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Matthew24

Salvation Confusion

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Taken from BO 

We believe in order to truly pass from death to life a person must repent of their sins.

remission of sins by grace through faith in Gods promise and Christ's blood.

We believe good works do not and can never have any part in salvation.

So what you are saying is salvation doesn't come from doing good, but it does come from quitting bad. This is why the definition of repent is so important. This leads ppl to confusion about what salvation is. If you want to kick me off, kick me off. 

JONAH 3:10

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Many people in the fundamentalist easy believism camp who are followers of cult leaders Jack Hyles and Steve Anderson have an agenda and don't like to be told that the so called "Professions" they have had are false. The fact is, they have led millions to hell, and I have a right to be righteously angry about that.

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I suppose you believe in hard believism? I don't know of any preacher that believes that praying a prayer saves. Just because someone repeats a prayer at the end of soul winning to help them tell God thats what they believe....it doesn't mean the power is in the prayer. Nobody believes that. I believe in once saved always saved and easy believism. It's easy to put your trust on Jesus. It isn't cheap, it is free. I believe baptist should embrace the term you used. It's hard to live a sinless life, Jesus did all the hard part.

Alimantado,

I will admit, we must repent of certain sins to enter the kingdom of heaven. I don't think the majority of you understand where I am coming from, or perhaps you do. Which sin must we repent of? Fornication, drinking, adultery? No, it's idolatry, unbelief, false religion. Wording it, the way OB did, and many churches do, leaves people with a false belief that they must get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation. Everyone knows that salvation isn't about doing good deeds, which it says on the OB doctrine page, but it also isn't from keeping a bunch of negative commandments. (Don't do this) It angers me to see so many people falling for this LIE. It was hard for me to get saved. Why? Because of all of the junk bad preaching fills your mind with. I'm sorry if my choice of font size offended anyone. I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning, but it is also untrue that it means that we must be willing, or we have to be sorry. Crying and begging has never gotten anyone saved, it's faith alone. There are many good things on the salvation doctrine section, but it doesn't take much to taint the message. 

1. The book of John is the only book that's purpose is: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. The word repent is never used. Is the book of John an adequate book to give someone the gospel.

 2. Repent of sin is never used in the KJV. It is used in these. 

a. Mormon bible- Jacob 3:8  O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. LOL

b. Koran - Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)

The Mormons teach that you must repent of your sins to be saved. I just elected to go with this verse to show what a racist book it is. I don't claim to have all of the answers, but I am convinced that this is causing major confusion and "repent of your sin" for salvation is an unsaving message that leads one to trust in their own righteousness.

 

 

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Also the book of John was written at a later date than the other Gospels. Repentance is dealt with heavily in the other gospels and some of the epistles..

You can't isolate the Gospel of John from the rest of scripture. Even still, all of the people you see refusing to believe on Christ in the book of John are refusing to repent of some sin(s). There is a reason why Jesus confronted the Woman at the well about her adultery.

Acts 17:30-31 shows repentance also, in fact the book of Acts, which is a book of heavy evangelism, contains quite a few references to repentance in relation to salvation.

 

 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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Acts 20:21 is very clear regarding the importance of repentance and the focal point of repentance.

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

This verse also makes it clear Paul preached the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles, the very same Gospel to both, and those who claim otherwise are in error.

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I will admit, we must repent of certain sins to enter the kingdom of heaven. I don't think the majority of you understand where I am coming from, or perhaps you do. Which sin must we repent of? Fornication, drinking, adultery? No, it's idolatry, unbelief, false religion.

Wording it, the way OB did, and many churches do, leaves people with a false belief that they must get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation.

Everyone knows that salvation isn't about doing good deeds, which it says on the OB doctrine page, but it also isn't from keeping a bunch of negative commandments. (Don't do this) It angers me to see so many people falling for this LIE. It was hard for me to get saved. Why? Because of all of the junk bad preaching fills your mind with. I'm sorry if my choice of font size offended anyone.

