The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

[Invicta]

Firstly I would remind you that some of the symbols in Revelation have two meanings. For instance the Seven heads represent seven kings and also seven hills.  The witnesses represent two   items also.  1st candlesticks, 2nd Olive trees.   I have already shown that the candlesticks are churches.  If we look back to Zech. we see that the olive trees feed the candlestick. The fact that these are always before the Lord means that God will always have faithful ministers to teach his people with the guiding of the Holy Spirit. In Zech there was only one candlestick but being fed with oil from two pipes.  Two being the minimum number of witnesses in the law.  In Revelation the witness is kept going through the dark ages of the great tribulation of the church from the papacy.  I suppose you have been taught that in the dark ages 50,000,000, to 100,000,000 died under the various papal campaigns and crusades.  Foxe names many of those whose names were known at his time but there were millions more since then such as the Huguenots, the Camisards, the Albigenses, the Cathars, the Bogomils, the millions who suffered under the inquisition in Spain, Germany, Poland, even in Mexico,  and no doubt in other S American countries, wherever Catholicism held sway.  Remember that the book of Revelation is signified, taught in sins or figures is another word the scripture uses in other places. During all this time the Lord had his witnesses, two being the legal minimum, not necessarily two, but just enough to keep the witness going through the dark ages.  Then one day, the church was apparently dead.  The witnesses were dead.  The little horn has made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; and worn out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. He has worn down the saintsRev 11:7. 13:7, 17:14.  

It is late now, I will come back to this sometime.

[Jim_Alaska]

Invicta,

 

You gave your interpretation concerning this twice in this thread, but you neglected to answer Sister Ronda's questions.

[Critical Mass]

On 2/28/2016 at 7:29 AM, beameup said:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  Revelation 11:3

 

Malachi 4:4-5 Mentions Moses and Elijah:

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Yup. The same two who met Jesus and the disciples on the mount of transfiguration. Also, the miracles performed in Revelation by the "two candlesticks" are like those Moses and Elijah performed. The two represent "the law and the prophets" which will be back into play during the Great Tribulation.

[Invicta]

22 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Invicta,

 

You gave your interpretation concerning this twice in this thread, but you neglected to answer Sister Ronda's questions.

I was intending to include my answer in my next post, but I have been studying the chapter and find it is a much larger subject than I thought and was intending to answer in my next post, however as I am hoping to take the points in the prophecy in order I will put the answer in its place in order.  However if I find the task may mbetoo great for me and I probably will, I will make a separate reply.  

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Invicta

[Ian Day]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 4:09 AM, Critical Mass said:

Yup. The same two who met Jesus and the disciples on the mount of transfiguration. Also, the miracles performed in Revelation by the "two candlesticks" are like those Moses and Elijah performed. The two represent "the law and the prophets" which will be back into play during the Great Tribulation.

We are unlikely to come to an agreement regarding interpretation as to the future identities of the two, BUT
what can we apply as practical instruction for ourselves & our generation while we wait & work & watch & pray in expectation of our Lord's return to a world ever condemned by the Law & the Prophets?

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

 

[beameup]

[on the road to Emmaus, Jesus speaking]  Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.  Luke 24:25-27

[Invicta]

MY TWO WITNESSESS

3 ¶  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth 4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

In scripture, witnesses always refer to personages, not to inanimate objects like the two testaments or the law and the prophets as some would claim.

The first thing I wish to note about these witnesses, is that Christ calls the My Witnesses. Witnesses who would testify to Lord Jesus Christ, His Glory, His Grace and Salvation.  This does not mean that they would not also testify against the prevailing apostasy of their day, but their grand mission was to testify to Christ.  In Revelation 12:17 we read 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, undoubtedly the same personages. have already drawn our attention to them being two candlesticks and two olive trees.  In Zech. 4:14 we read that the two olive branches are also two anointed ones that stand before the Lord of the whole earth, but the margin dds “Heb. Sons of oil.”  From the union of the two symbols I conclude that they include ministers, or gospel preachers as well as the churches or communities of believers taught by them.

The number of the witnesses given as two shows that the church was vastly reduced from its complete stage in Rev 1:20 when there were seven churches, the number of completeness, to the minimum number of two witnesses required under the law. 

We next note the time of their witnessing and their condition.  Firstly they were given power by the Lord. 3 ¶  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. During the great tribulation of the church under the papists, their enemies often said that they seemed to have power to defy the flames and other tortures. Next, the duration of their prophecy.  As we see the candlesticks and olive trees were representative, so the days are representative of a greater period.  Our forefathers took the days as representing years as in the ‘seventy weeks’. That is  1260 years. Next we note that they were to prophecy in sackcloth, the universal sign of mourning, as we see by Daniel, Morecai and the people of Nineva, as were as the prophets, as their condition was usually one of trial, who were often vexed about the apostasy of their day.  So we see the witnesses were mourning for their co-workers and loved ones as well as the developing apostasy of their days.

