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Matthew24

Salvation Confusion

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A saved person can commit any sin an unsaved person can commit. A saved person can backslide and get caught up in some false religion just the same as a lost person can get caught up in such. The difference is, for the saved person the Holy Ghost will be working from within to restore them, turning them from error back to truth.

It shouldn't be, but especially here in America this isn't all that uncommon.

 

Well the emerging church movement and rick warren types would certainly agree but this cannot be found in the Bible. The Bible describes it as quite impossible for a born again Christian to blaspheme the Spirit. What you are describing here would be crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, and putting Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6 is no mystery and very clear on this subject.

This kind of thinking is certainly in agreement with false professions though. Not trying to one up anyone but we need to get busy with witnessing to people who got "saved" without any knowledge of Hell, Judgement or Condemnation.

About the only 2 reasonable qualifiers we have to know who is a brother or sister in Christ is this and professing Him before men with Baptism. Why should we care you ask? So next time someone stops you while witnessing and says they are already born again, we will ask the right questions to make sure before we move on.

People like this are all over the place thanks to satan and his emerging church which he started as an answer to the fundamental movement years ago.

Just as he did with the catholic church in the 3rd century as an answer to the spread of the real Gospel by real Christians. It is a phony imitation of Bible Christianity.

Anyone who was saved 20-30 years ago used to know this stuff, we have just forgotten it. Oh and BTW: the reason we have forgotten is because we are lured away from the Word and into reading and considering every watered down idea by these charlatans.

We do these false professors no justice by assuring them they are saved simply because they said the repeat after me prayers. If there was no change then there was no regeneration of the Spirit. Read the parable of the sower for clues into this.

Edited by wretched

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A person can only blaspheme the Holy Spirit by refusing to be born again in Christ. A saved person cannot do that since they are already born again.

Scripture does not say there are certain sins a saved person can never commit. There are those who believe once saved a Christian can't commit sin. Some actually believe they are living in perfect holiness, others simply call "little sins" mistakes or some other trivial word rather than acknowledge their sins for what they are. This isn't biblical. What is biblical is saved people sin, as First John is very clear about.

Just because a person is saved doesn't mean they are immediately mature in the faith and can't be led astray, make mistakes or backslide into religious folly.

One thing that would greatly help prevent such would be if we (Christians) would actually disciple other Christians, befriend Christians, help Christians. Instead, even in many of the "better" churches, Christians tend to form cliques which they are reluctant to let others into or they have their "church friends" while at church and worldly friends the rest of the time.

This leaves us with many born again Christians weak in the faith, slow to mature, left in infancy, or even pushed away.

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A person can only blaspheme the Holy Spirit by refusing to be born again in Christ. A saved person cannot do that since they are already born again.

Scripture does not say there are certain sins a saved person can never commit. There are those who believe once saved a Christian can't commit sin. Some actually believe they are living in perfect holiness, others simply call "little sins" mistakes or some other trivial word rather than acknowledge their sins for what they are. This isn't biblical. What is biblical is saved people sin, as First John is very clear about.

Just because a person is saved doesn't mean they are immediately mature in the faith and can't be led astray, make mistakes or backslide into religious folly.

One thing that would greatly help prevent such would be if we (Christians) would actually disciple other Christians, befriend Christians, help Christians. Instead, even in many of the "better" churches, Christians tend to form cliques which they are reluctant to let others into or they have their "church friends" while at church and worldly friends the rest of the time.

This leaves us with many born again Christians weak in the faith, slow to mature, left in infancy, or even pushed away.

Your first line answered the issue John?

So a person hears the Gospel, is supposedly convicted by the Holy Spirit, supposedly repents from any ideas of God they had before to supposedly trust in the Living, One True God.

Later on however, repents from the Living, One True God to trust some other false god....was truly BORN AGAIN while all this occurred?

Come on John, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (on either side)

Edited by wretched

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Your first line answered the issue John?

So a person hears the Gospel, is supposedly convicted by the Holy Spirit, supposedly repents from any ideas of God they had before to supposedly trust in the Living, One True God.

