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Everything posted by InSeasonOut

  1. Can I answer your question with a question? How are the "tribulation saints" saved after the rapture? Faith alone?
  2. Here is my humble answer. While I agree salvation was by grace through faith before the law was given, but after the law was given, they couldn't just have faith and reject God's commandments. They needed a sin offering , shedding of blood of an animal of some sort to cover their sin. (While no one ever goes to heaven apart from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, how his blood is applied differs in each dispensation). Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Exodus 35:1-3 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them. 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. This isn't just physical salvation, of staying alive. It was also spiritual. There was no eternal security in under the law in the OT. I support the nation of Israel, and believe they will inherit the land God promised them, but many Jews still went to hell, (and many today as well because they reject Christ, it doesn't matter if they keep the law today). But under OT law, if they died in their sins they went to hell. (not Abraham's Bosom / Paradise). Psalm 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." - God in his mercy even delivered David from hell. He was a great man of faith, but he transgressed God's law and was in danger of hell. Obeying God's law in the OT had the benefit of giving them material blessings. Numbers 16:31-35 31 ¶ And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; 14a 14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin... 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. Levi 5:1-3 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. 2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. 3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty. ... 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin. Quick note, God said if a "soul" sin, or a "soul touch..." Their soul is connected to their flesh. Ezekiel 18:4-5 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 ¶ But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,... 18:8-9 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. ... 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. ... 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. It's clear that even they could die in their sins and they would go to hell. They had to keep God's commandments. Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Pharisee's is a little different situation, but even they said in Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And actually note that these are Pharisees which believed, meaning in Jesus. But even they were confused about keeping the law... the whole chapter of Acts 15 is pretty much about this... and i'd say more but I hope you get why I say this so far.
  3. The church im a part of is so big, a single building cannot contain us.... know what I mean? I don't go to a "church building" anymore. There was an IFB church I went to a few times that's good, but its an hour away and I can't afford to drive there every week. Theres been a few churches in town i went to , but in all good conscience cannot attend. I think I said a few things about it here and elsewhere on this site... I don't remember. But that's all i want to say. I don't feel like, or even feel comfortable talking about it with someone i don't know. Hope you understand. I've only been saved a few years and im just focusing on my relationship with the Lord Jesus.
  4. Brother, in no way was this the case. If you look back over the last few posts, you'll see we have a lot of agreements. Sure I ask a lot of questions but I believe they were important to the discussion. Sorry we didn't see that the same way.
  5. ohhkay... sorry about that. Thanks for clarifying. My point in using Matt. 10 was to say the early church consisted only of Jews. This is an easy fact. The 12 disciples were all Jews. This was all I was saying with this scripture. (but you said : "I feel, that you are trying to get around, or complicate, this doctrine by miss-using typology, Matthew 10:5& 6Acts 1:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13 to say something they are not saying " as if you believe otherwise than what the text plainly said. Obviously Jesus had dealings with the Samaritans, but it does not contradict Matt 10, - but anyway this is besides the point. Alan, we were on the same page when you said : Then all I said was... I then gave a sincere and direct response to you, which I thought was relevant. We even had more agreements, even though you misunderstood me, which I pointed out. I then suggested we discuss 7:38 - Was this not okay? I thought it was relevant. It seemed we were making progress, and then I asked you the questions you were yet to answer, since you only answered 3. May I ask you to answer the other ones or is that not okay? I even made a separate thread but you have not answered them there either. I;m not saying your avoiding these questions... but these were the easiest ones! :) :( I'm not "trying"... if you think this way, sorry, it was a misunderstanding.... just like you misunderstood me, 2 posts ago. It happens. I can't help but feel like this becoming contentious, like you said you simply believe the words of the Lord Jesus and Paul the apostle ; implying I don't? :(
  6. Yes i already understand this. I did say Stephen was not referring to the NT church Correct.... you misunderstood me.... Yes "at the moment of the death of Christ it was possible" ; "to be a part of the body of Christ" .... but that did not actually happen UNTIL Pentecost, in other words, AT Penetecost, even though as Eph. 2:16 says it was made possible by the Cross. Absolutely Ephesians 2:16-20, is basically in short summary, saying Jews and Gentiles are now one body, made possible by the cross. 19-20 "Now therefore ye (Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " Let me quote theses scriptures and so, in response you can elaborate... Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. What im saying is Jesus did not go to Samaritans or Gentiles , only to Israel - Just as the text says - but you said this is something they are not saying? 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. This deals with a question i asked, which you are yet to answer.... 1. How are we baptized into "one body" ? (not the church) 2. When did this first happen? If someone were to ask me that, i would answer : 1 We are baptized into the one body by the Spirit. 2 This first happened on the day of Pentecost. And let me remind you, that you have just said : and: Thanks for your patience.