I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning, but it is also untrue that it means that we must be willing, or we have to be sorry.

Crying and begging has never gotten anyone saved, it's faith alone. There are many good things on the salvation doctrine section, but it doesn't take much to taint the message. 

Ok, well the first point I want to make is about what you are claiming the OB statement is saying. I think you believe "repent" means to stop doing something and therefore you think when the OB statement says a person must "repent of their sins" to be saved, logically it is saying that a person must have stopped sinning before they can be saved. You appear to say this in the other thread too.

The thing is, in that other thread, Heartstrings explained that this is not at all what people here mean when they something like 'repent of sin' or 'turn from sin'. And when he explained it, you were cool with it. Yet now we have you trying to make exactly the same point all over again as if that conservation never happened.

Moreover, in the text I've highlighted in red you say that you are not claiming that the OB statement declares we have to stop sinning to be saved. Yet not only does your original post seem to make that accusation but you appear to repeat the accusation just a few lines earlier in the paragraph above (highlighted in blue). Here again:

You: "Wording it, the way OB did, and many churches do, leaves people with a false belief that they must get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation."

You again: "I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning..."

Ok, so what does the phrase "get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation" mean if it doesn't mean stop sinning? Or are you trying to make the distinction that OB is saying it unwittingly? If so, then saying something unwittingly is still saying it, so we're still back to the question: are you saying OB claims we must stop sinning to be saved or not?

You say:

"I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning, but it is also untrue that it means that we must be willing, or we have to be sorry."

So are you claiming that OB's statement--"a person must repent of their sins"--also can't possibly mean rejecting sin in principle, desiring to stop sinning, desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin etc etc, however you want to phrase it? Very well, if the phrase means neither stopping sinning nor desiring to no longer sin and no longer be against God, then what do you say it does mean? According to you, what is OB's statement really saying?

Second point I want to make is to do with your own claim about what we need to repent of:

"I will admit, we must repent of certain sins to enter the kingdom of heaven... Which sin must we repent of? ... idolatry, unbelief, false religion."

Now, if we accept your definition of repentance as 'stopping doing stuff', consistent with your interpretation of 'repent of sin' as 'stopping doing sin', then it follows that what you are saying here is that we must have successfully stopped 'doing' any idolatry, unbelief or false religion before we can be saved. In other words, a person must not have an ounce of unbelief or uncertainty, they must be nothing less than 100% faithful to God and not ever be tempted or swayed by other things, and they must be 100% correct on all doctrine. Once they have achieved all those things, they can be saved. And should a 'saved' person ever experience doubt or uncertainty, or take their eyes off God even for a moment, or turn out to be doctrinally wrong, presumably they must actually have been unsaved all along.

Is that your view? It sounds like it if we accept your definition of repentance. I'm unsaved according to that definition.

Edited by Alimantado
One 'and' instead of an 'or' corrected.

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2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV) 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 (KJV) 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 (KJV) 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

Sure looks like some of the Corinthians had to do some repenting, or they would not be sons and daughters.  Of interest, although they are identified as saints and brethren by the Apostle Paul, they still are not sons and daughters.  God said He would not even be a Father to them until they turned from their present walk.

 

 

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Repent means - to change (mind)   So yes it is true, every person that has ever been saved has repented of something....YOU HAVE TO. Why? Because we can't believe on Jesus if we believe in Muhammad. We can't believe on Jesus if we are trusting in our own works. We can't trust in Jesus if we don't believe in God. We must repent of all of those things to be saved. BUT...it doesn't mean all sin....or even have a change of mind toward all sin like you said. I truly believe OB means this (your quote) desiring to stop sinning, desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin. I don't believe this is correct either. 

