Salvation Confusion

[Salyan]

Just remember that, at the end of the day, we are not capable of truly seeing what is inside a person. Only God can do that. We can make reasonable assumptions based on Scripture, but we cannot know who really is and isn't saved. I think some people, in the attempt to discern the heart (something only God can do), end up making additional rules and restrictions (i.e. "if they are really saved they wouldn't ___") that God has not established.

(Before assumptions are made about me for this statement, I should share that I have some terribly strict ideas of what is and isn't 'correct' behavior for a Christian, so I am not saying that rules and restrictions are wrong - just that they do not the heart reveal.)

[mkrishna]

It is true that one can put all their time and effort into fleshly pursuits and still be saved but hardly the same thing that is being discussed right now. Where your treasure is (whether time, money or effort) that is where your heart is but those passages are not discussing rejecting Jesus AFTER you got saved.

Even backslidden a Christian will still know who the real God is or they never were born again to begin with. That is the point folks. Some of you folks are interjecting an apple into an orange discussion.

For some reason some don't get it but let me clarify a little: I am not talking about sin. I am talking about repentance and believing the Gospel. If actually accomplished by the Spirit, no one repents from it back to a false religion. No matter how much we want to think so because they are confused or whatever, they are not confused folks, they are lost.

Now, nothing says they cannot be saved later so I recommend you get the matter settled for sure if you are in that boat.

I have known multiple 1000s of saved people (serving and backslidden) and have never run across this kind of silly discussion before.

 

 

I agree it is a very silly discussion. God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can turn to a false religion is saying God is not powerful to keep a person in the faith, and are shortchanging God.

[Alimantado]

I agree it is a very silly discussion. God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can turn to a false religion is saying God is not powerful to keep a person in the faith, and are shortchanging God.

I don't think it's as silly as all that. Firstly, there are places where the Bible speaks of fleshly desires as akin to idol worship (Col 3:5, Eph 5:5, Matt 6:24), which begs the question why we are treating idolatry of false Gods as the sin it's impossible for a Christian to commit while, say, love of money, is something that, according to Wretched "...one can put all their time and effort into ... and still be saved."

Secondly, your statement above taken to its logical conclusion implies the doctrine of sinless perfectionism, since we could ask it about all sin: "God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can [still sin] is saying God is not powerful to keep a person [from sinning], and are shortchanging God." So again, why say that about the sin of idolatry and not all sin?

Thirdly, John's made some good observations about how idolatry might work in practice in today's world that no-one has directly responded to with a 'yes, a Christian is capable of that' or 'no they're not'. Wretched keeps changing the subject so that he can accuse John of not sticking to it--his latest switcheroo is to accuse us all of reading "neo" books, of promoting easy-believism and of denying the existence of hell (seen anyone here do that?)--but actually it's John who's been sticking to the pertinent points, i.e. whether there are certain sins it's impossible for a Christian to commit. Oh yeah, and the easy-believism that's supposedly being 'refuted' here--who exactly has been a proponent of it on here, and where?

[trapperhoney]

Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act_8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

[wretched]

I don't think it's as silly as all that. Firstly, there are places where the Bible speaks of fleshly desires as akin to idol worship (Col 3:5, Eph 5:5, Matt 6:24), which begs the question why we are treating idolatry of false Gods as the sin it's impossible for a Christian to commit while, say, love of money, is something that, according to Wretched "...one can put all their time and effort into ... and still be saved."

Secondly, your statement above taken to its logical conclusion implies the doctrine of sinless perfectionism, since we could ask it about all sin: "God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can [still sin] is saying God is not powerful to keep a person [from sinning], and are shortchanging God." So again, why say that about the sin of idolatry and not all sin?

Thirdly, John's made some good observations about how idolatry might work in practice in today's world that no-one has directly responded to with a 'yes, a Christian is capable of that' or 'no they're not'. Wretched keeps changing the subject so that he can accuse John of not sticking to it--his latest switcheroo is to accuse us all of reading "neo" books, of promoting easy-believism and of denying the existence of hell (seen anyone here do that?)--but actually it's John who's been sticking to the pertinent points, i.e. whether there are certain sins it's impossible for a Christian to commit. Oh yeah, and the easy-believism that's supposedly being 'refuted' here--who exactly has been a proponent of it on here, and where?

No friend, no accusations but accurate observations. As time passes and the day approaches will there be real faith on the earth? not much.

Still though, the points John is making have no relevance to the discussion. Nowhere has sin been the issue in any of my posts or anyone else's I see but that is ok, if some don't get it now, perhaps you will sometime, no worries. Loving the world and the things in the world are not the same as confusing the things of the world as a god consciously. There is no other God but Me is the first thing you learn when saved or you didn't get saved...and you don't need discipleship classes to figure this part out...it ain't that hard folks.