Later on however, repents from the Living, One True God to trust some other false god....was truly BORN AGAIN while all this occurred?

Come on John, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (on either side)

What if the other false god is money, prestige, work pressures, technology, their family, their self? Are you saying that it's impossible for a saved Christian to commit the sin of idolatry?

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It's not uncommon for a saved person to find themselves in very difficult times and believe God has abandoned them, or to think perhaps more is needed, and to turn to strange things to find help. That may take the form of making money their idol, astrology, horoscopes, or even thinking maybe "they" are right and all/some/most gods are one and the same and get caught up looking for a way to draw on God by pursuing some false religion ideas.

Those I've had personal experience with are always restored to a right walk with God. Their testimonies are always very similar; of having felt very confused during that time, unfocused, having felt conviction but either not recognizing it at the time or thinking it just their own worries. Yet at some point the indwelling Spirit gets through to them, they come to see the great error of their ways, they repent and restored and typically have a great hunger for the things of God and the Lord graciously has someone in or come into their lives at that point who will disciple them and set their feet firmly on the path of righteousness.

Meanwhile, the unsaved who get caught up in those things, including those who "tried" Christianity, tend to either remain caught up in those things or dive in further.

The idea a saved person can't get caught up in some false church, try some false ways, latch onto something ungodly, or such things is no different than those who claim a saved person can't commit suicide, get drunk, do drugs, carry on an affair, get divorced, or commit other sins that some claim no saved person can commit.

Every saved person matures at a different pace, a different rate than others. Some are well discipled, some are not discipled at all. Some get into the Word themselves and begin to grow, some find confusion trying that. Some are freed from some sins while others are not instantly freed from the same sins. Some get caught up in "big" sins, others never commit another "big" sin.

Being born again in Christ doesn't make anyone perfect or incapable of falling into sin, even the sin of thinking some false religion may have something right.

We should be thankful our God doesn't leave us or forsake us but rather works in our lives to free us from sinful bondage and set us aright with Him.

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Those who use the term "easy believism" are referring to the practice of presenting a watered down message and then prodding or pushing someone to repeat a "sinners prayer" and telling them that's all they have to do to be sure of heaven.

Easy believism is really thought of in 2 different ways. I've looked it up and noticed this when conversating. 1. Watered down gospel. 2. People also use it to critisize Baptist...because we don't have 7 steps of salvation like the Church of Christ "Cambellites". Another good one is "cheap grace."....as if their righteousness makes it expensive.

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I think too many christians who think they are embracing once saved always saved are actually embracing the calvinist idea that a saved person WILL do good works, will not fall away.. will continue in holiness etc..

A saved person does have the Holy Spirit inside them who will discipline them and teach them. That is true. Therefore when they do sin-- He will prompt them to remain in close relationship.. 

But that doesn't mean they WON'T sin.  Or that they won't ever try a different belief, or murder, or commit adultery etc..  it means if they do so.. the Holy Spirit will convict them and discipline them.  

Not that they wont do they sins to begin with.

There are many who believe unlike calvinism that you do call for salvation.. but then take on the teaching of perserverance of the saints from calvinism and say that evidence of salvation is a completely changed life.. from the beginning to the end.  

It is taking 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' right out of context.

 

 

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I think too many christians who think they are embracing once saved always saved are actually embracing the calvinist idea that a saved person WILL do good works, will not fall away.. will continue in holiness etc..

I know of no one who believes that., although there will be some, no doubt.  We know that some will  backslide and fall in to error, but if we confess our sins he will forgive us our sins,

A saved person does have the Holy Spirit inside them who will discipline them and teach them. That is true. Therefore when they do sin-- He will prompt them to remain in close relationship.. 

But that doesn't mean they WON'T sin.  Or that they won't ever try a different belief, or murder, or commit adultery etc..  it means if they do so.. the Holy Spirit will convict them and discipline them.  

Not that they wont do they sins to begin with.

Agreed both points

There are many who believe unlike calvinism that you do call for salvation.. but then take on the teaching of perserverance of the saints from calvinism and say that evidence of salvation is a completely changed life.. from the beginning to the end.  