Next we note the avenging power given to them against their enemies..

 5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 

Fire.  As in Jeremiah 5:14  Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them. God’s fiery judgments on their persecutors.

Lack of rain. As in Isaiah 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.7  For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.  As in Amos 8: 11 ¶  Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: 12  And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Still to come, Rev 11:7-12

[Ian Day]

David - is that your own study, or are you quoting someone?

 

[Invicta]

Revelation 11:7-12

7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Before we look at the above verses I would like to refer to the time of the beginning of their testimony. 

Revelation 12: 14.  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We see here that the period when the woman, the church, was nourished in the wilderness is the same as that of the witnesses’ testimony. The occasion was the flood coming from the dragon’s mouth, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration.  The woman fled to the wilderness, the mountains and deserts, while the beast made war upon her

13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Again we see the beast making was with the saints for the same period those whose names were not in the book of life would worship him. The same as the little horn speaking great things in Dan 7.

Revelation 7:12

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; 12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The great problem with verse 7 is the word ‘finished’.  We know that they could not have finished their testimony before the beast made war on them because their testimony lasted throughout the period. Commentators in the past have suggested various meanings, such as “When they shall be about finishing” or “Whilst they shall perform their testimony” or “completed”.  I would perhaps think we could say ‘finalised’.  Their message was finalised in the 13^th century when the papacy reached its most degraded stage and the saints recognised it as Antichrist.  This was about the beginning of the 13^th century.

Then the beast made war with them unleashing the inquisition and other murders.  It had always persecuted the saints but from that time is was revitalized with devilish power.  He overcame them and killed them. In 1489, the Bohemian witness-churches sent deputies to search throughout Europe for other kindred witnessing churches, but they found none.  The Waldensians and other witnessing churches had been silenced by the crusades and inquisition. Others had accepted the mass[HR1] .  The Bohemians passed a resolution in their synod that if anywhere God should raise up faithful teachers of the church, they would make common cause with them.  Soon after, the Bohemian Brethren themselves were extinguished.  The witnesses were dead. Milner wrote “The XVIth opened with a prospect of all others the most gloomy, in the eyes of every true Christian.”  Mosheim adds “At the commencement of this century, no danger seemed to threaten the Roman Pontiffs.”  Cuninghame said “Europe reposed in the deep sleep of spiritual death. “ The Encylopaedia Britannica  “Everything    was quiet, every heretic exterminated: and the whole Christian world supinely acquiesced in the enormous absurdities inculcated by the Romish Church: …….”   

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  Not Jerusalem. Our Lord was crucifed outside Jerusalem, as was Stephen dragged outside the city and stoned.  Rome was the Great City, or Megatropolis, or greater Rome where they still claim to sacrifice the Lord in the mass.  This is confirmed by the angel in chapter 17:18, where the great city was the one ruling over the earth at that time. It is called the Great City in contrast to the Holy City,  .Rev 11:2.

Lie in the street or broad place; presumably equivalent of the open place in Jewish towns where judgment was dispensed. In this case the forum of the anti Christian empire. As Gibbon records, “the nations began once more to seek, on the banks of the Tiber the kings, the laws, and the oracles of their fate.”

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.  Just at this time there was the Lateran council 1512-1517 where deputies met from all over the Roman world under Popes Julius II then LeoX, One orator of the council, Baltassar del Rio, said “The meeting place in the Lateran church was the central area, or broad Place of the Western world. “ We see from history that Rome often forbade burial to heretics.  In Ireland in the middle of the following century there was an attack by Catholics on Protestants led by priests who warned them that their pains were only the beginning of their pains in hell and the only burial of ‘heretics’ was the burial of the living.  In the 6^th session of the council April 27 2015 it stated that the heretics intended were the remaining Hussites.  In December 2013 a charge was issued summoning the dissidents to appear before the next session to appear and plead before the council session, May 5^th following. Did they appear before their accusers, their Lord’s enemies, as did the Waldensians at Albi and Pamiers, Wicliff and Cobham in England, Huss and Jerome at the Constance Council and later, Luther at Augsburg and Worms?  Alas No!  All was quiet!  Throughout the breadth of the land, the witnesses were silenced.  (I will make a note later)  It was announced “Jam nemo reclamat, nullus obsistit”  “There is an end to opposition to Papal rule and religion, opposers there exist no more.” There were other similar announcements.   

10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rich gifts were offered the Portuguse king for instance brought the pope gifts from his recent conquests in the East Indies, and the pope gave the king a solid  gold rose as well as half the sovereignty to all the lands in the East. Dean Waddington said “The assembled prelates separated from the council with complacency, and mutual congratulations on the peace, unity and purity of the church.”