I was right earlier, it is a silly discussion so carry on if so inclined, I won't

 

[John81]

By the reckoning of some it sounds as if upon salvation a person becomes perfectly knowing of Scripture, free from all sin, and forever living a life near to that of Jesus. Perhaps some experience such in their lives but for most it's a far different matter. For most, they spend time as babes in Christ, hopefully growing but yet immature in the faith. Folks mature at different rates. Some may be reaching a level of maturity in the faith in a few years, others may take several or even many more years.

Some are saved with a sound church to attend while others are not. This, of course, will effect their growth. Some can read the Word and comprehend much on their own, others can't. This, of course, will effect their growth.

Some reach a point where they believe they are on a high spiritual plain, attending a church they believer superior to most or even all others, and they avoid Christians not in their circle as much as possible. In their isolated world they miss much of the reality of everyday Christian life for thousands of their brothers/sisters in Christ; some of which they often won't even accept as such.

Some would look at the Christians today like those at Corinth as being unsaved regardless of Scripture telling us otherwise. Some would look at churches like those warned in Revelation as being unsaved regardless of the clear example of Scripture showing the patience of Christ in dealing with such and His efforts to restore such.

The fact babes and others immature in Christ can be led astray should come as no surprise. We see in Scripture, throughout history and today that such is the case. Some even backslide and may appear for a time to have turned from the faith. While some may cast such away, the Holy Ghost remains faithful, working within them to free them from their blindness and open their eyes to truth.

There is no sinless perfection in this life. A saved person is capable of committing sins just as are unsaved. A backslidden Christian is no less saved than one walking a more perfect walk.

All of this has nothing to do with those who make false professions, repeat a simplistic "sinners prayer" with a TV preacher, door knocker or off the back of a tract, then walk on as before, as if nothing has changed, because nothing has changed (other than they now may have a false sense of hope for heaven).

Contrariwise, the saved babe or immature in Christ will have shown signs of salvation before they were sidetracked, misled or backslid. The Holy Ghost works to restore such and we should work to do the same rather than to condemn.

[Alimantado]

Wretched keeps changing the subject so that he can accuse John of not sticking to it--his latest switcheroo is to accuse us all of reading "neo" books, of promoting easy-believism and of denying the existence of hell...

No friend, no accusations but accurate observations.

Very well, you claim to 'observe' that John and others have been deny the existence of Hell on this thread. Anyone who scrolls through the two pages can see whether that's true.

Still though, the points John is making have no relevance to the discussion. Nowhere has sin been the issue in any of my posts or anyone else's

The OP was about whether one must stop sinning to be saved and then you introduced this angle on the topic:

"Saints do succumb to sin repeatedly after salvation but they will never, ever turn to different gods or beliefs after salvation."

So obviously the thread has been about sin, and still is.

I see but that is ok, if some don't get it now, perhaps you will sometime, no worries.

With condescension like that it's pretty obvious who's being silly!

[Invicta]

By the reckoning of some it sounds as if upon salvation a person becomes perfectly knowing of Scripture, free from all sin, and forever living a life near to that of Jesus. Perhaps some experience such in their lives but for most it's a far different matter. For most, they spend time as babes in Christ, hopefully growing but yet immature in the faith. Folks mature at different rates. Some may be reaching a level of maturity in the faith in a few years, others may take several or even many more years.

Some are saved with a sound church to attend while others are not. This, of course, will effect their growth. Some can read the Word and comprehend much on their own, others can't. This, of course, will effect their growth.

Some reach a point where they believe they are on a high spiritual plain, attending a church they believer superior to most or even all others, and they avoid Christians not in their circle as much as possible. In their isolated world they miss much of the reality of everyday Christian life for thousands of their brothers/sisters in Christ; some of which they often won't even accept as such.

Some would look at the Christians today like those at Corinth as being unsaved regardless of Scripture telling us otherwise. Some would look at churches like those warned in Revelation as being unsaved regardless of the clear example of Scripture showing the patience of Christ in dealing with such and His efforts to restore such.

The fact babes and others immature in Christ can be led astray should come as no surprise. We see in Scripture, throughout history and today that such is the case. Some even backslide and may appear for a time to have turned from the faith. While some may cast such away, the Holy Ghost remains faithful, working within them to free them from their blindness and open their eyes to truth.

There is no sinless perfection in this life. A saved person is capable of committing sins just as are unsaved. A backslidden Christian is no less saved than one walking a more perfect walk.

