The Spiritual Progression of Human Souls.

[John Young]

I am currently working on an article about God's work with souls from birth to heaven. This is a working draft of the introduction/ summery.

 

The Spiritual progression of human souls
(Job 10:9-19, Psalm 139:13-16)

 

 

It is a misconception that a soul is either a child of God or a child of the devil at birth, automatically destined to be saved or lost, or born a sinner.  Rather for all of us it is a growth process. All start out innocent and then there is a process of growth that each soul must go thorough before one becomes a saint or sinner. (John 9:1-3, Romans 9:10-12)

The reason no soul can be a sinner or child of the devil before birth is because the birthing process is wholly controlled by God and only God can create life, giving life and a spirit to every living creature.  The devil has no ability to create any life nor can he control the physical birth process of the womb. (Psalm 104:30, John 1:4-5, 1:9, Acts 17:25)

Each human is created by God from conception thru the whole birthing process. He chooses the family (both genetic and spiritual state) and the time of visitation for each soul. Some will receive favor by being born into righteous families but others into wicked families. The righteous children will have more of a chance then the wicked family’s children of accepting the Lord’s salvation. The wicked family’s children have the greater chance of losing their innocents the fastest. But all are commanded to follow God. (1 Corinthians 7:14)

Unfortunately, from the time of Adam all flesh has been corrupted by the sinful actions of people and is currently in a fallen state. The devil uses the lust of the flesh and the lust of a fallen world to tempt the soul to sin. Therefore it is guaranteed that all souls will soon become bound to sin and quickly lose their innocents. Innocents is lost at the moment a child fully knows to do good but knowingly does wrong anyway. At that point the person moves from being innocent and safe to being a child of wrath and disobedience. (Genesis 6:12, Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 5:12-13, Romans 7:9, James 1:15, James 4:17, 2 Peter 1:4, Ephesians 2:1-10; 5:6, Colossians 3:5-7)

At the time of visitation each soul (both innocent and disobedient) will have a chance to receive salvation unto the perfecting of the soul, and the quickening and sealing of their sprit in the new birth (making them a son of God) by the Holy Spirit. (Isaiah 55, Luke 19:9, John 3, 2 Corinthians 6:2)

If any reject God at the visitation then they will be dammed because of their decision to choose their own lustful life over that of receiving God’s quickening. If they in full knowledge continually reject God’s will and His salvation and continue down the path of destruction they can, by giving themselves wholly over to sin and cutting themselves off wholly from God’s call, become “children of the devil” (doing the devils spiritual work) and “Sons of Belial” (wholly worthless to God). Both unable to be redeemed, in this life or the next. These “children” will not just sin like the “children of disobedience” but will actively work against the cause of Christ; many even claiming to be Christians and seeking positions in God’s church, yet in full knowledge of their wickedness are content to live in and make excuse for sin and working against the righteous authorities who seek to help them. (Deuteronomy 13:12-18, Judges 19-20, 1 Samuel 2:12, 10:26-27, 2 Samuel 20:1, 1 Kings 21, 2 Chronicles 13:7, John 8:43-45, Romans 1, 2 Corinthians 6:14-18,  Hebrews 2:1-3,  2 Peter 2, 1 John 3, Jude 1)

 

 

The innocent will go to heaven (albeit perhaps in an incomplete state) because they have not yet sinned and the devil has nothing of to accuse them. The Children of wrath will go to hell because they are condemned under their own disobedience to doing what is right. The children of Belial because they have wholly shut themselves off from God and seek the pleasure of their flesh. The children of the devil because they in full knowledge of God’s righteousness and salvation reject it out right and actively seek to infiltrate and destroy, from within and without all of God’s work.

