The Beginning of the New Testament Chruch.

[Alan]

The Beginning of the Church

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Ephesians 2:19 & 20 The foundation, the chief corner stone of the church, is the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus founded His church during His earthly ministry. The Lord Jesus started, while He was on the earth, the church. “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

The Lord is the foundation, the corner stone of the church and the prophets and the apostles are stones set above the foundation. The foundation of the church was set at the ministry of the Lord Jesus and the apostles and prophets continued the building of the church.

Concerning the 'head' of the church, Paul the Apostle was given this doctrine, “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all thins to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all things.” Ephesians 1:22 & 23 The Lord Jesus is the 'head' of the church.

The Prophet and Messenger of the Messiah

John the Baptist is a messenger from God. Those who reject his message, and his baptism, are not following the messenger of God. “And what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.” Luke 7:26 & 27

The individuals in the 'Christian' realm who reject the message, and the mode of baptism, is rejecting the words of the messenger and prophet of God to the church.

The Apostle Paul stated, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gift of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" 1 Corinthians 12:28 & 29

The baptism of John the Baptist, as a messenger and prophet from God, is the baptism for all those who trust in the Lord Jesus and is the only mode of baptism acceptable in the New Testament. The term, 'Baptist,' is a title; it is not the last name of John.

Concerning those who reject the baptism of John

If a person rejects the baptism of John the Baptist, or his followers, than that person is not not scripturally baptized, and, according to the scriptures, he is like the Pharisees and hypocrites. “And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.” Luke 7:29 and 30

The different denominations in the 'Christian' realm, sprinkling, pouring, infant baptism, baptism for the dead (Mormons), who reject the immersion method of John the Baptist are in serious error.

The Apostles were baptized by John the Baptist

All of the apostles of the Lord Jesus were baptized by John the Baptist. Whether or not the term, or title, 'Baptist' is after their name, is immaterial an adding of the requirements of a belief in the scriptures, a 'straw man,' and a non-issue. “Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” Acts 1:22 God only has to give the man of God the term, or office, or calling, or title, 'once,' to make that term, title, office, doctrine, mode of service, scriptural and binding to the saints.

The Giving of the Holy Spirit

The Lord Jesus is the giver of the Holy Spirit to those who are saved. The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are the examples of the church. “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:21-23

The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are an example on how the Lord Jesus is guiding the saints in the New Testament church. For example. As the Lord Jesus sent the apostles around the world as a witness; so is every saint, every church, to be a witness. Matthew 29:1-20 As the Lord Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the Apostles; so He gives every one who trusts in Him the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Ephesians 4:30 There is is no 'tarrying,' or 'waiting,' for the Holy Spirit,' for any saint in the New Testament Church.

The Baptism at Pentecost

The filling of the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus said, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

The Lord Jesus had previously, in John 20:21-23, given the apostles the Holy Ghost. Now, the Lord Jesus is stating for them to remain in Jerusalem to tarry for the 'power' of the Holy Ghost for witnesses, soul-winning, the gift of tongues, to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. The Lord Jesus clearly states they were to receive 'power;' they were not to receive the Holy Spirit, but 'power.'

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Alan
spelling

[Jim_Alaska]

Well done Bro. Alan, thank you for this blessing.

[InSeasonOut]

53 minutes ago, Alan said:

The filling of the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus said, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

The Lord Jesus had previously, in John 20:21-23, given the apostles the Holy Ghost. Now, the Lord Jesus is stating for them to remain in Jerusalem to tarry for the 'power' of the Holy Ghost for witnesses, soul-winning, the gift of tongues, to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. The Lord Jesus clearly states they were to receive 'power;' they were not to receive the Holy Spirit, but 'power.'

This is the only part I have questions on. Perhaps the church started in the ministry of Jesus. Still Acts 7:38 can't be ignored.

I agree the Holy Spirit was not given to start "the church". The Spirit was given to start "the body of Christ". Do you not make this distinction?

In Acts 1:8 from what I see, they received power after the Holy Ghost came upon them (at Pentecost) In Acts 1:5 it says they will be baptized... they weren't when Jesus spoke this.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

John 20:22 is a verse I don't entirely understand. I know in the OT the Spirit could come and go (Psalm 51:11 for example). I don't know what happened. But as I read Acts, they were yet to be baptized with the Spirit.

