Billy Graham

[HappyChristian]

Just now, John Yurich said:

If Graham has preached the biblical doctrine of salvation in his Crusades then logically that means that he does not believe that stuff he stated in those articles.

That is then even more egregious. Because if he is preaching salvation and then lying about other things he supposedly believes, then logically folks who are lost will reject salvation because Graham is a liar about everything else he believes.

Your logic falls apart simply on the basis that we have no choice but to believe what a person says when they assert their belief in something. You do not know his mind, so you cannot definitively state that he doesn't believe what he says he believes. It is circular reasoning at best which has no logically sound outcome.

[John Yurich]

19 minutes ago, HappyChristian said:

That is then even more egregious. Because if he is preaching salvation and then lying about other things he supposedly believes, then logically folks who are lost will reject salvation because Graham is a liar about everything else he believes.

Your logic falls apart simply on the basis that we have no choice but to believe what a person says when they assert their belief in something. You do not know his mind, so you cannot definitively state that he doesn't believe what he says he believes. It is circular reasoning at best which has no logically sound outcome.

Well the fact is that millions have become saved over the years in the Billy Graham Crusades. When Graham made  those statements in  those articles he must have been suffering from some kind of mental problems to make statements that he would never have made during his Crusades. That is why I don't believe those articles about Graham.

[heartstrings]

1 John 4:1-5

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

² Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

³ And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

⁴ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

⁵ They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 

My mouth may profess "Jesus". I may even use a King James Bible, but what does my "spirit" really say? What do I really say between the lines while I promote Catholicism. "Universal salvation" and "New Age" stuff?  If anyone was saved, at a Billy Graham crusade, it was because they heard some of the Word of God. The Bible says "my word shall not return unto me void"(paraphrased). And God even used Balaam to a point. Billy Graham has done a lot of good things, some of which I admire greatly. So who am I to judge? But when we hear something that isn't doctrinal, we are to take notice and beware because there are wolves out there which look every bit like a sheep. It's easier if I put zero confidence in Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon or any other man, even my own pastor, even MYSELF.  We're all fallible. 

[wretched]

7 hours ago, heartstrings said:

1 John 4:1-5

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

² Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

³ And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

⁴ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

⁵ They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 

My mouth may profess "Jesus". I may even use a King James Bible, but what does my "spirit" really say? What do I really say between the lines while I promote Catholicism. "Universal salvation" and "New Age" stuff?  If anyone was saved, at a Billy Graham crusade, it was because they heard some of the Word of God. The Bible says "my word shall not return unto me void"(paraphrased). And God even used Balaam to a point. Billy Graham has done a lot of good things, some of which I admire greatly. So who am I to judge? But when we hear something that isn't doctrinal, we are to take notice and beware because there are wolves out there which look every bit like a sheep. It's easier if I put zero confidence in Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon or any other man, even my own pastor, even MYSELF.  We're all fallible. 

Well put sir

[HappyChristian]

9 hours ago, John Yurich said:

Well the fact is that millions have become saved over the years in the Billy Graham Crusades. When Graham made  those statements in  those articles he must have been suffering from some kind of mental problems to make statements that he would never have made during his Crusades. That is why I don't believe those articles about Graham.

Billy Graham, over the years, went his own way rather than sticking completely with scripture. He was warned by a number of men who saw the trail he was beginning to take. He chose to ignore the warnings of men like Dr. John R. Rice, Dr. Bob Jones I, Dr. Charles Woodbridge, etc (and I'm not lifting any of those men up - just naming a few names of well-known men who rebuked Graham early on).  As early as 1957 Graham had modernists (120 of them) on his crusade committee.

While there have been people saved via Graham's ministry, that does not excuse his disobedience - any more than some fruit in ministry excuses ANY sin on the part of ANYone. 

We can choose to believe or not believe whatever we want (although it is illogical to disbelieve that what someone claims to believe - and teaches it over the years - is what they actually believe). But the Bible tells us "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Graham's mouth spoke what was in his heart, and a good bit of it was heresy.

[John Yurich]

14 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

Billy Graham, over the years, went his own way rather than sticking completely with scripture. He was warned by a number of men who saw the trail he was beginning to take. He chose to ignore the warnings of men like Dr. John R. Rice, Dr. Bob Jones I, Dr. Charles Woodbridge, etc (and I'm not lifting any of those men up - just naming a few names of well-known men who rebuked Graham early on).  As early as 1957 Graham had modernists (120 of them) on his crusade committee.

