When the church started. Pentecost or Israel

[InSeasonOut]

3 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Inseasonout,

One point of error upon which you base your arguments and which you use repeatedly is the phrase "Baptism of the Holy Ghost". 

This specific phrase is not found in the Bible anywhere as far as I can see.

I have a hard time accepting much else of your argument when you put so much store in an unbiblical phrase.

Not word for word, but im talking about the act of being baptized with the Holy Ghost is the baptism of the Holy Ghost. There how many baptisms in the bible, how ever you wanna say it as long as the concept is there. Baptism with / or of water. Or just "water baptism" < that term does not appear. But water baptism is a biblical concept right?

I say this to make a distinction between water baptism and baptism of the Holy Ghost. They are not the same. Many charismatics get this wrong.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

They received the "baptism of the Holy Ghost" in 19:6 - not 19:5 -

[InSeasonOut]

19 minutes ago, Alan said:

You are correct. I was asking you what you meant by your statement.

The error was was both; the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of all individuals to convict them of their sins and their need of salvation.  I was trying to refer you to John 3:1-21 Let me use a verse from that passage. We need to remember that Nicodemus was a religious leader in Israel, a Jew, who knew about Abraham, the law, the prophets; but he was never saved was not born-again.

Verse 5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Anybody, from Adam, to the last man on the face of this earth, is born by 'the Spirit." The "Spirit," is clearly the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is convicts men, in any dispensation, of their need of salvation.

Except for Judas Iscariot, all of the apostles of the Lord Jesus were saved; born again. To state that the apostles, disciples, were saved, but not born again, is an error. There in not one word in Acts 2, nor even the hint, that the disciples were not born again. To use 1 Corinthians 12:13 as a text for the belief that the disciples, or apostles, before Acts 2 were saved, but not born again, is not 'rightly dividing' the scriptures.

Alan

I agree Nicodemus was not saved, nor born again. Nicodemus had no idea what being born again was (John 3:4).

While I also agree the Spirit convicts men of sin in any dispensation, this does not mean they are born of the Spirit, just because they are convicted of sin by the Spirit. (I don't think that's what you were saying...?) And Adam to the last man on earth is born of the Spirit? Are you included lost sinners?

Jesus said to the Pharisees (Jews)  in John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." They were hypocrites, and had many problems. The Pharisees were not saved nor born again. The disciples were saved because they were law keeping Jews, knew John's baptism, and followed Jesus. And John 3 says to be born again is to be born of the Spirit. Correct me if im wrong, but no where does it say they received the Spirit prior to Acts 2 (or even John 20:22 for that matter)

Yet John's (the Baptist) parents were blameless (Luke 1:5-7 ; and in 1:15 John was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb). Still I wouldn't say John the Baptist was ever born again. He was saved, he was a law keeping Jew. But its difficult to find old testament saints that had the Spirit. There isn't that many. To say someone had the Spirit when the text doesn't say so is assumption.

[Alan]

I understand your post.

3 minutes ago, InSeasonOut said:

I agree Nicodemus was not saved, nor born again. Nicodemus had no idea what being born again was (John 3:4). Thank you.

While I also agree the Spirit convicts men of sin in any dispensation, this does not mean they are born of the Spirit, just because they are convicted of sin by the Spirit. (I don't think that's what you were saying...?) And Adam to the last man on earth is born of the Spirit? Are you included lost sinners? I think you are mis-interpreting my post. Just because the Holy Spirit convicts a person of their sins does not meant they will be saved.

