When the church started. Pentecost or Israel

[InSeasonOut]

I started this topic in response to one of the same topic, of when the church began. It had a lot of replies and instead of reading them all and replying with a large response or multiple comments I decided to use my time to write a study on this subject as im still new here and would like to gain more fellowship. That said, pardon me if these things im bringing up have been covered / answered. Still its good to revisit the doctrines of the Bible and understand where each of us believers are coming from and exhort one another, or correct error in meekness. ( James 3:13 ).

First, I've held the view for a while that the church began at Pentecost, when the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:4. - But there is also an interesting verse in John 20:22 where Jesus "...breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:" - This is not the baptism of the Holy Ghost. That happened at Acts 2. Note Acts 1:4-5 "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. " And 1 Corinth 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. " These scriptures and more show that the baptism of the Holy Ghost (the Spirit) is not with water.

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

No one is born again without the Spirit; the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The disciples were not born again until Acts 2. - The disciples were saved but not born again. There were Old Testament saints that had the Spirit, but they were not sealed, no eternal security, not saved by faith alone or by looking forward to the cross or the gospel (which Paul preached). Why? Because the Jews were under the law. (Galatians 3:21-25) Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Now, that's why I believed the church began at Pentecost. They didn't belong to Christ until they had the Spirit of Christ. Now that settles it - the church began at Pentecost - Right?

Wrong. The body of Christ began at Pentecost. - I already showed the answer above when I quoted 1 Corinth 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..."

But the church is the body of Christ, and the body of Christ is the church. Correct. But the church started before Pentecost (stay tuned) but the church became the body of Christ at Pentecost when they were baptized with the Spirit into Christ as members of his body.  (Hopefully I've at least ruled out the hyper-dispensation teaching by now that it began with Paul)

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Now this is where I mention that I believe in "progressive revelation", and now see 27-28 to be another example of it. - As I said the church was before Pentecost (but not as the body Christ) But these verses ; 27-28 cannot be "superimposed" backward into when Jesus first called the 12 disciples / apostles. Meaning God set forth first the apostles in the church at Pentecost. (the church became the body of Christ at Pentecost when they were sealed with the Spirit).

Still it must be said that the Lord Jesus Christ has preeminence as he the foundation and precious corner stone (of the church). Isaiah 28:16 . And Hebrews 3:1 says " Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; ".

For sake of time and space ill quickly reference 1 Corinthians 3:11 ; Colossians 1:18 ; Colossians 2:19 ; 1 Peter 2:16 ; (I came across Job 38:4-7 in my study here but im not sure what to do with it on this topic, if anything... moving on)

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Sorry Calvinists, you were not personally chosen before you were born to be predestined to heaven. God is no respecter of persons. What God "chose" was His Son to be the way of salvation, before the foundation of the world, so man can enter heaven.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I'll again repeat that I believe the body of Christ began at Pentecost, but when did the church begin?

Acts 7:37-39 " This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, "

Acts 7:44-45 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

Now this is where many Bible believers will separate the men from the boys. Hopefully no one here would ever change the text of the Bible (God's word ; KJV). Many "scholars" change the word "church" in the wilderness and remove the name Jesus from verse 45. (Please don't waste my time if you think this is a mistranslation)

To be honest I never personally studied Acts 7:38 "church in the wilderness". I've read it many times, but never spent time on, and even after all this, I need more time on it as this is really just a "rough draft". Basically 7:37 is a prophecy fulfilled in Jesus. 7:38 "This is he (Jesus).." The church in the wilderness is clearly Israel. The church in the wilderness is not the body of Christ. There is to be a distinction made here between the two, until Pentecost. (Church becomes body of Christ when baptized with the Spirit).

7:39 mentions Egypt, - the church in the wilderness (Israel) was an "assembly" that was "called out of Egypt". - Progressive revelation shows that now we as Christians (in Christ ; the body of Christ) are the church, an "assembly" that is "called out of the world". (Egypt being a type of the world).

I think my error of thinking the church started at Pentecost was because I was making "the church" and "the body of Christ" the same thing... and they are... now. The church started in the wilderness with Israel - The Body of Christ started at Pentecost with the apostles (Israelites).

Acts 7:45 Correctly says "Jesus". - All modern versions change this to "Joshua". Which Joshua, is a 'type' of Jesus Christ (second advent). The names are similar, as Joshua came from the Old Testament Hebrew > to English. And the name Jesus came from the New Testament Greek > to English. Same with Hebrews 4:8 - This is not a mistranslation it is advanced revelation. Joshua is a type of the Lord Jesus. Same with Hebrew 2:12 which i'll quote

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

The church here is the church in the wilderness. They sang the song of Moses (Exodus 15:1 ff) And Israel will sing it again in the time of Jacobs trouble (7 years of tribulation).