All of this has nothing to do with those who make false professions, repeat a simplistic "sinners prayer" with a TV preacher, door knocker or off the back of a tract, then walk on as before, as if nothing has changed, because nothing has changed (other than they now may have a false sense of hope for heaven).

Contrariwise, the saved babe or immature in Christ will have shown signs of salvation before they were sidetracked, misled or backslid. The Holy Ghost works to restore such and we should work to do the same rather than to condemn.

I understand that John, but how does that fit in with Luke 8?

5  A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6  And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7  And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8  And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Are only those symbolized in verse 8 saved?  

 

 

 

[John81]

I understand that John, but how does that fit in with Luke 8?

5  A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6  And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7  And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8  And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Are only those symbolized in verse 8 saved?  

 

 

 

That depends upon who you listen to! I've heard preachers say only those in verse 8 are saved while I've heard other preachers say some of the others were saved but then backslid, which they say verse 7 is referring to. There are various other variations too.

Even if only the verse 8 folks were saved, they can still backslide at some point in their life, ever after bearing some fruit, and then bear much more fruit after they are restored.

[MikeWatson1]

Plain fact of the matter.. absolutely anyone posting on this forum, could in the next minutes, days, weeks, whatever... go and do something completely contrary to God.  

Does having the Holy Spirit inside you, mean the Holy Spirit will actually prevent you from doing something evil every time?

Sure, the Holy Spirit can take an unfaithful believer 'home'.. so they no longer hurt anyone from their sin.. but it doesn't happen every time.

Point is.. the free will we have.. means we could do any action in from this point on.

If you are going to say that won't happen.. then we would have to have no free will. 

Which comes back to why I mentioned calvinism affecting believers nowadays.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

I had someone email me concerning our church. He lives in the next town, just 30 miles away and is looking for a church. He asked about "easy believism" and "repentance". The following was my reply:

 

Hello, thanks for the e-mail.

 

I believe the best response to this would be to avoid terminology that may be left with the question of how I may be defining the terms, so…

 

The Bible declares, “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Prov 16:25) and “All we like sheep are gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isa 53:6).   Regardless of how it may manifest itself (baptism, penance, church membership or involvement, good deeds, charity, hoping for the best of intentions to outweigh wrong doing, or just ignoring eternity and taking your chances), the way that seems right to man (and religion) is to manage to win brownie points with God.

 

The problem with that is that “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” (James 2:10)  Jesus did that which we couldn’t as evidenced by II Cor 5:21 (For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him).

 

Seeing as how the Bible declares “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph 2:8-9) and “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Rom 10:17); and coupling that with Jesus stating “… I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (Jn 14:6) and “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” (Jn 5:40); it becomes quite apparent that ‘our’ goodness won’t merit eternal life.

 

So, how do I obtain this “…gift of God…” (Rom 6:23)? Jesus said “…except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Lk 13:3,5). Repent of what? Give up my sin? Name every sin, forsake it and ask forgiveness of them, one by one? I mean, I believe in God, I’m not an atheist!

 

The Devil not only believes in God but KNOWS He exist (James 2:19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”). We are already on a “spiritual journey” with LOTS of company “… for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:” (Mt 7:13) as we follow that “…way that seemeth right unto…” us. REPENT! “… repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Acts 20:21), “… repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.” (Heb 6:1). STOP, turn from the object of your trust for eternal life unto Christ. The price is paid, the gift is offered, call out to Him and throw yourself upon His mercy and grace.

 

So if I get them to pray, they are saved? I witnessed to a motel owner in NW FL named Pete. Pete was very willing to “take this Jesus” as he put it. If I had “lead Pete in the sinner’s prayer” he would not be saved. Why not? Pete was a Hindu who was going to (in his own words) “take this Jesus and add him to my other gods” (as he pointed out about a half dozen idols in the motel office).

 

But if I first show them that Jesus died and rose again and get them to pray? My wife was taught at an early age that Jesus is God, come in flesh, died for sin, was buried, rose the third day and ascended into Heaven. She even had a friend later lead her through a prayer of salvation. 6 years later she got saved. What’s the rest of the story there? She knew that Jesus was the Saviour because she was raised Roman Catholic, she prayed with her friend to get her (the friend) off her back and get the subject changed.

 

Personally, I don’t have someone “repeat after me, if you mean it with all your heart”. I will ask them to pray aloud so I can pray after they do. Many times they will say they don’t know how to pray or don’t know what to say. I inform them that there are not any “special words” and that prayer is simply talking to God. If they know their need and know what they want, tell the Lord – it’s as simple as telling me, or simpler because He can do it and I can’t. It has resulted in some of the most precious and heartfelt prayers you can hear.