2 more questions would be; how were they disciples baptized into the body of Christ? And when did this first happen?

 

[Alan]

On 6/5/2017 at 8:29 PM, InSeasonOut said:

This is the only part I have questions on. Perhaps the church started in the ministry of Jesus. Still Acts 7:38 can't be ignored.

I agree the Holy Spirit was not given to start "the church". The Spirit was given to start "the body of Christ". Do you not make this distinction?

In Acts 1:8 from what I see, they received power after the Holy Ghost came upon them (at Pentecost) In Acts 1:5 it says they will be baptized... they weren't when Jesus spoke this.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

John 20:22 is a verse I don't entirely understand. I know in the OT the Spirit could come and go (Psalm 51:11 for example). I don't know what happened. But as I read Acts, they were yet to be baptized with the Spirit.

2 more questions would be; how were they disciples baptized into the body of Christ? And when did this first happen?

InSeasonOut,

I will use a numbering system to try and answer (most of) your questions.

1. Acts 7:37 & 38, "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the Mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us."

The Lord Jesus is the prophet that Moses spoke of and the Lord Jesus was to be believed, and followed, as Moses was.

InSeasonOut, after reading your thoughts on this verse I felt that you are symbolizing 'the church in the wilderness' too much. The 'church in the wilderness' in not the church in the New Testament. The 'church in the wilderness' was a called out assembly of Jews from Egypt. To use the 'church in the wilderness' and conclude, "The church started in the wilderness with Israel - The body of Christ started at Pentecost with the apostles (Israelites)," is not correct and is confusing the issue. The usage of Hebrew 4:8 and 2:12 with Exodus 15:1, Joshua 5:13-15 and Psalm 22:22 is further confusing the issue.

One of the reasons why I started the, "The Beginning of the Church,' was due to this confusing of scriptures that tries to take away the beginning of the church in Acts 2 and not with the ministry of Christ.

2. Acts 1:5 & 8 are clearly dealing with the baptism for the power of the Holy Spirit. John baptized with water as a sign of repentance; the baptism that the disciples were tarrying for was for power.

May I bring out a point for all of the brethren as a side issue?

A lot of folks are properly baptized;  but they do not have power to witness. There is a difference. A lot of saints have no power for witnessing, but, they are saved, born again, and attending church regularly. But, do they witness? No. Why? Instead of being filled with the Spirit they are filled with themselves. Maybe if you think about that long enough you may realize what Acts 1:5 and 8 is all about.

InSeasonOut,

The remainder of your questions involve a new thread. We will keep these posting on the beginning of the church and not branch out into other areas.

Alan

 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Alan
grammer

[InSeasonOut]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

InSeasonOut, after reading your thoughts on this verse I felt that you are symbolizes 'the church in the wilderness' too much. The 'church in the wilderness' in not the church in the New Testament. The 'church in the wilderness' was a called out assembly of Jews from Egypt. To use the 'church in the wilderness' and conclude, "The church started in the wilderness with Israel - The body of Christ started at Pentecost with the apostles (Israelites)," is not correct and is confusing the issue. The usage of Hebrew 4:8 and 2:12 with Exodus 15:1, Joshua 5:13-15 and Psalm 22:22 is further confusing the issue.

So are these 2 different churches? How so? Is Israel a "church" by definition? How is this different than the NT church? When did the church in the wilderness end? It seems to me the church in the wilderness was where they were at, at that time. They weren't the church when they were only in the wilderness and not after that... Israel was always a church after they were called out of Egypt.

These are a lot of questions, but they are honest questions. They are not to cause debate, but to learn.

I simply used Hebrews 4:8 to say Jesus was with Israel. Jesus is the captain of the LORD's host. Joshua took orders from him.