I don't know what you mean

It is taking 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' right out of contexct

 

 

 

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It is true that one can put all their time and effort into fleshly pursuits and still be saved but hardly the same thing that is being discussed right now. Where your treasure is (whether time, money or effort) that is where your heart is but those passages are not discussing rejecting Jesus AFTER you got saved.

Even backslidden a Christian will still know who the real God is or they never were born again to begin with. That is the point folks. Some of you folks are interjecting an apple into an orange discussion.

For some reason some don't get it but let me clarify a little: I am not talking about sin. I am talking about repentance and believing the Gospel. If actually accomplished by the Spirit, no one repents from it back to a false religion. No matter how much we want to think so because they are confused or whatever, they are not confused folks, they are lost.

Now, nothing says they cannot be saved later so I recommend you get the matter settled for sure if you are in that boat.

I have known multiple 1000s of saved people (serving and backslidden) and have never run across this kind of silly discussion before.

 

 

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I would agree with wretched.  I believe it is impossible for a saved person to totally deny God.  Jeremiah tried it, but couldn't.

Jeremiah 20:9 (KJV) 9 Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But [his word] was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not [stay].

How much more impossible is it for the saved, who, when disobedient, are chastened by the Lord?  How much more difficult to deny a God who promised to never leave, nor forsake him/her?  How utterly impossible, for one who has the seal of the Spirit of the living God, to walk away from God completely.

 

Edited to add:  If one is able to walk away, embracing the world and its sinful pleasures with no conviction whatsoever, that one never truly had the Spirit of God abiding in him/her to begin with.

1 John 2:19 (KJV) 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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A person can turn to many things without denying God. People can be led astray while thinking their actions are not contrary to God. I've known of saved folks getting taken in by some aspect of the "all religions are the same/all gods are the same" stuff that goes around. Even some preachers say these things! No wonder an immature Christian can become confused and think 'the Great Spirit" was just the American Indians term for God, and get caught up in some aspect of that (which most often it's some modern concoction invented to make money rather than actual aspects of pagan American Indian religion).

As I mentioned previously, the one (huge!) advantage saved people have who get drawn into such is the Holy Spirit within them. The Holy Spirit will work on them until they eventually "awake" and see the error and they turn from that and are restored.

I still remember the confusion among many immature Christians when President Bush (yes, another "conservative" Republican who was supposed to 'save America') began declaring Christianity and Islam worship the same God and are just different paths to the same heaven. Bush, followed by Obama, went on to declare virtually all religions worship the same God, just in different ways, with all leading to the same heaven. Sad to say, even some preachers accepted this to one extent or another and further confused people. All of this added weight to the idea each person must seek out their own best way to connect with God, whether that be through adopting some aspect of what we call nature worship or calling God by another name. All wrong, of course, but it's easy to see how some get caught up in this and led astray.

Even more easy for them to go astray when many churches today have adopted the "social gospel" and similar unbiblical practices which can seem good to an immature Christian and seem to offer them a way to "make a difference for God". In such situations they often find themselves surrounded by secular Christians (not realizing the difference) but feeling a part of good, active Christians.

Sad, but thankfully everyone I know who has ever got caught up in such were brought out by the Holy Ghost working on them. Thanks be to God He never leaves us or forsakes us even if we wonder off.

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2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV) 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 (KJV) 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 (KJV) 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

Sure looks like some of the Corinthians had to do some repenting, or they would not be sons and daughters.  Of interest, although they are identified as saints and brethren by the Apostle Paul, they still are not sons and daughters.  God said He would not even be a Father to them until they turned from their present walk.

 

 

That's talking to believers, SFIC, not the lost. Don't confuse sanctification with salvation.

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Wow, this thread is sure covering the territory!

Matthew24, if you have a problem with the OB statement of faith, I suggest you take it up privately with BroMatt. It is, after all, his forum and his statement of faith. The opinions of the forum members at large (including myself) have absolutely zero influence on what the OB position is.