 

 

At the end of life those that have done pure good will be raise to life and those who have rebelled by sin cast into hell. All have come short in the process of life on their own so need to be placed in Christ who, thru his redeeming works, uncorrupted and good state will, wholly cleans from sin all who have faith in Him. (Daniel 12:1-3, John 5:24-25, John 6:47, Romans 3:23, Romans 6:1-12, Romans 8:1-4 Hebrews 4:1, Ephesians 5:25-27, 1 John 1:9, 3:9)

 

 

INNOCENTS: KNOWLAGE: PERFECTION: GLORIFICATION:

 

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Psalm 139:14-16 -- "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

Psalm 51:5 -- "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Genesis 8:21 -- "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

Romans 5:12 -- "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Romans 5:18-19 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.  For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

2 Corinthians 5:14 -- "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead."

Ephesians 2:1-3 -- "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Isaiah 53:6 -- "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Romans 3:9-12 -- "What then?  Are we better than they?  No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

[swathdiver]

22 hours ago, John Young said:

Therefore it is guaranteed that all souls will soon become bound to sin and quickly lose their innocents. Innocents is lost at the moment

Innocence

 

Nice work thus far.

[Alan]

Very unusual title and lesson.

22 hours ago, John Young said:

It is a misconception that a soul is either a child of God or a child of the devil at birth, automatically destined to be saved or lost, or born a sinner. 

I think the thrust of the lesson is to refute this Calvinistic belief.

22 hours ago, John Young said:

The innocent will go to heaven (albeit perhaps in an incomplete state) because they have not yet sinned and the devil has nothing of to accuse them.

I think this thought should be carefully considered.

Woe is me! for I am at a loss to comment further!

 

[John Young]

24 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

Innocence

I do understand that this is perhaps the more modern way to spell the word but I decided to go with the more biblical spelling in case I decide to quote a verse about "Innocent blood". Thinks for the check though!

Edited June 4, 2016 by John Young

[John Young]

42 minutes ago, Alan said:

Very unusual title and lesson.

I think the thrust of the lesson is to refute this Calvinistic belief.

I think this thought should be carefully considered.

Woe is me! for I am at a loss to comment further!

 

Thanks! Its more of a goal to track our progression through life from the biblical perspective of the soul. Not necessarily just to refute Calvinism or the like. Though it definitely appears that I will be refuting several reformation and catholic theologies. However, it is defiantly in its ruff stages and is my attempt to get it out on paper. The reason I got it out as is was so I can get feed back before going further with the research.

Typically we approach the progression from the start of fallen physical man but that view often leaves much unsaid and ignores many facts about how God starts each life and what God himself says and does for each one of us. The common view pretty much makes God the creator of sinners but I believe the biblical view as summed up in Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

Edited June 4, 2016 by John Young

[John Young]

22 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Many verses to consider, Thank you brother! I'll try to give a few short thoughts to each in regards to my OP.

Psalm 139:14-16 -- "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

The "substance" here, I think, is the material elements God used to comprise David's body. "Unperfect" here is reference to when he was not yet made physically. I do not think it to be a reference his level of sin or righteousness. Before he was formed God had written him in to His Book. "God's book/s" in which he writes us all in before he even creates us is an interesting bible topic......

Psalm 51:5 -- "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

As part of his prayer to God for sinning against Him with Bathsheba and Uriah. I believe he is referring to the environment of which he was born into. The "Iniquity" is what he learned and "shaped" him as a child and Sin in this verse is his mothers not his.

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

"ESTRANGED, participle passive Withdrawn; withheld; alienated."

I agree. The evil quickly teach their children to rebellion and sin against God. They practically have no chance.

Genesis 8:21 -- "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

"From his youth" I agree.

Romans 5:12 -- "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

This verse says "for that all have sinned" but not "all have sin". Death will pass upon all men because of their sin. Physical death is because of Adam's sin but Spiritual death is because of our own sin. 

Romans 5:18-19 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.  For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Amen. Not made "with sin" but "made sinners". The sin of Adam made the following generations to sin

2 Corinthians 5:14 -- "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead."

The context of this chapter is about living in our bodies for Christ. Our physical bodies are dead in Adam and our mortal bodies and will pass away. Christ died so that we could live in a heavenly body. 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 

Ephesians 2:1-3 -- "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

I agree they are dead in their trespasses and sins. Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Isaiah 53:6 -- "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Yes we have all turned.

Romans 3:9-12 -- "What then?  Are we better than they?  No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

This verse gives good reasons why they are not righteous. 