  7. Okay, now we're getting somewhere :) I agree with everything on your post above, except I still think we should discuss Acts 7:38 more, in how they were "the church.." I agree, but this is where it gets technical and confusing I the sense that terms need to be defined. I agree Jesus did not build the "NT church in the wilderness" , but I believe he did "call out" (maybe not necessarily "build") the church in the wilderness (Israel - not NT church) Not to get sidetracked by the Godhead, but "the angel of the Lord" ( Exodus 3:2-6) was said to bring Israel out of Egypt. And the LORD God was also said to bring them out of Egypt. (Exodus 13:21 ; 14:19-24). There's way more to it than this, but to speak plainly, I'm saying I believe Jesus is the angel of the Lord. - So Jesus called out Israel (the church of 7:37-39) from the Egypt, and Jesus called out Christians (the church of 1 Corinth. 12:28 for example) from the world (type of Egypt). I'm not saying the church in the wilderness was part of the "NT church", in fact I don't make the distinction at all between, OT church and NT church. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying... 7:38 is just a "church" in the sense of a congregation, as you said, or "called out assembly from Egypt". - This "church" , consisting of Israel, has always been a ":church" - by definition - and meaning they were not to go back to Egypt. So when I say the church began with Israel, im not saying NT church, i mean by the definition above. I believe there is no distinction between OT church and NT church, its just "the church" (by definition). When Jesus began to "build" the church in his ministry, it only consisted of Israel, (Matthew 10:5-6). Then after Jesus died on the cross and rose again, this event made it possible for the church to become "the body" (Ephesians 2:16) at Pentecost - Comparing Acts 1:5 with 1 Corinthians 12:13. Allowing both Jews and Gentiles to be the church. I will admit, this might be the hardest thing i ever studied, im not trying to complicate it, im just trying to think it thru still as im still figuring it all out. Hopefully i communicated this, in such a way that my understanding is not unfruitful. Again, i hope this clears things up... -Jake.
  8. Sure, thanks for asking the way you did. Quick question though which will determine how I respond.. Do you believe that OT Jews were saved by looking forward to the cross ? Or are you saying they were just saved by faith?
  9. Well first nay i politely ask why didn't you answer my questions? ... And I knew how you were using those scriptures to falsely assume OT Jews were saved by faith and not the law. (BTW: Baptists are not the final authority. The Bible is. You know that. I know that :) But dealing with the scriptures you posted in Galatians. I know the context of Galatians, Jews were trying to put Christians back under the law. Christians are not under the law, but Jews were! - Even reference any orthodox Jew today, he will not tell you he is saved by "faith alone". The word faith only appears twice in the OT. How about I reference a verse in Galatians... 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Why couldn't an OT Jew only keep part of the law? Why was he a debtor to do the whole law? Wasn't he saved by his faith? (im speaking if OT Jews - not NT) If you want me to start a thread on this topic, I will. But in the meantime look up the words / phrase "sin offering" and "law of Moses". Your concordance works just like mine.
  10. I'm new here so idk what this is all about... I hope ive contributed to some good discussions, but if anyone thinks my posts are the "worse" ones, then it'd be nice for them to let me know ... only one person has reached out and communicated with me. Other than that, i just joined this site for fellowship, and idk if this is what im looking for here.... I'm enjoying the discussions so far... sure we have some disagreements, but that's no reason to be contentious.