That being said, 'OB' is not a contiguous group. We have all sorts of differences in beliefs represented here - even among fundamental, Baptist believers. For example, you have seen some in this thread say that repentance is a forsaking (physical departing from) of sin. I personally believe that such a thing would amount to a work (I think you might be saying the same thing?), and I reject that definition of repentance. Repentance is a change of mind - toward sin, righteousness, and judgement (the three things the Holy Spirit has been sent to convict the world of). To add anything else to it is a work. (And seriously, how can an unsaved person be expected to quit sinning anyways? He is a slave to it.)  We also have to be careful that we do not confuse the work of God in our lives in sanctification with the act of salvation. Salvation involves only repentance/belief. Sanctification, on the other hand, if it is to be active in our life, requires us to live by faith in obedience to Christ. Sometimes people confuse the two things and require of the unsaved person before salvation that which is really part of the process of sanctification for the believer. 

All that being said - repentance is required and is a part of the salvation process. You cannot remove it in the hopes of being simpler or preventing misunderstanding. For without a person first repenting, they will see no need for trusting Christ by faith for salvation, or they will be 'believing' the wrong things for the wrong reasons.

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Not sure it is addressing believers.  

 

If they don't turn from the company they keep, they could not be sons and daughters.  Nor would they be received by God.

 

doesn't sound like they are saved at all.  The saved are received of God.  The saved are sons and daughters.  God will not reject the saved.

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The neo evangelical influences are being thoroughly revealed in this thread. I recommend you folks burn those books and get away from their websites on the double quick.

30 years ago is when satan introduced competition among fundamentalists in the form of conversion numbers. Sadly, fundamental churches were exploding (and had been for 20 years) at the time with real conversions so satan used our fleshly need to win at all costs into the mix to stop the flood of revival; and we have been going down hill since.

This is when the partial gospel was introduced in these great Churches. It wasn't the Pastors who introduced the false, hellless gospel it was the good intentioned soulwinners who did once they realized their numbers will now count without bearing their fruit. The dilution has continued every since.

At the same time is when the neo evangelical movement got started and it was satan that invented it with the same watered down hellless gospel. "We invite you to begin your relationship with Jesus today" that is NOT the Gospel.

Fast forward to now when IFBs are so utterly confused over who is saved and who isn't that the isn't number is nonexistent basically.

We have forgotten what fruit that remains means and think anyone who says they are saved are saved. Your neo books say they are but the Bible says they are bastards and not sons. This country is running 1000:1 bastard to son ratio in my estimation thanks to satan and his hellless gospel.

Lets stop wondering if people who show zero interest in baptism, growth, warning their families of condemnation and feel absolutely no conviction over anything are saved. Witness to these folks because they never heard the real deal to begin with. These are not issues of growth, or discipleship or difference speeds and personalities, these are basic Bible doctrines. If the Spirit is present, the above things will follow and at a minimum the desire to grow will be present.

The old timers who refuse to pick up neo trash books are the only ones who still remember what the Bible says it appears.

 

 

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We really should know who is, and who isn't, saved in our assemblies.  The Bible tells us to know those that labour amongst us. 

Churches are more and more looking like the world, because the world has been invited into the Church instead of the Church going out into the world.  The unsaved are brought in with all their sinful luggage, and none in the congregation, nor in the pulpit seems to care any more. 

As you say, it is all about the numbers.  We need more "Paul's" that will write the assemblies and instruct them with the Word of the Lord to separate themselves from their wicked fellows.  We need more who will tell the assembled to "Come out from amongst them and be ye separate, saith the Lord.  And you will be sons and daughters to me and I will be a Father unto you." 

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The neo evangelical influences are being thoroughly revealed in this thread. I recommend you folks burn those books and get away from their websites on the double quick.

30 years ago is when satan introduced competition among fundamentalists in the form of conversion numbers. Sadly, fundamental churches were exploding (and had been for 20 years) at the time with real conversions so satan used our fleshly need to win at all costs into the mix to stop the flood of revival; and we have been going down hill since.