What must we do to be saved? Beleive on the lord Jesus Christ. I honestly believe almost all of the people on OB believe this, but we aren't doing that justice by telling people we must also repent of sin. It leads to confusion mostly because of confusion about what the word means. When we believe on Christ we repent (change our mind) about what salvation is (faith). We don't have to have a complete change of mind toward sin. When we grow in the lord and realize that we aren't in bondage to sin because we are saved eternally by what Jesus did for us....that is what leads us to lead a more pleasing life to God. Our faith grows in our walk with Jesus through hearing and reading the word. 

 

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2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV) 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 (KJV) 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 (KJV) 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

Sure looks like some of the Corinthians had to do some repenting, or they would not be sons and daughters.  Of interest, although they are identified as saints and brethren by the Apostle Paul, they still are not sons and daughters.  God said He would not even be a Father to them until they turned from their present walk.

 

 

Is this written to the saved or unsaved?

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Among many denominations today, there is a rising belief that repentance is nothing more than a change of mind about who God is. In other words, the general consensus is that when God tells us to "Repent" it only involves a change of mind.

But is that what repentance is? Or is it something more? I submit that it is something more.

Let's look at it in this way. Suppose I wanted to to to McDonalds to buy a Filet-O-Fish. I ask my wife to drive me as I don't have a license. Half-way there, I have a change of mind and decide I would rather have a Meatball Sub from Subway. Now, if I had a change of mind, would I continue to McDonalds?

Of course not!

I would tell my wife to drive to the Subway instead.

Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.

We see this in the book of Revelation. In Chapter two, we read:

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Now, was God saying to have a change of mind about her fornication, but to continue in that direction?

Absolutely not!  God wanted her to turn from her sinful ways.

And the very next verse reveals that God does not just want a change of mind...

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

He wants a change of action as well. He wanted those in allegiance with the woman to repent of their deeds... their actions.

If one believes that repentance is merely a change of mind about who God is, that one is deceived into believing a lie.

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Repent means - to change (mind). So yes it is true, every person that has ever been saved has repented of something....YOU HAVE TO. Why? Because we can't believe on Jesus if we believe in Muhammad. We can't believe on Jesus if we are trusting in our own works. We can't trust in Jesus if we don't believe in God. We must repent of all of those things to be saved. BUT...it doesn't mean all sin....or even have a change of mind toward all sin like you said. I truly believe OB means this (your quote) desiring to stop sinning, desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin. I don't believe this is correct either. 

I don't believe we have to repent of "all sin". I think when the average person gets saved there are a multitude of sinful acts they get remission for that they don't even recognise as sinful acts--some perhaps which they may not recognise as sin before they die. In fact, it's implicit in the idea of having faith in a redeemer that we can rely on that redeemer to wash us of our sins even if we fail to recognise all that is sin. So in that bit you quoted, I certainly wasn't saying that desiring to stop sinning meant a capacity to identify every specific sinful act that one has ever committed and consciously reject each and every one. What I meant by "desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin" was that a person recognises that there is such a thing a sin--as doing things that violate God's will--and they know they want to do God's will rather than violate it, i.e. they wish to follow God. When they put their faith in God's grace and Jesus' work on the cross to pay for their sins, they do so because they want to follow Christ, not just because they want to get away with it (although I'm not sure we can deny an element of self-interest).

What must we do to be saved? Beleive on the lord Jesus Christ. I honestly believe almost all of the people on OB believe this, but we aren't doing that justice by telling people we must also repent of sin. It leads to confusion mostly because of confusion about what the word means. When we believe on Christ we repent (change our mind) about what salvation is (faith). We don't have to have a complete change of mind toward sin. When we grow in the lord and realize that we aren't in bondage to sin because we are saved eternally by what Jesus did for us....that is what leads us to lead a more pleasing life to God. Our faith grows in our walk with Jesus through hearing and reading the word.