  11. I feel this same way. I just want to make it clear I never said this. ( I know my original post is long and there are becoming many comments on this thread so again, so again I don't even know who said this but it wasn't me)
  12. Ok. I agree with everything on the first section called "The beginning of the church". But with your quote I cited, is the church in effect AT Mt. 16:18 ? Or PRIOR to 16:18 ? Or is the church yet future... "...I will build..." ? Secondly does the church only consist of Israel (up until the gospel goes to Gentiles with Paul obviously) With this in mind, is it fair to say the church was Israel ? I would say prior, - Acts 7:38 which I quoted many times.... this is why I asked you " are these 2 DIFFERENT churches? I agree with everything in the 2nd section "The Prophet and messenger..." - On this quote do you mean immersion? John's baptism was different, as it was not the Acts 2:38 baptism or the Matthew 28:19 baptism (correct one) which are all still by immersion. I agree with everything in the 3rd section... where you mention the error of sprinkling etc. This is why I infer you meant immersion by John's baptism. I agree with the 4th section as well I agree with everything on the 5th section "the giving of the Holy Spirit" ... - But a question I have for this section is if you believe John 20:22 is when they "baptized with the Holy Ghost" (not baptism "of" the Holy Ghost - someone got on my case because I said "of" - just word games I believe were besides the point) You previously commented on this but again, let me quote Acts 1:5 - "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Alan, in your response, can you please quote Acts 1:5 also, and then tell me they were already baptized with the Holy Ghost prior to this? Here is the last section quoted above. - Like I said previously, I agree the Spirit was not given to start "the church" like you said. But I do believe the Spirit was given to start the body of Christ -do you not make this distinction? Or were they baptized into the body of Christ at John 20:22 ? Do you believe the body of Christ was in effect prior to Acts 2 or John 20:22 ? - Remember 1 Corinthians 12:13 , no one is in the body until they have the Spirit. Agree? Acts 1:8 from what I see they receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come ... not before that the Holy Ghost is come.. Again 1:5 says they were not yet baptized with the Holy Ghost. I hope I cleared things up, I just have questions on those things.
  13. Ok, thanks for clarifying... To speak plainly, Yes - When a believer is indwelt with the Spirit, he is born again. Being born again, is not apart from being indwelt with the Spirit. This is clear from the OT examples I gave... The Spirit was only upon them, rested upon, or fell upon, etc... the OT saints. They were not indwelt... the Spirit could (and did) leave, this is why I say they were not "born again". They were saved, but born again. The OT Jews could lose the Spirit (Psalm 51:11) thus they would lose the "new birth" of being born again. There was no eternal security in the OT. To be born again the Spirit must indwell you, which seals you (NT) We cannot lose the new birth. OT saints could lose the Spirit, therefore they were not born again. Filling by definition would, is to be inside an object. To be upon, or rest upon, or fall upon, is to be outside an object. I agree with the 3 different works you listed, but all occur for the NT Christian.
  14. I know about all this. I disagree. Not one of those quotes are from the OT. The Bible shows progressive revelation. Anyway, I did say this is another thread, and id rather put debates aside, yet for some reason you bring it up? Plus you never even answered the questions I asked you before ... so I don't know how I should respond to this.
  15. I hope this is not referring to me, because I have not even discussed all these subjects, in detail at least... Also Jesus started the church in the wilderness. May I ask you to address these questions?
  16. Thank you. I agree. You've confirmed what I believe, as this topic came up elsewhere. However I have a question concerning your statement : Do you remember where in the OT this happened? I've read the OT but I don't recall anywhere when anyone was born again, or indwelt with the Spirit. Several places it says "the Spirit of the LORD came upon.." (Judges 3:10 ; 6:34 ; 11:29) or etc. There are different ways it's said but basically says the Spirit of the LORD " came upon me , is upon me ; or rest upon me ; or fell upon me " etc... It seems to me that being indwelt by the Spirit (NT) is different than the Spirit being upon someone (OT). As the Spirit could depart if it was upon them (OT) but it cannot depart if one is indwelt / sealed (NT). One of the mysteries that was revealed to Paul was the indwelling of the Spirit (Colossians 1:26-27). Is this something different?