Jesus is the captain of their salvation. Joshua worshipped Jesus as the captain of the LORD's host in Joshua 5:13-15 (This is he, that was in the church of the wilderness - 7:38)

Hebrews 2:12 is a quote from Psalm 22:22 except the church is called a "congregation".

I think Acts 7:38 could be used to show how the church didn't replace Israel, because it began with Israel. These are not 2 different churches. Jesus did not go to the Gentiles, he only went to Israel. The disciples were all Jewish Hebrew Israelites, they were the church during the ministry of Jesus on earth. (not yet the body).

Matthew 16:18-19a And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven (reference to the millennial kingdom). Not the keys of the church. (Paul revealed the mystery of the body of Christ).

It's been well noted that "I will build..." is future tense. And I agree... its so future tense that this refers to Israel in "the tribulation". (I will admit that I heard this taught but didn't agree with it, I didn't understand it until today.)

Does the church go through the tribulation? Yeah the church in the wilderness, AKA Israel. - The body of Christ (Christians, in Christ) do not.

Some pre-tribbers (im one) have taught the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 , its not , the rapture is in 4:1 and that is proof the church does not go thru Daniels 70th week / or "the tribulation" (TOJT). ... I can't say that anymore. I actually believe the 7 churches of Rev, 2-3 are 7 literal churches in "the tribulation". (Each having an angel over them).

I do believe the book of Hebrews is written to literal Hebrews for the 7 years of tribulation. It mentions the church in 2:12 ; and 12:23

And James when he writes he clearly says in 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Obviously the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 7).  Yet James speaks of the church in 5:14 , Therefore many post tribbers say Christians go thru "the trib"

Many Hyperdispensationalists say Hebrews all thru Revelation is only for the trib, but this is extreme division. There is much instruction and learning to know in Hebrews but it must be rightly divided and understood that passages like Hebrews 6:4-6 is not for the body of Christ.

Basically what im saying with that is, Christians are raptured ; the body of Christ , the church. But by definition the church is still being built as many will be saved in the 7 year tribulation but these saints do not become part of the body of Christ.

In closing, the church started with Israel in the wilderness, - church as in congregation or assembly, called out of Egypt. Israel is God's chosen nation/people. The Messiah Jesus went to Israel and called twelve disciples/apostles for his church. The nation rejected and crucified their Messiah (bringing in the New Testament according to Hebrews 9:15-17) The church (Israel) became the body of Christ when baptized with the Spirit (at Pentecost). Peter and others preached to Jews and after they martyred Stephen, God saved Paul to preach and be the apostle of the Gentiles.

Jesus said in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jews and Gentiles in one body.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Jew and Gentile)

2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

There was no body of Christ until Jesus was crucified. Only calvary made it possible for there to be "one body"... and no one was in the one body until Pentecost.

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The church was placed into or converted into the body of Christ. (Ephesians 1:22-23)

Thanks for reading. I know its long and I was kind of everywhere... im sure it could be organized better and "fine tuned". I just wrote all this today and am new to this position and this is where I ended up... so i'd like to hear your thoughts. God bless.

-Jake.

[weary warrior]

To me, it's so very, very simple. The church is the body of Christ. Yes? - Eph 1:22-23

When Christ was on earth, He walked around in his own body, so that was ... the body of Christ.

So the church, the body of Christ, did not come to be until Christ and his ... body ... left. Otherwise, there would be two bodies of Christ, and that's just dumb.

John 14:26

John 15:26

John 16:7

And of course, II Corinthians 5:20-21 and John 14:12 - We the church are here, by the power of His Spirit, in Christ's stead, and we couldn't exist to be in his stead as long as he was still here.

Don't over think it. It's not rocket science.

[jamesduncan]

Please do not leave out the Old Testament. This is where Christ got all of his inspiration’s.

I believe He mentions the Ten Commandments more than once or twice.

[DaveW]

1 hour ago, weary warrior said:

To me, it's so very, very simple. The church is the body of Christ. Yes? - Eph 1:22-23

When Christ was on earth, He walked around in his own body, so that was ... the body of Christ.

So the church, the body of Christ, did not come to be until Christ and his ... body ... left. Otherwise, there would be two bodies of Christ, and that's just dumb.

John 14:26

John 15:26

John 16:7

And of course, II Corinthians 5:20-21 and John 14:12 - We the church are here, by the power of His Spirit, in Christ's stead, and we couldn't exist to be in his stead as long as he was still here.

Don't over think it. It's not rocket science.

Mark 14:22
(22)  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
 

???????? how could it possibly have been His body if His body was before them passing out his body?????????

[weary warrior]

9 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Mark 14:22
(22)  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
 

???????? how could it possibly have been His body if His body was before them passing out his body?????????

It was symbolic, 1 Corinthians 11:26. A remembrance of his body that was broken for us. I know full well you do not hold the doctrine of transubstantiation. I think you must be testing me with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

If, however, we do not believe that the church is his body now on earth, doing the will of the Father, lets just pack it up and go home. We are of all men most miserable and this thing we call "church" would be nothing but man-made, money-making institutions doing charitable work..