Let's say I become convinced that Jesus is God, that he died on the cross and rose again, paying for our sins in so doing, and that we can be saved by believing on this work. Let's say I respond by saying: "What an idiot! I really hate God and I want to do whatever I can to grieve him. But I also want to get away with it and I've become convinced that Jesus is Lord, which means I might not get away with it. But I'm also convinced that Jesus has paid for my sins on the cross and that he offers forgiveness if I'll only accept it. Well, though I think he's an idiot for doing that, I'll take it thank you very much! That way I can carry on doing my favourite hobby--hating God--and there'll be no comeback. Bonus!"

In that scenario, I've "changed my mind" and come to believe that Jesus is God--is Lord--and that his work on the cross saves me from my sins. I'm also still totally against God and pro sin. Yet you say that bit doesn't matter, i.e. that the hypothetical "me" above would be saved.

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Before anything happens to anyone, they must hear the Gospel clearly from the Word, the seed has to be planted. Without the Scriptures in their ears, the Spirit will not convict.

With the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is a Spirit induced change of heart that cannot be explained by mechanics alone. But when it does happen all things are new, the blinders lifted and they receive more and more truth as time goes by like a sponge (some faster than others). This Spirit generated change of heart does create a Spirit generated change in action as the new believer hears more and more milk from the Word.

Saints do succumb to sin repeatedly after salvation but they will never, ever turn to different gods or beliefs after salvation. That is what Hebrews 6 teaches quite clearly IMO.

Noone saved will turn to humanism, paganism, idolatry, islam, budda, the pope, etc...EVER. It is quite impossible so if you have someone in this situation, keep witnessing to them because they never got saved to begin with. They got sold a rabbit's foot prayer.

 

 

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No one saved will EVER turn to another religion? 

Thats not supporting being saved without works. Dont confuse the root of salvation with the fruit of salvation or justification with sanctification.

I guess i was never saved seeing i tried new age beliefs 8 years after calling to jesus for salvation. 

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No one saved will EVER turn to another religion? 

Thats not supporting being saved without works. Dont confuse the root of salvation with the fruit of salvation or justification with sanctification.

I guess i was never saved seeing i tried new age beliefs 8 years after calling to jesus for salvation. 

You are correct, you were not saved before you did that my friend, but a seed was planted. And this concept is certainly supported 100% by Scripture.

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Well i am guessing you mean 'perseverance of the saints' 

My knowledge of this is that it doesn't really mean 'once saved always saved' but that those who have been chosen for eternal life WILL do good works, continue in holiness etc..

Well..  David didnt do that.  Sure, he returned to the faith, but he did grievous sins. Murder and adultery.

 

I reject calvinism on probably all points. perseverance of the saints should really be: preservation of the saved if it is going to mean 'once saved always saved' 

 

Aside from this, even if it wasnt salvation at 13 when i received it, I surely have believed now.

Scripturally tho: what of john 3:16, 5:24, 10:28 etc?  That's saved, done, dusted.  

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A saved person can commit any sin an unsaved person can commit. A saved person can backslide and get caught up in some false religion just the same as a lost person can get caught up in such. The difference is, for the saved person the Holy Ghost will be working from within to restore them, turning them from error back to truth.

It shouldn't be, but especially here in America this isn't all that uncommon.

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Many people in the fundamentalist easy believism camp who are followers of cult leaders Jack Hyles and Steve Anderson have an agenda and don't like to be told that the so called "Professions" they have had are false. The fact is, they have led millions to hell, and I have a right to be righteously angry about that.

I would say if the are easy believists they are not fundamentalists.

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A biblical definition of 'repent'

Genesis 6:5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

 

 

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Is it hard to believe in Jesus? 

Wasnt for the publican who 'smote his chest and said God have mercy on me a sinner'

He was convicted and responded by calling for mercy.

This is easy.

What is hard about it?

If the consequence of not believing till you die is hell, why would Jesus make it not easy to believe?

Yes there are false professions, but again dont confuse the root of believing, faith with the fruit of salvation  

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