It is not my intention to imply that "men are born basically good" but rather that our souls are in a neutral state; born into a world influenced by the devil and corrupted by the sin and wickedness of Men, who followed after the lusts and desires of their flesh. I do not believe that God made us with sin built into our souls but because of the sinful state of the world all learn quickly to sin and no one can escape it in a neutral state for long. They still need to be sealed by faith in Christ. Unfortunately all learn sin before faith.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Edited June 4, 2016 by John Young

[Jim_Alaska]

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

 Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 
 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 
 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1. Adam was the first of a species called Man. He was created sinless, but he sinned. The first of any species determines its nature.

2. Because of his sin, Adam passed on his sinful nature to all that came after him.

3. A dog is not a dog because he barks, he barks because he is a dog, it is his nature to bark.

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

1. According to this verse, who are estranged from the womb? The unborn child is wicked by his nature.

2. Following this train of thought, the unborn child is not wicked because he sinned, he was not yet born. But once born he committed sin simply because he was wicked from his conception.

[Alan]

13 hours ago, John Young said:

The reason I got it out as is was so I can get feed back before going further with the research.

With this intention in mind, I think we can take this whole conversation and learn.

 

7 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

 Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 
 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 
 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1. Adam was the first of a species called Man. He was created sinless, but he sinned. The first of any species determines its nature.

2. Because of his sin, Adam passed on his sinful nature to all that came after him.

3. A dog is not a dog because he barks, he barks because he is a dog, it is his nature to bark.

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

1. According to this verse, who are estranged from the womb? The unborn child is wicked by his nature.

2. Following this train of thought, the unborn child is not wicked because he sinned, he was not yet born. But once born he committed sin simply because he was wicked from his conception.

Jim states the issue pretty clearly.

Alan

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 5:00 AM, Alan said:

I think the thrust of the lesson is to refute this Calvinistic belief.

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 5:43 AM, John Young said:

Thanks! Its more of a goal to track our progression through life from the biblical perspective of the soul . . . .

Typically we approach the progression from the start of fallen physical man but that view often leaves much unsaid and ignores many facts about how God starts each life and what God himself says and does for each one of us. The common view pretty much makes God the creator of sinners but I believe the biblical view as summed up in Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

And I believe that the primary thrust of this lesson is to teach that human individuals are conceived and born into this world, NOT already with a sinful spiritual nature, but with an "innocent" spiritual nature -- NOT having a spirit that is already "dead in trespasses and sins," but with a spirit that is "innocent" of sin until the first willful choice of sinful unrighteousness, whereby that individual THEN becomes a child of disobedience with a spirit that is "dead in trespasses and sins."

Brother Young, am I correct in my understanding thereof?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar

[John81]

On 6/4/2016 at 10:36 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

 Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 
 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 
 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1. Adam was the first of a species called Man. He was created sinless, but he sinned. The first of any species determines its nature.

2. Because of his sin, Adam passed on his sinful nature to all that came after him.

3. A dog is not a dog because he barks, he barks because he is a dog, it is his nature to bark.

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

1. According to this verse, who are estranged from the womb? The unborn child is wicked by his nature.

2. Following this train of thought, the unborn child is not wicked because he sinned, he was not yet born. But once born he committed sin simply because he was wicked from his conception.

Indeed this is how I've heard the subject preached upon by every Baptist pastor I've heard preach on the matter.

 

[John Young]

On 6/4/2016 at 8:36 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. 
This sounds good but most if not all scripture teaches the opposite. We are all sinners because we have all sinned.(Romans 5:12) I agree that we are all "under sin" (Galatians 3:21-23) because of Adam's fall but that is not the same as being "born a sinner".

 Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;  2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:  3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

It is my understanding that the death referenced in this verse occurred not at or before birth but at the time we transgressed the Law. (Romans 7:5-14)

1. Adam was the first of a species called Man. He was created sinless, but he sinned. The first of any species determines its nature.

2. Because of his sin, Adam passed on his sinful nature to all that came after him.

I do not disagree with the fact that we get a "sin nature" of sorts (a tendency in the flesh to lust which in turn is prone to nurture sin) but that still is not Sin of itself and does not cause death until it is acted upon by the soul. 

3. A dog is not a dog because he barks, he barks because he is a dog, it is his nature to bark.

I would like to clarify that God did not create us "sinners" but we quickly became sinners because we were born to People who are sinners.