 

When I got saved, neither giving up sin nor continuing in sin were in my mind – I wanted salvation. I know a man who wouldn’t get saved because he was afraid that the Lord would require him to give up Star Trek, someone must not really believed his soul was more important than this world. When I got saved, I didn’t know the Bible had 66 books or that the first book was named Genesis – but I was shown I could be reconciled to God. When I got saved I knew that I shouldn’t go diving headlong into sin, but I couldn’t have consciously repented of some of them (I knew theft was a sin but had no idea that covetousness was a sin).

 

Paul described all of this well when he said “… for I know {that ye may know that ye have eternal life} whom I have believed {believe on the Lord Jesus Christ}, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him {his soul, and eternity} against that day.{day of judgement}” (II Tim 1:12)  {italicized, underlined and bracketed additions mine}

Edited October 8, 2015 by OLD fashioned preacher

[Matthew24]

I had someone email me concerning our church. He lives in the next town, just 30 miles away and is looking for a church. He asked about "easy believism" and "repentance". The following was my reply:

 

Hello, thanks for the e-mail.

 

I believe the best response to this would be to avoid terminology that may be left with the question of how I may be defining the terms, so…

 

The Bible declares, “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Prov 16:25) and “All we like sheep are gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isa 53:6).   Regardless of how it may manifest itself (baptism, penance, church membership or involvement, good deeds, charity, hoping for the best of intentions to outweigh wrong doing, or just ignoring eternity and taking your chances), the way that seems right to man (and religion) is to manage to win brownie points with God.

 

The problem with that is that “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” (James 2:10)  Jesus did that which we couldn’t as evidenced by II Cor 5:21 (For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him).

 

Seeing as how the Bible declares “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Eph 2:8-9) and “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Rom 10:17); and coupling that with Jesus stating “… I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (Jn 14:6) and “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” (Jn 5:40); it becomes quite apparent that ‘our’ goodness won’t merit eternal life.

 

So, how do I obtain this “…gift of God…” (Rom 6:23)? Jesus said “…except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Lk 13:3,5). Repent of what? Give up my sin? Name every sin, forsake it and ask forgiveness of them, one by one? I mean, I believe in God, I’m not an atheist!

 

The Devil not only believes in God but KNOWS He exist (James 2:19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”). We are already on a “spiritual journey” with LOTS of company “… for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:” (Mt 7:13) as we follow that “…way that seemeth right unto…” us. REPENT! “… repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Acts 20:21), “… repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.” (Heb 6:1). STOP, turn from the object of your trust for eternal life unto Christ. The price is paid, the gift is offered, call out to Him and throw yourself upon His mercy and grace.

 

So if I get them to pray, they are saved? I witnessed to a motel owner in NW FL named Pete. Pete was very willing to “take this Jesus” as he put it. If I had “lead Pete in the sinner’s prayer” he would not be saved. Why not? Pete was a Hindu who was going to (in his own words) “take this Jesus and add him to my other gods” (as he pointed out about a half dozen idols in the motel office).

 

But if I first show them that Jesus died and rose again and get them to pray? My wife was taught at an early age that Jesus is God, come in flesh, died for sin, was buried, rose the third day and ascended into Heaven. She even had a friend later lead her through a prayer of salvation. 6 years later she got saved. What’s the rest of the story there? She knew that Jesus was the Saviour because she was raised Roman Catholic, she prayed with her friend to get her (the friend) off her back and get the subject changed.

 

Personally, I don’t have someone “repeat after me, if you mean it with all your heart”. I will ask them to pray aloud so I can pray after they do. Many times they will say they don’t know how to pray or don’t know what to say. I inform them that there are not any “special words” and that prayer is simply talking to God. If they know their need and know what they want, tell the Lord – it’s as simple as telling me, or simpler because He can do it and I can’t. It has resulted in some of the most precious and heartfelt prayers you can hear.

 

When I got saved, neither giving up sin nor continuing in sin were in my mind – I wanted salvation. I know a man who wouldn’t get saved because he was afraid that the Lord would require him to give up Star Trek, someone must not really believed his soul was more important than this world. When I got saved, I didn’t know the Bible had 66 books or that the first book was named Genesis – but I was shown I could be reconciled to God. When I got saved I knew that I shouldn’t go diving headlong into sin, but I couldn’t have consciously repented of some of them (I knew theft was a sin but had no idea that covetousness was a sin).

 

Paul described all of this well when he said “… for I know {that ye may know that ye have eternal life} whom I have believed {believe on the Lord Jesus Christ}, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him {his soul, and eternity} against that day.{day of judgement}” (II Tim 1:12)  {italicized, underlined and bracketed additions mine}

I hope this doesn't offend you, but i have no issue with this.