Jesus said to the Pharisees (Jews)  in John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." They were hypocrites, and had many problems. The Pharisees were not saved nor born again. The disciples were saved because they were law keeping Jews, knew John's baptism, and followed Jesus. And John 3 says to be born again is to be born of the Spirit. Correct me if im wrong, but no where does it say they received the Spirit prior to Acts 2 (or even John 20:22 for that matter) I think you are confusing the work of the Holy Spirit and I never said the Pharisees were born again. They needed to be saved, or born again, but they resisted the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

Yet John's (the Baptist) parents were blameless (Luke 1:5-7 ; and in 1:15 John was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb). Still I wouldn't say John the Baptist was ever born again. He was saved, he was a law keeping Jew. But its difficult to find old testament saints that had the Spirit. There isn't that many. To say someone had the Spirit when the text doesn't say so is assumption. To say that the scripture has to say a person had to have the Spirit is also an assumption. It seems to me that unless the scripture says a person has the Spirit, or is filled with the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is doing this or that, you do not believe it.

You said, "The disciples were saved because they were law keeping Jews, knew John's baptism, and followed Jesus." That is an incorrect statement. the disciples were not saved by keeping the law nor did John's baptism save them. The Jews in the Old Testament, before the law and during the Law, were saved by faith in the grace of God. The Jews were never saved by keeping the law.

You said, "Still I wouldn't say John the Baptist was ever born again. He was saved, he was a law keeping Jew." As it was clearly brought out with the story of Nicodemus, being saved and born again is the same thing. also, you are implying that John the Baptist was saved due to keeping the Law as a Jew. If this is the correct interpretation of your wording than it is in error. The Jews, under the law, was not saved due to keeping the law.

InSeasonOut,

In my opinion, you have received some incorrect teaching concerning the Law of Moses, salvation in the Old Testament, the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testament, and the beginning of the church in the New Testament. Due to these incorrect teachings you are confused in some areas. In many areas, as we discussed in my devotion, and what I saw on your website, and your pre-tribulational rapture, we are in agreement. But, in the areas I just indicated, we are not. I do not want to cause these issues that we disagree in to hurt our relationship.

Alan

 

[DaveW]

Baptised WITH the Holy Ghost and Baptised OF the Holy Ghost are different concepts.

These things are NOT unimportant.

[InSeasonOut]

4 minutes ago, Alan said:

It seems to me that unless the scripture says a person has the Spirit, or is filled with the Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is doing this or that, you do not believe it.

And you hold that against me ? When I read the bible, why would I believe someone has the Spirit, when the bible doesn't say someone has the Spirit? :)

I cannot in all honesty make that assumption.

14 minutes ago, Alan said:

In my opinion, you have received some incorrect teaching concerning the Law of Moses, salvation in the Old Testament, the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testament, and the beginning of the church in the New Testament. Due to these incorrect teachings you are confused in some areas. In many areas, as we discussed in my devotion, and what I saw on your website, and your pre-tribulational rapture, we are in agreement. But, in the areas I just indicated, we are not. I do not want to cause these issues that we disagree in to hurt our relationship.

I appreciate that.

But yes I strongly believe the OT Jews were saved by faith and keeping the law. I'm aware of the position you hold. But that's another thread, and id rather put debates aside.

1 minute ago, DaveW said:

Baptised WITH the Holy Ghost and Baptised OF the Holy Ghost are different concepts.

These things are NOT unimportant.

Chapter and verse? Please elaborate

[Alan]

Ok.

[DaveW]

2 minutes ago, InSeasonOut said:

And you hold that against me ? When I read the bible, why would I believe someone has the Spirit, when the bible doesn't say someone has the Spirit? :)

I cannot in all honesty make that assumption.

I appreciate that.

But yes I strongly believe the OT Jews were saved by faith and keeping the law. I'm aware of the position you hold. But that's another thread, and id rather put debates aside.

Chapter and verse? Please elaborate

The Bible ONLY spraks of baptism with the Holy Spirit, your idea of Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something not spoken of in the Bible, but greatly spoken of by many false teachers today.

Your careless use of terms is concerning.

 

[InSeasonOut]

11 minutes ago, DaveW said:

The Bible ONLY spraks of baptism with the Holy Spirit, your idea of Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something not spoken of in the Bible, but greatly spoken of by many false teachers today.

