those in the Israelite Covenant and was never mandated for the Gentiles.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 6:43 AM, rstrats said:

As I stated previously, there are only 2 times where scripture mentions anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week.

1.  John 20:19 -- "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."

2.  Acts 2:1 -- "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."  (Note: According to a Biblical understanding of schedule, the day of Pentecost was ALWAYS on the first day of the week, Sunday.)  (2nd Note: This was the very day hand-picked by God the Father and God the Son Themselves to send forth the baptism and empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon the New Testament church, the body of Christ.  In my own estimation, this FACT is the most significant New Testament reason for the assembling of a church body on Sunday.)

3.  Acts 20:7 -- "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

4.  1 Corinthians 16:2 -- "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."
 

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 6:43 AM, rstrats said:

 And neither time is anything said about the purpose being for rest and worship.  

I am not aware of any New Testament passage which indicates that the primary purpose for the assembling together of a New Testament church is for the purposes of "rest and worship."  Rather, the New Testament seems to emphasize that the primary purpose for the assembling together of a New Testament church is for edification and worship.  Now, the Hebrew word "sabbath" means "rest" (not "seventh"); and the Hebrew Sabbath days were indeed for "REST and worship."   However, this is NOT the case for the New Testament church.  Indeed, those things were "a SHADOW of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (See Colossians 2:16-17)  The shadow is now past; the body is now present.  I myself have no desire to return unto the SHADOW of the Old Testament.  Rather, I myself desire to walk in the present reality of the New Testament BODY.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

The Purpose of the Old Testament Sabbath:

1.  A day of rest through spiritual worship with and for the Lord.

Exodus 20:9-10 -- "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates."

2.  One day in every seven to be hallowed unto the Lord.

Exodus 20:11 -- "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

3.  A sign between the Lord and the children of Israel concerning the Lord's sanctifying work upon them.

Exodus 31:13 -- "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you."

4.  A sign and seal of the perpetual covenant between the Lord and the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16-17 -- Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.  It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

_________________________________________________

However, as a New Testament believer I am not a member of the Old Testament/Covenant.  When our Lord Jesus Christ brought in the beginnings of the New Testament/Covenant, He did not intend simply to put a new patch upon the old. (See Matthew 9:16-17)  Rather, He intended to establish a new body. (See Ephesians 2:11-22)  This is the Biblical mystery concerning the New Testament church. (See Ephesians 3:1-12)  Even so, the SHADOW of things to come are now past; and the New Testament body of Christ is now present. (See Colossians 2:16-17)  For the children of Israel, the Sabbath day looks back to the creation, their deliverance from Egypt, and the sanctifying covenant of Sinai.  For the New Testament believer, gathering on Sunday looks back to the resurrection of Christ, the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and the establishment of the New Testament body of Christ.

[rstrats]

 

Pastor Scott Markle,
re:  "John 20:19..."
First time.

 

 

re:  "Acts 20:7..."
Second time. 

 

 

re:  "Acts 2:1..."
When I said that there were only 2 times mentioned with anyone getting together on the 1 st day of the week I was speaking with regard to weekly gatherings.

 

 

re:  "1 Corinthians 16:2..."
Nothing is said about anyone getting together on the 1st day of the week.  
 

[rstrats]

Pastor Scott Markle,
re:  "For the New Testament believer, gathering on Sunday looks back to the resurrection of Christ..."

 

Just so it's understood that scripture is silent with regard to anyone getting together in observance or celebration of the resurrection.  
 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, rstrats said:

re:  "Acts 2:1..."

When I said that there were only 2 times mentioned with anyone getting together on the 1 st day of the week I was speaking with regard to weekly gatherings.

????????????????

1.  Was the day of Pentecost on a Sunday, the first day of the week?
2.  Were the believers and disciples of Christ gathered "with one accord in one place" on that day?
3.  Did God the Father and God the Son Themselves hand-pick that day to send forth the baptism and empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon the body of Christ, the church?

[rstrats]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:03 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Pastor Scott Markle,
re:  "1.  Was the day of Pentecost on a Sunday, the first day of the week?"

Maybe, maybe not.  Depends on when the count starts. 

 

re:  "2.  Were the believers and disciples of Christ gathered 'with one accord in one place' on that day?"

Acts 2:1 says they were. 

 

re:  3.  Did God the Father and God the Son Themselves hand-pick that day to send forth the baptism and empowerment of the Holy Spirit upon the body of Christ, the church?" 

Scripture doesn't say.   Acts 2:1-4 only says that on the day of Pentecost they were filled with the Holy Spirit. 

 

But I don't see what that has to do with my comment in post #24.
 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by rstrats

[Jerry]

Pentecost was always on a Sunday. It was the 50th day after a particular sabbath (after the sabbath of Passover week) - 1 day (which makes it Sunday - the first day of the week) plus seven weeks (49 days).

[robycop3]

  Paul wrote, on authority from the Holy Spirit, that, especially for gentiles, the observation of Sabbaths, special feast days, etc. as well as the eating or non-eating of certain foods was a matter of individual conscience, and to not criticize one whose own conscience was different.  While I don't believe any man-made, non-Scriptural doctrines of faith/worship, I don't criticize others solely for worshipping on Saturdays. However, in the US, Saturday worship meetings are almost part of a cult, such as SDA. Several of those cults try to follow those parts of the "Mosaic" law that are fairly easy for them to obey, ignoring the rest, and God's statement that if one lives by "the law", one must live by every jot & tittle of it, which, of course, no one can do, & was done only by Jesus. In all that, those cults have made their own little storefront jesus, which is neither actual Lord or Savior, but is a man-made character like Santa Claus or Spider-Man.

[rstrats]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:03 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

????????????????

What is your question about with regard to weekly gatherings?