I believe the song mentioned in Hebrews 2:12 was the song of Moses in Ex. 15 - again sung in Rev. 15. (Psalm 22:22 is quotation of Hebrews 2:12)

(side note: You titled this, "The Beginning of the New Testament Church" ; which technically the NT didn't start until after the death of the testator Jesus Christ according to Hebrews 9:15-17. So to say the church started with the ministry of Jesus and the disciples, before the cross, this is still doctrinally old testament. And the disciples were all Jews = Israel. Therefore the church in the gospels is still Israel. Jesus only went to Jews (Matthew 10:5-6)

1 hour ago, Alan said:

The remainder of your questions involve a new thread. We will keep these posting on the beginning of the church and not branch out into other areas

I started this new thread and I would love to see your answers to them. Thanks Alan.

-Jake.

Edited June 6, 2017 by InSeasonOut

[Alan]

1 hour ago, InSeasonOut said:

side note: You titled this, "The Beginning of the New Testament Church" ; which technically the NT didn't start until after the death of the testator Jesus Christ according to Hebrews 9:15-17. So to say the church started with the ministry of Jesus and the disciples, before the cross, this is still doctrinally old testament. And the disciples were all Jews = Israel. Therefore the church in the gospels is still Israel. Jesus only went to Jews (Matthew 10:5-6)

I assumed that all here on OnLine Baptist realized that the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were in the New Testament, I was not referring to the 'testament,' or covenants,  in Hebrews 9:15-17. The 'testaments' in Hebrews 9:15-17 are dealing with the two Covenants, the Levitical Law and Grace; not the wording of the Old and New Testament. Hebrews 9:15-17 does not contradict my above lesson.

According to my previous quotations of Paul the Apostle of Ephesians 2:19, Matthew 16:18 and Ephesians 1:22, the Lord Jesus clearly is foundation of the New Testament church. I would also like for all to notice that I clearly used the word, "beginning." The word 'beginning' means the start of something not the end. 

4 hours ago, Alan said:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Ephesians 2:19 & 20 The foundation, the chief corner stone of the church, is the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus founded His church during His earthly ministry. The Lord Jesus started, while He was on the earth, the church. “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

The Lord is the foundation, the corner stone of the church and the prophets and the apostles are stones set above the foundation. The foundation of the church was set at the ministry of the Lord Jesus and the apostles and prophets continued the building of the church.

Concerning the 'head' of the church, Paul the Apostle was given this doctrine, “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all thins to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all things.” Ephesians 1:22 & 23 The Lord Jesus is the 'head' of the church.

The 'beginning,' the foundation, the start, the corner-stone, of the New Testament church is the Lord Jesus.

Oh, by the way, the Lord Jesus is also the 'ending' of the New Testament Church. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

May I ask a favor? why not just discuss the passages that I mentioned?

The title of this lesson is, "The Beginning of the New Testament Church." I see no reason to change it.

Alan

Edited June 6, 2017 by Alan
re-formatted

[Alan]

5 hours ago, Alan said:

The Beginning of the Church

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." Ephesians 2:19 & 20 The foundation, the chief corner stone of the church, is the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus founded His church during His earthly ministry. The Lord Jesus started, while He was on the earth, the church. “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

The Lord is the foundation, the corner stone of the church and the prophets and the apostles are stones set above the foundation. The foundation of the church was set at the ministry of the Lord Jesus and the apostles and prophets continued the building of the church.

Concerning the 'head' of the church, Paul the Apostle was given this doctrine, “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all thins to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all things.” Ephesians 1:22 & 23 The Lord Jesus is the 'head' of the church.

The Prophet and Messenger of the Messiah

John the Baptist is a messenger from God. Those who reject his message, and his baptism, are not following the messenger of God. “And what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.” Luke 7:26 & 27

The individuals in the 'Christian' realm who reject the message, and the mode of baptism, is rejecting the words of the messenger and prophet of God to the church.

The Apostle Paul stated, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gift of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" 1 Corinthians 12:28 & 29

The baptism of John the Baptist, as a messenger and prophet from God, is the baptism for all those who trust in the Lord Jesus and is the only mode of baptism acceptable in the New Testament. The term, 'Baptist,' is a title; it is not the last name of John.