This is when the partial gospel was introduced in these great Churches. It wasn't the Pastors who introduced the false, hellless gospel it was the good intentioned soulwinners who did once they realized their numbers will now count without bearing their fruit. The dilution has continued every since.

At the same time is when the neo evangelical movement got started and it was satan that invented it with the same watered down hellless gospel. "We invite you to begin your relationship with Jesus today" that is NOT the Gospel.

Fast forward to now when IFBs are so utterly confused over who is saved and who isn't that the isn't number is nonexistent basically.

We have forgotten what fruit that remains means and think anyone who says they are saved are saved. Your neo books say they are but the Bible says they are bastards and not sons. This country is running 1000:1 bastard to son ratio in my estimation thanks to satan and his hellless gospel.

Lets stop wondering if people who show zero interest in baptism, growth, warning their families of condemnation and feel absolutely no conviction over anything are saved. Witness to these folks because they never heard the real deal to begin with. These are not issues of growth, or discipleship or difference speeds and personalities, these are basic Bible doctrines. If the Spirit is present, the above things will follow and at a minimum the desire to grow will be present.

The old timers who refuse to pick up neo trash books are the only ones who still remember what the Bible says it appears.

 

 

Confusion on who is saved and not in the evangelical world today is seen in the fact that many so called evangelicals believe the Pope is saved. This wants me to vomit.

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It's not just evangelicals, I know of at least two IFB churches which speak well of the pope and the pastor quotes Mother Teresa in some of his sermons (in a positive way).

While there are some we should have a very good idea of whether they are saved or not, it's not our job to look at every professing Christian and declare our view as to whether we think they are saved or not. Too often we spend time on declaring those in this or that church are or aren't saved; that public figure must be or must not be saved; most in that church in the other country are ______________.....

All the while we spend far too little time tending to our own walk, our families, and those within our own church. If our churches were actual families, as Scripture calls us to be, we would know, for the most part, what's what and who's who. Then we would know who we may be able to help, who may be able to help us; and this in spiritual as well as other matters.

I've seen churches where the pastor and congregation spend most of their time condemning the other Baptist church in town all the while they themselves are falling away and falling apart due to lack of attention.

There are indeed exceedingly more secular Christians in American than born again Christians. The percentage of born again Christians is probably fairly low. Even using the best methods they could come up with to try and separate born again Christians from others, polling and survey groups have a very difficult time getting to the truth. Some still suggest as high as 35% of the population is born again. Unfortunately, many pastors and Christian authors prefer to accept that since about three-fourths of the population identifies as Christian that must mean somewhere near that percentage actually are. It's more likely around the 10% area. So, if Christ calls His people home today America won't suddenly experience massive population loss, there won't be dozens of planes falling from the skies, scores of trains and vehicles crashing. businesses and utilities failing due to massive numbers of workers suddenly missing.

We need to build up ourselves, our families, our churches. We need to take the Gospel to the lost and when someone is born again we need to take them under our wings and disciple them or get them to someone who can do so, we need to get them into our churches or another sound church.

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It's not just evangelicals, I know of at least two IFB churches which speak well of the pope and the pastor quotes Mother Teresa in some of his sermons (in a positive way).

While there are some we should have a very good idea of whether they are saved or not, it's not our job to look at every professing Christian and declare our view as to whether we think they are saved or not. Too often we spend time on declaring those in this or that church are or aren't saved; that public figure must be or must not be saved; most in that church in the other country are ______________.....

All the while we spend far too little time tending to our own walk, our families, and those within our own church. If our churches were actual families, as Scripture calls us to be, we would know, for the most part, what's what and who's who. Then we would know who we may be able to help, who may be able to help us; and this in spiritual as well as other matters.

I've seen churches where the pastor and congregation spend most of their time condemning the other Baptist church in town all the while they themselves are falling away and falling apart due to lack of attention.