Your careless use of terms is concerning.

Wow thanks for your kind words... like I said : please elaborate.

and give scripture!

*edit

Ok I see what you mean... all you had to say is the scriptures I gave above to your reply say "baptized with the Holy Ghost" - not "of"

That's an honest mistake I didn't realize. Haven't you had your share? But that's no reason to yoke me up with false teachers and say im careless.

The correct reading is "with" - but what is "of" ? I would figure it has the same meaning. If you know otherwise please share. To be honest your comment caused strife towards me, and I'm trying to be nice. You went about the wrong way in trying to correct a brother in Christ.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom

Edited June 6, 2017 by InSeasonOut

[DaveW]

Sigh..... I don't know what is hard to understand about this????

 

Mat_3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mat_28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mar_1:8  I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Luk_3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh_1:33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Act_1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act_11:16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

 

Not one of these verses - OR ANY OTHER VERSE, uses the terminology that YOU USE in this study.

I FIND THAT CONCERNING, when you are obviously taking upon yourself to teach on this forum. If you find that offensive, well, I apologise for causing offence, but I do not detract from the statement.

Someone who would TEACH on this forum needs to be CAREFUL, not CARELESS with their terms.

 

The difference between "of" and "With" in this subject is who is doing the baptising.

According to the BIBLE verses that use the terms Baptise and Holy Ghost together are all speaking of the Holy Ghost being the medium in which the subjects are baptised - "with", and not the Holy Ghost DOING the baptising - "of". As in "the Gospel OF Jesus Christ.

 

The Charismatics are the ones who push being baptised of or by the Holy Ghost. THE BIBLE DOESN'T.

But you use that phrase THROUGHOUT your study, indicating that it is a willing usage of that phrase, IN SPITE OF IT NOT BEING A BIBLE PHRASE, and in spite of there being a difference between the meaning of baptised with and baptised of.

 

I meant no direct offense, but I DO FIND THIS CONCERNING in one who is presuming to be a teacher on this forum.

 

 

 

[InSeasonOut]

22 minutes ago, InSeasonOut said:

*edit

Ok I see what you mean... all you had to say is the scriptures I gave above to your reply say "baptized with the Holy Ghost" - not "of"

That's an honest mistake I didn't realize. Haven't you had your share? But that's no reason to yoke me up with false teachers and say im careless.

The correct reading is "with" - but what is "of" ? I would figure it has the same meaning. If you know otherwise please share. To be honest your comment caused strife towards me, and I'm trying to be nice. You went about the wrong way in trying to correct a brother in Christ.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom

Yeah I noticed what you meant... I edited my post above....

2 minutes ago, DaveW said:

If you find that offensive, well, I apologise for causing offence, but I do not detract from the statement.

Thank you.

3 minutes ago, DaveW said:

I meant no direct offense, but I DO FIND THIS CONCERNING in one who is presuming to be a teacher on this forum

Again thanks, but like I said, an honest mistake... But I never claimed to be a teacher... in fact I said my post was a "rough draft" and at the beginning...

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 4:42 PM, InSeasonOut said:

im still new here and would like to gain more fellowship. That said, pardon me if these things im bringing up have been covered / answered. Still its good to revisit the doctrines of the Bible and understand where each of us believers are coming from and exhort one another, or correct error in meekness. ( James 3:13 ).

I posted this for fellowship, im new to this site and new to this position I hold in my post. I'm open to correction. But I asked for correction in meekness.

There's a right and a wrong way to go about correcting a brother. Many are rude and sarcastic, and theres a time and reason for that. But this is an area where we can disagree without calling eachother hereticks, and causing contention and strife and being prideful. There's enough of that.

[Jim_Alaska]

2 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

But yes I strongly believe the OT Jews were saved by faith and keeping the law. I'm aware of the position you hold. But that's another thread, and id rather put debates aside.

 Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 

 Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

[Joe Coley]

food for thought: God had to protect the tree in the garden or Adam could have eaten of it and had eternal life.

the disciples were not born again until they believed after his resurrection . in luke 24 they came to put spices on a dead body , not to witness his resurrection, he told them many times he would be taken , killed and rise again and they understood not the things he said.the spirit was given them in John for a special purpose not for salvation. he told Peter "after you are converted...."

a man is not save in the millinial reign by faith because faith will be site, for jesus will be seen sitting on the throne of david.

there is more than one gospel ,that is why Paul warned the church against preacing any other gospel ,,an angel is preaching the everlasting gospel in Rev. 14 and it is FEAR GOD AND GIVE HIM THE GLORY. FOR TRIBULATION.

In short , we tey to apply everything to the church today but it want fit! Paul was not saved the way we are saved ! no one in Matthew was saved like you are. they had there sin covered , not removed, You don't have to take a lamb to the slaughter once a year.

now come on guys the old test. saints went to paradise and many came up after Jesus resurrection and walked the streets of the city. 

Jesus was the only graduate in his first grade class because every boy his age was dead, so spiritually speaking every time the scribes and Pharisees saw him in the flesh , they saw the death , burial, and resurrection.

no one in the old test. was looking forward to the cross!

[Joe Coley]

maybe acts should have been spelled AX .

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Ahhhh.  How often the doctrine of regeneration (being born again) is misunderstood.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit IS the Person of the Godhead who administers the renewing work of regeneration upon a believer. (See John 3:3-8; Titus 3:4-7)  (Note: According to Titus 3:5 a believer is SAVED specifically BY "the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."  So then, if Old Testament believers were SAVED, how were they saved APART FROM "the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.")

On the other hand, the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (which occurs in an instant) upon a believer and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit (which occurs continually) within a believer is NOT the same work of the Holy Spirit.  Indeed, in this time of the New Testament the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit certainly does proceed out of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.  However, in the time of the Old Testament the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit could occur without the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, John 1:10-13 teaches that the disciples (believers) of our Lord Jesus Christ were indeed regenerated (born again, born of God) prior to the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.  The specific grammar of this passage speaks in the past tense.  The specific context of this passage speaks concerning the past period wherein our Lord Jesus Christ "came unto His own" during His earthly ministry of teaching and preaching unto the Jews.  Even so, in relation to this specific time period, John 1:11 indicates that most of the Jews overall did NOT receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Savior.  However, also in relation to this specific time period, John 1:12 declares that as many individuals among them who did receive Him (in that past tense period), "to them gave he power to become the sons of God."  Furthermore, John 1:13 teaches that this power to become a child of God was specifically administered upon these specific individuals in that specific time period in that they "were born [past tense] . . . of God."

[Jim_Alaska]

As I come to the forums this morning it is with a certain sense of incredulity and even sadness. I find it quite depressing when I consider how far from biblical truth some posts become. Perhaps my depression is magnified by the realization that the errors, distortions and misunderstanding of scripture are presented by those who call themselves Independent Baptists.

It makes me fear for and wonder what is being taught in Independent Baptist churches in these last days. If the error we see being put forth in these forums is being taught as truth and the "faith once delivered to the saints", then I fear for those who may be exposed to supposed men of God who have the responsibility to know and pass on biblical truth. I am reminded of the Apostle's admonition found in  1Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Perhaps it is best to end this line of thought before I depress others. I had even thought of not posting what I have written so far, but then thought that just maybe someone else having the same thoughts might be encouraged by knowing that they are not alone in their thinking.

I do understand that we are warned that in the last days there will come a falling away, but I find that reading it and actually experiencing it are two quite different things. Perhaps with God's help these realizations I experience this morning will encourage me to still fight on as admonished in: Jude 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Please pray for me this morning as I struggle with thoughts of this nature. I know I have strayed from the original topic, but felt that what I have written here is a result of some of the errors posted in this thread.