Concerning those who reject the baptism of John

If a person rejects the baptism of John the Baptist, or his followers, than that person is not not scripturally baptized, and, according to the scriptures, he is like the Pharisees and hypocrites. “And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.” Luke 7:29 and 30

The different denominations in the 'Christian' realm, sprinkling, pouring, infant baptism, baptism for the dead (Mormons), who reject the immersion method of John the Baptist are in serious error.

The Apostles were baptized by John the Baptist

All of the apostles of the Lord Jesus were baptized by John the Baptist. Whether or not the term, or title, 'Baptist' is after their name, is immaterial an adding of the requirements of a belief in the scriptures, a 'straw man,' and a non-issue. “Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.” Acts 1:22 God only has to give the man of God the term, or office, or calling, or title, 'once,' to make that term, title, office, doctrine, mode of service, scriptural and binding to the saints.

The Giving of the Holy Spirit

The Lord Jesus is the giver of the Holy Spirit to those who are saved. The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are the examples of the church. “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whoe soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:21-23

The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are an example on how the Lord Jesus is guiding the saints in the New Testament church. For example. As the Lord Jesus sent the apostles around the world as a witness; so is every saint, every church, to be a witness. Matthew 29:1-20 As the Lord Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the Apostles; so He gives every one who trusts in Him the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. Ephesians 4:30 There is is no 'tarrying,' or 'waiting,' for the Holy Spirit,' for any saint in the New Testament Church.

The Baptism at Pentecost

The filling of the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus said, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

The Lord Jesus had previously, in John 20:21-23, given the apostles the Holy Ghost. Now, the Lord Jesus is stating for them to remain in Jerusalem to tarry for the 'power' of the Holy Ghost for witnesses, soul-winning, the gift of tongues, to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. The Lord Jesus clearly states they were to receive 'power;' they were not to receive the Holy Spirit, but 'power.'

 

 

 

I had previously written:

The Giving of the Holy Spirit

The Lord Jesus is the giver of the Holy Spirit to those who are saved. The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are the examples of the church. “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whoe soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:21-23

According to my knowledge of the scriptures this is after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus and clearly with the framework of Hebrews 9:15-17

2 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

(side note: You titled this, "The Beginning of the New Testament Church" ; which technically the NT didn't start until after the death of the testator Jesus Christ according to Hebrews 9:15-17. So to say the church started with the ministry of Jesus and the disciples, before the cross, this is still doctrinally old testament. And the disciples were all Jews = Israel. Therefore the church in the gospels is still Israel. Jesus only went to Jews (Matthew 10:5-6)

According to any body's reasoning, John 20:21-23, is doctrinally in the New Testament; after the death of the testator, Hebrews 9:16 Also, Matthew 10:5-6 has no bearing on the start of the New Testament church nor on the lesson of this thread.

As I previously stated, the problem with those who do not believe that the Lord Jesus started the church during His earthly ministry (the Lord Jesus was still on the earth in John 20:21-23), is that they have a incorrect interpretation of the Jews, the church, the salvation of the Jews under the Law, the giving and the filling of the Holy Spirit are two different things, a mis-understanding of being born and saved, and the work of the Holy Spirit. Some of the brethren refer to this as 'hyper-dispensation.' I tend to agree with that designation.

Alan

Edited June 6, 2017 by Alan
added 'again' deleted doubled word

[InSeasonOut]

12 hours ago, Alan said:

As I previously stated, the problem with those who do not believe that the Lord Jesus started the church during His earthly ministry (the Lord Jesus was still on the earth in John 20:21-23), is that they have a incorrect interpretation of the Jews, the church, the salvation of the Jews under the Law, the giving and the filling of the Holy Spirit are two different things, a mis-understanding of being born and saved, and the work of the Holy Spirit. Some of the brethren refer to this as 'hyper-dispensation.' I tend to agree with that designation.

I hope this is not referring to me, because I have not even discussed all these subjects, in detail at least...

Also Jesus started the church in the wilderness.

14 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

So are these 2 different churches? How so? Is Israel a "church" by definition? How is this different than the NT church? When did the church in the wilderness end? It seems to me the church in the wilderness was where they were at, at that time. They weren't the church when they were only in the wilderness and not after that... Israel was always a church after they were called out of Egypt.

May I ask you to address these questions?