Their congratulations were not long continued.  11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. I could make a number of quotes here bust just two will suffice, one began earlier.  The Encylopaedia Britannica  “Everything  was quiet, every heretic exterminated: and the whole Christian world supinely acquiesced in the enormous absurdities inculcated by the Romish Church, when in 1517 the empire of superstition received its first attack from Luther” and Cunninghame “At the beginning of the XVIIth century  Europe reposed in the deep repose of a spiritual death, under thee iron yoke of the papacy.  There was none that moved its wing or opened its mouth or peeped: - when suddenly in one of the universities of Germany the voice of an obscure monk was heard, the sound of which rapidly filled Saxony, Germany and Europe itself, shaking the very foundations of papal power, and arising men from the lethargy of the ages.”

The bodies were to lie on the street for 3½ days representing 3½ years.  How does that fit? From the day those who figuratively gazed on their bodies at the council May 5 1514 till Luther pasted his theses on the church door, Oct 31 2017. Is 3½ years. Computed as follows

May 5^th 2014 to May 5^th 2017 is three years.

May 5 to May 31 = 27 days

June 30 days

July 31 days

August 31 days

September 30 days

October 31 days

Total 180 days, half of 360                      Total 1260 days.

Pope Adrian,  in a brief written to the Diet of Njuremburg, wrote, The heretics Huss and Jerome are now alive again in the person of Luther.

Next we read And great fear fell upon them which saw them. Not those of the council for that had disbanded.  Pope Leo was not worried by the obscure monk not seeing any dander from him, but those in Germany as beheld them such as Tetzel, Cardinal Caietan, Eck and Miltitz.  Each of these trembled with shock with the site of revived gospel preaching thrilling through Germany and noting there was power in the movement as if from heaven.

12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

In the following verses we see the king of Babylon is speaking about political power as heaven

Isaiah 14.13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 5  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms. 

So in our text above those who beheld them ascend to power. And how was that ascent accomplished?  By the grace of God.  Little more than 20 years from the Diet of Augsburg condemning them, we notice that the Emperor Charles V anticipating a Turkish attack under Sultan Solyman, put a stop to all suits against the protestants.  The protestants then became a political body of no small significance. 

 

So ends a brief history of the two witnesses,

 

I made a remark earlier that I would comment of the death of the witnesses.  It would appear that there were a few Lollards in England, supposing the dates are correct because I find that in 1517 John Brown of Ashford was burnt on the banks of the River Stour just 20 miles from here. But nobody appeared before the council in Rome.

 

 

 

---

 

[Invicta]

7 hours ago, Ian Day said:

David - is that your own study, or are you quoting someone?

 

Mostly I am quoting Elliott, the rest is my own study.  I disagree with him on the date of the beginning of the period.  He makes it to be the early to late 6th century, but I place it firmly as AD 610 when the decree of Phocas came into force making the Bishop of Rome the universal bishop.  At the time of writing he could not see the end of the prophecy in the events of 1870.  

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Invicta

[DaveW]

To address the false information that has been deposited in this thread, I suggest that the actual passage be examined.

Rev 11

3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 

The witnesses are clothed in sackcloth while they prophesy - their manner of dress is mentioned. Churches don't dress..

 

4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

These two witnesses ARE both the olive trees AND the candlesticks. Since each of these witnesses is both an olive tree and a candlestick we can deduce a couple of things: the olive trees do not represent the holy spirit; and, the olive trees and candlesticks are pictures of something else, not literal olive trees and candlesticks. 

 5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Fire proceeds out of their mouths which devours their enemies.

 6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

These two witnesses have the power to stop the rain, to turn water to blood, to bring plagues - at no time in history have we ever seen any church with these abilities......

 7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The beast overcomes the two witnesses and kills them. If they are the two remaining churches as a certain false teacher has said, then it would seem that Jesus was wrong when he said the gates of hell would not prevail over his church.....

 

 8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

It says here that their dead bodies would lie in the street of the city where Jesus was crucified - how can the body of a church lie in the street?????

 9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

These bodies will be seen in the street for three days, the bodies will not be put in graves. Sounds like it is talking about two physical bodies.

 

 10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Two prophets - specifically two.....

 11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Now these two stand upon their feet - churches don't have feet.........

 

 12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

The only thing that makes sense is that these two are  two actual men who do these things as stated.

The men are not specifically named, but the context of the passage that speaks of them is very clear that they are two individual physical men, the servants of God.

Any other understanding of this passage ignores the passage itself.

Edited June 3, 2016 by DaveW
Decided on better wording, and corrected phone spelling.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, DaveW said:

The only thing that makes sense is that these two are  two actual men who do these things as stated.

The men are not specifically named, but the context of the passage that speaks of them is very clear that they are two individual physical men, the servants of God.

Any other understanding of this passage ignores the passage itself.

Amen, and AMEN!!!!

[Alimantado]

6 hours ago, DaveW said:

To address the steaming pile that has been deposited in this thread...

Mmmmm, I love mashed potato.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

6 minutes ago, Alimantado said:

Mmmmm, I love mashed potato.

Thank you for the response -- it ratcheted me back down a couple of notches.

[Eric Stahl]

Hebrews 9:27

Moses already died but Enoch did not die yet.