While there have been people saved via Graham's ministry, that does not excuse his disobedience - any more than some fruit in ministry excuses ANY sin on the part of ANYone. 

We can choose to believe or not believe whatever we want (although it is illogical to disbelieve that what someone claims to believe - and teaches it over the years - is what they actually believe). But the Bible tells us "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Graham's mouth spoke what was in his heart, and a good bit of it was heresy.

Graham must have been suffering from some kind of mental disorder in order for him to make those statements that he did not make during his Crusades. That is the only logical explanation as to why he made those statements when he preached the biblical doctrine of salvation.

[DaveW]

4 hours ago, John Yurich said:

Graham must have been suffering from some kind of mental disorder in order for him to make those statements that he did not make during his Crusades. That is the only logical explanation as to why he made those statements when he preached the biblical doctrine of salvation.

So you would rather have him being mentally unstable?

That doesn't make his preaching any more reliable.

How can we tell when he was in his right mind?

The plsin fact is that in many different fora over a period of years he made statements such as those recorded above, statements that are cleatly inconsistent with biblical salvation.

Unless you can provide proof of this mental instability that you suggest, we are forced to accept that his belief was unbiblical.

Do you have any sources that question his mental faculty over the years in support of your assertion?

By the way, the fact of people saved under his preaching is not disputed, but they would not be the only people saved in spite of, not because of, what a preacher actually believed.

[swathdiver]

On 4/24/2017 at 0:50 PM, John Yurich said:

Totally false. Graham has never preached a false gospel as he has always preached in his Crusades the biblical doctrine of salvation that salvation comes only through giving ones life to Christ and trusting in Him alone for salvation.

You have a lot to learn about Mr. Graham sir.  Even in the 1930s we have quotes from him preaching an accursed gospel.

Having dinner with Graham, President G. W. Bush asked him a question about Christianity and he said some people were born Christians.

His fruit is rotten.  Franklin is worse, not better.

Franklin was dumb enough to foot the bill for a hospital in North Korea, complete with all the latest medical technology and backup generators.  Anyone with an ounce of brains knows that this will only be used for Party Members and for propaganda purposes, such as when they hit Graham up for more money or when Michael Moore comes to town for a documentary on national healthcare.  

 

[HappyChristian]

11 hours ago, John Yurich said:

Graham must have been suffering from some kind of mental disorder in order for him to make those statements that he did not make during his Crusades. That is the only logical explanation as to why he made those statements when he preached the biblical doctrine of salvation.

What he was "suffering from" is sin. Period. There are many people who teach/preach salvation and yet have bad doctrine in other areas. Sin. Not a mental disorder.

[Ronda]

There are 2 things that bother me most about Billy Graham's crusades of the past.
#1. He made an AGREEMENT with the Catholic church to turn over to them (give them their names) any catholic person who came forward during his style of altar call at any of his crusades. He was so well liked by the priests that they gave him an honorary degree (Belmont Abbey College - 1967). Now if a certain person does not WANT to believe this, look up the factual evidence of it.

#2. And this (to me) is MORE troublesome, because I heard this same rhetoric in many Baptist churches over the years... HIS version of "salvation" was "ask Jesus into your heart". Is that the gospel? No. The ACTUAL gospel is found in 1 Cor.15:1-4. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS!!! (underline and bold emphasis placed there by me)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

What is required of us? BELIEF/faith. (John 3:16-18, Rom.10:9-10, Eph.2:8-9, John 14:6,  et al). What do we BELIEVE??? The gospel!!! That Christ died for our sins, was  buried, was resurrected 3 days later.
We BELIEVE in our hearts, we CONFESS with our mouths, but no-where does the gospel state "ask Jesus into your heart"... that is NOT scriptural. That IS another gospel.  That is 'easy-believism' with the person often times having never even heard the actual GOSPEL, nor comprehending that Jesus died for their sins (and was buried and resurrected).!

Paul continues on in that chapter (1 Cor.15) to expound on GRACE, he also expounds on the resurrection that WE (as believers) will also have at the rapture, with a description of the rapture in that chapter as well.