[Alan]

4 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

Also Jesus started the church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:37 and 38 does not say that Jesus started the church in the wilderness. As I said before, you are reading too much, (supposing), things that are not in the scriptures.

20 hours ago, Alan said:

Acts 7:37 & 38, "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the Mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us."

The Lord Jesus is the prophet that Moses spoke of and the Lord Jesus was to be believed, and followed, as Moses was.

InSeasonOut, after reading your thoughts on this verse I felt that you are symbolizes 'the church in the wilderness' too much. The 'church in the wilderness' in not the church in the New Testament. The 'church in the wilderness' was a called out assembly of Jews from Egypt. To use the 'church in the wilderness' and conclude, "The church started in the wilderness with Israel - The body of Christ started at Pentecost with the apostles (Israelites)," is not correct and is confusing the issue. The usage of Hebrew 4:8 and 2:12 with Exodus 15:1, Joshua 5:13-15 and Psalm 22:22 is further confusing the issue.

One of the reasons why I started the, "The Beginning of the Church,' was due to this confusing of scriptures that tries to take away the beginning of the church in Acts 2 and not with the ministry of Christ.

The scriptures clearly say that the Lord, "... that was in the wilderness..."

[Alan]

InSeasonOut,

It would help this discussion a whole lot if you addressed, or answered, the passages that I have already dealt with instead of asking new questions. It would help our discussion if I knew that you agreed, or disagreed, with the passages already given. Please let me know which ones you agree with or disagree with. Specifically, my original post, passages and the interpretation, dealing with, "The Beginning of the Church."

I have adequately proven that the Lord Jesus started the New Testament church during His ministry on the earth; including the giving of the Holy Spirit, the Great Commission to the apostles who then taught these doctrines to the church. I have also adequately proved that the Lord Jesus has met the requirements of the testator, Hebrews 9:15-17, and the giving of the Holy Spirit, during His earthy ministry; John 20:21-23

Alan

 

[InSeasonOut]

22 hours ago, Alan said:

The Lord Jesus started, while He was on the earth, the church. “And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

Ok. I agree with everything on the first section called "The beginning of the church". But with your quote I cited, is the church in effect AT  Mt. 16:18 ? Or PRIOR to 16:18 ? Or is the church yet future... "...I will build..." ? Secondly does the church only consist of Israel (up until the gospel goes to Gentiles with Paul obviously) With this in mind, is it fair to say the church was Israel ?

I would say prior, - Acts 7:38 which I quoted many times.... this is why I asked you " are these 2 DIFFERENT churches?

22 hours ago, Alan said:

The baptism of John the Baptist, as a messenger and prophet from God, is the baptism for all those who trust in the Lord Jesus and is the only mode of baptism acceptable in the New Testament.

I agree with everything in the 2nd section "The Prophet and messenger..."  - On this quote do you mean immersion? John's baptism was different, as it was not the Acts 2:38 baptism or the Matthew 28:19 baptism (correct one) which are all still by immersion.

I agree with everything in the 3rd section... where you mention the error of sprinkling etc. This is why I infer you meant immersion by John's baptism. I agree with the 4th section as well

22 hours ago, Alan said:

The Lord Jesus is the giver of the Holy Spirit to those who are saved. The apostles, as part of the foundation of the church, are the examples of the church. “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whoe soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:21-23

I agree with everything on the 5th section "the giving of the Holy Spirit" ... - But a question I have for this section is if you believe John 20:22 is when they "baptized with the Holy Ghost"  (not baptism "of" the Holy Ghost - someone got on my case because I said "of" - just word games I believe were besides the point)

You previously commented on this but again, let me quote Acts 1:5 - "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Alan, in your response, can you please quote Acts 1:5 also, and then tell me they were already baptized with the Holy Ghost prior to this?

22 hours ago, Alan said:

The filling of the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost for empowerment to witness; not to start the church. The Lord Jesus said, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

The Lord Jesus had previously, in John 20:21-23, given the apostles the Holy Ghost. Now, the Lord Jesus is stating for them to remain in Jerusalem to tarry for the 'power' of the Holy Ghost for witnesses, soul-winning, the gift of tongues, to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. The Lord Jesus clearly states they were to receive 'power;' they were not to receive the Holy Spirit, but 'power.'