[InSeasonOut]

3 hours ago, weary warrior said:

When Christ was on earth, He walked around in his own body, so that was ... the body of Christ

Yeah, but no one was in Christ until Acts 2, when they were baptized with the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

As if my original post wasn't long enough, there is something I forgot.

It's been well said that Acts is a "transition" book. Showing the church in transition. I'm sure many are familiar with this so I won't expound on it.

[InSeasonOut]

3 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

The church here is the church in the wilderness. They sang the song of Moses (Exodus 15:1 ff) And Israel will sing it again in the time of Jacobs trouble (7 years of tribulation).

The reference to the song of Moses in the tribulation is Revelation 15:3

[OLD fashioned preacher]

22 hours ago, jamesduncan said:

Please do not leave out the Old Testament. This is where Christ got all of his inspiration’s.

I believe He mentions the Ten Commandments more than once or twice.

Jesus didn't "get His inspiration" from the O.T. - He predates it!

He said "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)

He is the Creator (John 1:1-5,10-14; Colossians  1:14-16)

 

[swathdiver]

Here we go again with this hyper-dispensationalism, Ruckmanism heresies...

[Joe Coley]

7 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Here we go again with this hyper-dispensationalism, Ruckmanism heresies...

Peter Ruckman was not hyper-dispensational he was moderate! he preached against hyper. if we would do what God said and rightly divide the word of truth we would all be moderate, I learned right division before I ever knew of Dr. Ruckman .frankly my brother you should not speak of matters you are not sure of. with kindness, pastor coley

[InSeasonOut]

12 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Here we go again with this hyper-dispensationalism, Ruckmanism heresies...

Were you saying I took this position? I clearly spoke against Hyper-d... They teach the church / body started with Paul. I clearly do not.

[Alan]

InSeasonOut,

I made a separate thread called, "The Beginning of the New Testament church," in order to give a more concise statement concerning the issue of when the church was started.

I would like to ask just a questions concerning your lesson.

1. You stated, "No one is born again with out the Spirit; the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The disciples were not born again until Acts 2. - The disciples were saved but not born again." That statement is in error. Being born again is being saved. Because you are error at that point you conclude that the church started at Pentecost and are erroneous in some other areas.

The Lord Jesus clearly rebuked Nicodemus for not being 'born again.' And, the Lord Jesus clearly rebuked Nicodemus, that as a leader in Israel, he should have been 'born again.' At that time Nicodemus was not saved, not born-again, and was not born of the Spirit.

I would suggest a close reading of John 3:1-21, the Psalms, and the life of Abraham, and the prophets. Being 'saved,' or 'born-again,' is the same in either Testament.

Alan

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Alan
grammer

[InSeasonOut]

10 minutes ago, Alan said:

I would like to ask just a questions concerning your lesson.

1. You stated, "No one is born again with out the Spirit; the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The disciples were not born again until Acts 2. - The disciples were saved but not born again." That statement is in error. Being born again is being saved. Because you are error at that point you conclude that the church started at Pentecost and are erroneous in some other areas.

When the Lord Jesus clearly rebuked Nicodemus for not being 'born again.' And, the Lord Jesus clearly rebuked Nicodemus, that as a leader in Israel, he should have been 'born again.' At that time Nicodemus was not saved, not born-again, and was not born of the Spirit.

Well, you forgot to ask your question, but I think you were asking what I meant by my statement.

Which part(s) is in error? No one is born again without the Spirit? Or The disciples were saved but not born again?

[Alan]

You are correct. I was asking you what you meant by your statement.

The error was was both; the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of all individuals to convict them of their sins and their need of salvation.  I was trying to refer you to John 3:1-21 Let me use a verse from that passage. We need to remember that Nicodemus was a religious leader in Israel, a Jew, who knew about Abraham, the law, the prophets; but he was never saved was not born-again.

Verse 5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Anybody, from Adam, to the last man on the face of this earth, is born by 'the Spirit." The "Spirit," is clearly the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is convicts men, in any dispensation, of their need of salvation.

Except for Judas Iscariot, all of the apostles of the Lord Jesus were saved; born again. To state that the apostles, disciples, were saved, but not born again, is an error. There in not one word in Acts 2, nor even the hint, that the disciples were not born again. To use 1 Corinthians 12:13 as a text for the belief that the disciples, or apostles, before Acts 2 were saved, but not born again, is not 'rightly dividing' the scriptures.

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveW]

Inseasonout,

One point of error upon which you base your arguments and which you use repeatedly is the phrase "Baptism of the Holy Ghost". 

This specific phrase is not found in the Bible anywhere as far as I can see.

I have a hard time accepting much else of your argument when you put so much store in an unbiblical phrase.