Any "gospel" that does NOT present the death (that Jesus died for our sins), the burial, and the resurrection is a FALSE GOSPEL. Paul warns us that there are some who would "pervert the gospel of Christ". (Gal.1:7) He further gives more warning in verses 8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I don't care whom the pastor is... Billy Graham or any other... whomever is preaching any gospel in the age of grace OTHER than the gospel as set forth in 1 Cor.15:1-4, it is a FALSE GOSPEL. 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Ronda

[Invicta]

20 hours ago, Ronda said:

There are 2 things that bother me most about Billy Graham's crusades of the past.
#1. He made an AGREEMENT with the Catholic church to turn over to them (give them their names) any catholic person who came forward during his style of altar call at any of his crusades. He was so well liked by the priests that they gave him an honorary degree (Belmont Abbey College - 1967). Now if a certain person does not WANT to believe this, look up the factual evidence of it.

#2. And this (to me) is MORE troublesome, because I heard this same rhetoric in many Baptist churches over the years... HIS version of "salvation" was "ask Jesus into your heart". Is that the gospel? No. The ACTUAL gospel is found in 1 Cor.15:1-4. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS!!! (underline and bold emphasis placed there by me)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

What is required of us? BELIEF/faith. (John 3:16-18, Rom.10:9-10, Eph.2:8-9, John 14:6,  et al). What do we BELIEVE??? The gospel!!! That Christ died for our sins, was  buried, was resurrected 3 days later.
We BELIEVE in our hearts, we CONFESS with our mouths, but no-where does the gospel state "ask Jesus into your heart"... that is NOT scriptural. That IS another gospel.  That is 'easy-believism' with the person often times having never even heard the actual GOSPEL, nor comprehending that Jesus died for their sins (and was buried and resurrected).!

Paul continues on in that chapter (1 Cor.15) to expound on GRACE, he also expounds on the resurrection that WE (as believers) will also have at the rapture, with a description of the rapture in that chapter as well.

Any "gospel" that does NOT present the death (that Jesus died for our sins), the burial, and the resurrection is a FALSE GOSPEL. Paul warns us that there are some who would "pervert the gospel of Christ". (Gal.1:7) He further gives more warning in verses 8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I don't care whom the pastor is... Billy Graham or any other... whomever is preaching any gospel in the age of grace OTHER than the gospel as set forth in 1 Cor.15:1-4, it is a FALSE GOSPEL. 
 

I strongly agree with you here Ronda.  It has been said on here recently that some perspons accepted Jesus so were baptised.  

I don't think they should have been if that is all their testimony.  Of course there may be more to it than that, which was not said,

Edited May 4, 2017 by Invicta

[Ronda]

4 hours ago, Invicta said:

I strongly agree with you here Ronda.  It has been said on here recently that some perspons accepted Jesus so were baptised.  

I don't think they should have been if that is all their testimony.  Of course there may be more to it than that, which was not said,

I don't know whom/what you are referencing, brother Invicta (sorry, cannot remember your name), but if the reason a person was baptized (by water, I assume you meant) was that they were expecting it to be a PART of their salvation, they are mistaken. 

I believe we are baptized by the Holy Spirit the moment we believe on Christ for salvation, and the the Holy Spirit indwells is unto the day of redemption. (And by that I must state that the GOSPEL is what we believe... that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and 3 days later arose). Water baptism is something APART from salvation... wherein we CHOOSE to willingly give an outward profession of the inward indwelling. 

As for WHAT the gospel is, I am adamant about this because God's word TELLS us what the gospel is in 1 Cor.15:1-4. This has caused much controversy over my lifetime because there are those who still cling to a "ask Jesus into your heart" so-called gospel, and that is not scriptural. I truly worry about their salvation. The gospel truly IS so simple a child can understand, but as long as it IS the gospel they actually are taught... not a watered down version. There is NO GOSPEL without the fact that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the 3rd day. Yes, I do worry that some are not believing the actual gospel and/or believing on Christ ALONE for salvation!  Paul worried over the same thing... (1 Cor.15:2) that some might "believe in vain"... that they weren't believing the actual gospel! So he laid it out again for them leaving no doubt as to what the gospel actually is (1 Cor.15:1-4)!

 

[Invicta]

My name is David.

[Invicta]

Over tenty years ago, we went to a Baptist Church in Ashford.  While we were there Billy Graham came to England.  Our church was the only one in the town who did not join in to support Graham. 

[Ronda]

13 hours ago, Invicta said:

My name is David.

Thank you, brother David. I always feel odd addressing someone by a user-name.  Now if I can REMEMBER your name it will be a wonderful feat! I could try to blame that on MS, but I've always been terrible with names. Please forgive me.