Here is the last section quoted above. - Like I said previously, I agree the Spirit was not given to start "the church" like you said. But I do believe the Spirit was given to start the body of Christ -do you not make this distinction? Or were they baptized into the body of Christ at John 20:22 ? Do you believe the body of Christ was in effect prior to Acts 2 or John 20:22 ? - Remember 1 Corinthians 12:13 , no one is in the body until they have the Spirit. Agree?

Acts 1:8 from what I see they receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come ... not before that the Holy Ghost is come.. Again 1:5 says they were not yet baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I hope I cleared things up, I just have questions on those things.

[Alan]

Thank you for your reply. It greatly helps the discussion.

I need to get ready for an appointment. I will be copying your reply (I copy most of the discussions), so I can answer it later.

God bless!

[Alan]

Jake,

Here is the answer to three of your questions:

Question # 1 – The Church in the Wilderness

Ok. I agree with everything on the first section called "The beginning of the church". But with your quote I cited, is the church in effect AT  Mt. 16:18 ? Or PRIOR to 16:18 ? . Or is the church yet future... "...I will build..." ? Secondly does the church only consist of Israel (up until the gospel goes to Gentiles with Paul obviously) With this in mind, is it fair to say the church was Israel ? I never said it was prior, or just after, Matthew 16:18 I said the Lord Jesus began to build His church while He had His ministry on the earth. This is the meaning of Matthew 16:18 The church is made up of Jews and Gentiles.

I would say prior, - Acts 7:38 which I quoted many times.... this is why I asked you " are these 2 DIFFERENT churches? As I stated before, the Lord Jesus did not build the New Testament church in the wilderness wanderings of the nation of Israel. Stephen is clearly using the word church as in a congregation of people; not as a New Testament church.

Question # 2 – Baptism Acts 2:38 & Matthew 28:19

  23 hours ago, Alan said:

The baptism of John the Baptist, as a messenger and prophet from God, is the baptism for all those who trust in the Lord Jesus and is the only mode of baptism acceptable in the New Testament.

I agree with everything in the 2nd section "The Prophet and messenger..."  - On this quote do you mean immersion? John's baptism was different, as it was not the Acts 2:38 baptism or the Matthew 28:19 baptism (correct one) which are all still by immersion. I obviously did mean immersion. Let's worry about Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19 in a different thread.

Question # 3

I agree with everything on the 5th section "the giving of the Holy Spirit" ... - But a question I have for this section is if you believe John 20:22 is when they "baptized with the Holy Ghost"  (not baptism "of" the Holy Ghost - someone got on my case because I said "of" - just word games I believe were besides the point) I never said that in John 20:22 that the disciples were, “baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

You previously commented on this but again, let me quote Acts 1:5 - "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."  When I referenced Acts 1:5 I clearly stated that Acts 1:5 and 8 was a totally separate issue than the giving of the Holy Spirit for 'power' for witnessing. Here is my full quote:

“May I bring out a point for all of the brethren as a side issue?

A lot of folks are properly baptized;  but they do not have power to witness. There is a difference. A lot of saints have no power for witnessing, but, they are saved, born again, and attending church regularly. But, do they witness? No. Why? Instead of being filled with the Spirit they are filled with themselves. Maybe if you think about that long enough you may realize what Acts 1:5 and 8 is all about.”

Alan, in your response, can you please quote Acts 1:5 also, and then tell me they were already baptized with the Holy Ghost prior to this? I never stated that the disciples were, “baptized with the Holy Ghost' prior to Acts 1:5

Alan

Edited June 7, 2017 by Alan
deleted a mis-spoken word & deleted harsh statements & title

[Alimantado]

While I don't understand everything that's being talked about here, it's obvious to me that Alan and InSeasonOut are putting their best efforts into keeping the discussion both on track and charitable in tone and I really appreciate that.

[Alan]

Alimantado,

Both InSeasonOut, and I, would like to thank you for your kind words.

"The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat." Proverbs 15:30

Thank you.

Alan