  17. So are these 2 different churches? How so? Is Israel a "church" by definition? How is this different than the NT church? When did the church in the wilderness end? It seems to me the church in the wilderness was where they were at, at that time. They weren't the church when they were only in the wilderness and not after that... Israel was always a church after they were called out of Egypt. These are a lot of questions, but they are honest questions. They are not to cause debate, but to learn. I simply used Hebrews 4:8 to say Jesus was with Israel. Jesus is the captain of the LORD's host. Joshua took orders from him. I believe the song mentioned in Hebrews 2:12 was the song of Moses in Ex. 15 - again sung in Rev. 15. (Psalm 22:22 is quotation of Hebrews 2:12) (side note: You titled this, "The Beginning of the New Testament Church" ; which technically the NT didn't start until after the death of the testator Jesus Christ according to Hebrews 9:15-17. So to say the church started with the ministry of Jesus and the disciples, before the cross, this is still doctrinally old testament. And the disciples were all Jews = Israel. Therefore the church in the gospels is still Israel. Jesus only went to Jews (Matthew 10:5-6) I started this new thread and I would love to see your answers to them. Thanks Alan. -Jake.
  18. Yeah I noticed what you meant... I edited my post above.... Thank you. Again thanks, but like I said, an honest mistake... But I never claimed to be a teacher... in fact I said my post was a "rough draft" and at the beginning... I posted this for fellowship, im new to this site and new to this position I hold in my post. I'm open to correction. But I asked for correction in meekness. There's a right and a wrong way to go about correcting a brother. Many are rude and sarcastic, and theres a time and reason for that. But this is an area where we can disagree without calling eachother hereticks, and causing contention and strife and being prideful. There's enough of that.
  19. Wow thanks for your kind words... like I said : please elaborate. and give scripture! *edit Ok I see what you mean... all you had to say is the scriptures I gave above to your reply say "baptized with the Holy Ghost" - not "of" That's an honest mistake I didn't realize. Haven't you had your share? But that's no reason to yoke me up with false teachers and say im careless. The correct reading is "with" - but what is "of" ? I would figure it has the same meaning. If you know otherwise please share. To be honest your comment caused strife towards me, and I'm trying to be nice. You went about the wrong way in trying to correct a brother in Christ. James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom
  20. And you hold that against me ? When I read the bible, why would I believe someone has the Spirit, when the bible doesn't say someone has the Spirit? :) I cannot in all honesty make that assumption. I appreciate that. But yes I strongly believe the OT Jews were saved by faith and keeping the law. I'm aware of the position you hold. But that's another thread, and id rather put debates aside. Chapter and verse? Please elaborate
  21. 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." How is a believer baptized into the body of Christ? And when did this first happen in the Bible? Is being baptized with the Spirit mean you are born again? Does this include water?
  22. I agree Nicodemus was not saved, nor born again. Nicodemus had no idea what being born again was (John 3:4). While I also agree the Spirit convicts men of sin in any dispensation, this does not mean they are born of the Spirit, just because they are convicted of sin by the Spirit. (I don't think that's what you were saying...?) And Adam to the last man on earth is born of the Spirit? Are you included lost sinners? Jesus said to the Pharisees (Jews) in John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." They were hypocrites, and had many problems. The Pharisees were not saved nor born again. The disciples were saved because they were law keeping Jews, knew John's baptism, and followed Jesus. And John 3 says to be born again is to be born of the Spirit. Correct me if im wrong, but no where does it say they received the Spirit prior to Acts 2 (or even John 20:22 for that matter) Yet John's (the Baptist) parents were blameless (Luke 1:5-7 ; and in 1:15 John was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb). Still I wouldn't say John the Baptist was ever born again. He was saved, he was a law keeping Jew. But its difficult to find old testament saints that had the Spirit. There isn't that many. To say someone had the Spirit when the text doesn't say so is assumption.

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