Psalm 58:3 -- "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

1. According to this verse, who are estranged from the womb? The unborn child is wicked by his nature.

This whole Psalm is about the Wicked in heart. It is not about ALL children. Estranged means to be separated from. The wicked are estranged from God (their creator) at birth being taught to speak lies by their wicked parents and wicked society. Paul alludes to that when he advises the saved woman to stay with her lost husband for the sake of him and their children's souls in 1 Corinthians 7:14.

2. Following this train of thought, the unborn child is not wicked because he sinned, he was not yet born. But once born he committed sin simply because he was wicked from his conception.

I'm sorry but there is no verse that says children are wicked from the time of conception. Otherwise it would be God that is making a sinner and that is not biblical (Job 10:9-19). This verse does not say "before" or "in" the womb. Rather it says "from". When the child of the wicked are born FROM the womb they "go astray" as soon as they are born because are taught to be wicked. Speaking is a learned trait. It is not a thing that we are born being able to do.

It is similar to the Palestinian children of today who are taught even before they can speak to hate Israel and Jews. Israeli Prime minister Netanyahu speaks to the same facts of Psalm 58 in the video I linked below.

http://www.israelvideonetwork.com/when-bibi-netanyahu-is-warning-you-about-this-its-time-to-pay-attention/

https://player.vimeo.com/video/168903753

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by John Young

[John Young]

On 6/6/2016 at 0:33 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

And I believe that the primary thrust of this lesson is to teach that human individuals [souls] are conceived and born into this world, NOT already with a sinful spiritual nature, but with an "innocent" spiritual nature -- NOT having a spirit that is already "dead in trespasses and sins," but with a spirit that is "innocent" of sin until the first willful choice of sinful unrighteousness, whereby that individual [soul] THEN becomes a child of disobedience with a spirit that is "dead in trespasses and sins."

Brother Young, am I correct in my understanding thereof?

Pretty much. It is my contention that sin is not natural to the spirit or soul but has its start in the weakness of the flesh. Being born innocent in mind we quickly learn from our parents and those around us the nature of fallen flesh and soon follow.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

James 1:14-16 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Edited June 8, 2016 by John Young

[Alan]

John Young,

I copied down the information on your initial post and probably will comment on it after I developed my thoughts. As you said that it was just a working draft I just wanted to let you know so you could review it as I would like to discuss some of it along with the scriptures used.

1 hour ago, John Young said:

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. 
This sounds good but most if not all scripture teaches the opposite. We are all sinners because we have all sinned.(Romans 5:12) I agree that we are all "under sin" (Galatians 3:21-23) because of Adam's fall but that is not the same as being "born a sinner".

 Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;  2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:  3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

It seems to me that when you referenced Ephesians 2:1 (instead of being in disagreement with we were not born sinners), you were in agreement with we were born sinners: all men are by nature sinners, children of wrath, and condemened. Once an individual realizes he is a sinner then he can be saved.

Alan

[John Young]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

It seems to me that when you referenced Ephesians 2:1 (instead of being in disagreement with we were not born sinners), you were in agreement with we were born sinners: all men are by nature sinners, children of wrath, and condemned. Once an individual realizes he is a sinner then he can be saved.

The nature, in the broadest sense, is the natural, physical, or material world or universe that we are born into. I agree that we have a tendency towards sin because are all born under sin and are influenced by it to quickly fall from innocents but I do not see where the scriptures say that souls are sinners before or by mere fact of birth alone. For example a soul could be "born an Englishman" and be influenced by English culture from birth but that does not mean their composition before or at birth is different then someone "born a German" just because of the location or culture. In one sense of the term a soul is "born a sinner" because that soul is born into a nature corrupted by sin but that soul is not born a sinner in the sense that God (who has control over the whole creation process) caused him to be created with sin built in.

A child in innocents had not developed yet to know anything about sin or righteousness. He only knows the natural cravings. Over time he learns what good and bad is and then when he comes into true knowledge of humanity's sinful state and realizes that he is to be righteous then he can call on the LORD or go into disobedience. But he is not able to stay innocent after God gives him understanding.

My goal with this study is to rectify the "sin nature" doctrine so that it takes into account the "age of accountability" doctrine and the fact that scripture teaches that God gives all spirits and creates the child in the womb.

Edited June 8, 2016 by John Young