There are indeed exceedingly more secular Christians in American than born again Christians. The percentage of born again Christians is probably fairly low. Even using the best methods they could come up with to try and separate born again Christians from others, polling and survey groups have a very difficult time getting to the truth. Some still suggest as high as 35% of the population is born again. Unfortunately, many pastors and Christian authors prefer to accept that since about three-fourths of the population identifies as Christian that must mean somewhere near that percentage actually are. It's more likely around the 10% area. So, if Christ calls His people home today America won't suddenly experience massive population loss, there won't be dozens of planes falling from the skies, scores of trains and vehicles crashing. businesses and utilities failing due to massive numbers of workers suddenly missing.

We need to build up ourselves, our families, our churches. We need to take the Gospel to the lost and when someone is born again we need to take them under our wings and disciple them or get them to someone who can do so, we need to get them into our churches or another sound church.

We should spend time in distinguishing who may or may not be saved so we can see if we should focus on evangelizing the particular person or fellowshipping with the person. If someone is lost, I would not want to treat them as a brother.

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While there are some we should have a very good idea of whether they are saved or not, it's not our job to look at every professing Christian and declare our view as to whether we think they are saved or not. Too often we spend time on declaring those in this or that church are or aren't saved; that public figure must be or must not be saved; most in that church in the other country are ______________.....

 

Thanks for the orange lesson while the subject is an apple again John. The point is to witness to these deceived people being led by the lost or short-cutting soulwinners trying to give their own increases.

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Just remember that, at the end of the day, we are not capable of truly seeing what is inside a person. Only God can do that. We can make reasonable assumptions based on Scripture, but we cannot know who really is and isn't saved. I think some people, in the attempt to discern the heart (something only God can do), end up making additional rules and restrictions (i.e. "if they are really saved they wouldn't ___") that God has not established.

(Before assumptions are made about me for this statement, I should share that I have some terribly strict ideas of what is and isn't 'correct' behavior for a Christian, so I am not saying that rules and restrictions are wrong - just that they do not the heart reveal.)

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It is true that one can put all their time and effort into fleshly pursuits and still be saved but hardly the same thing that is being discussed right now. Where your treasure is (whether time, money or effort) that is where your heart is but those passages are not discussing rejecting Jesus AFTER you got saved.

Even backslidden a Christian will still know who the real God is or they never were born again to begin with. That is the point folks. Some of you folks are interjecting an apple into an orange discussion.

For some reason some don't get it but let me clarify a little: I am not talking about sin. I am talking about repentance and believing the Gospel. If actually accomplished by the Spirit, no one repents from it back to a false religion. No matter how much we want to think so because they are confused or whatever, they are not confused folks, they are lost.

Now, nothing says they cannot be saved later so I recommend you get the matter settled for sure if you are in that boat.

I have known multiple 1000s of saved people (serving and backslidden) and have never run across this kind of silly discussion before.

 

 

I agree it is a very silly discussion. God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can turn to a false religion is saying God is not powerful to keep a person in the faith, and are shortchanging God.

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I agree it is a very silly discussion. God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can turn to a false religion is saying God is not powerful to keep a person in the faith, and are shortchanging God.

I don't think it's as silly as all that. Firstly, there are places where the Bible speaks of fleshly desires as akin to idol worship (Col 3:5, Eph 5:5, Matt 6:24), which begs the question why we are treating idolatry of false Gods as the sin it's impossible for a Christian to commit while, say, love of money, is something that, according to Wretched "...one can put all their time and effort into ... and still be saved."

Secondly, your statement above taken to its logical conclusion implies the doctrine of sinless perfectionism, since we could ask it about all sin: "God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can [still sin] is saying God is not powerful to keep a person [from sinning], and are shortchanging God." So again, why say that about the sin of idolatry and not all sin?

Thirdly, John's made some good observations about how idolatry might work in practice in today's world that no-one has directly responded to with a 'yes, a Christian is capable of that' or 'no they're not'. Wretched keeps changing the subject so that he can accuse John of not sticking to it--his latest switcheroo is to accuse us all of reading "neo" books, of promoting easy-believism and of denying the existence of hell (seen anyone here do that?)--but actually it's John who's been sticking to the pertinent points, i.e. whether there are certain sins it's impossible for a Christian to commit. Oh yeah, and the easy-believism that's supposedly being 'refuted' here--who exactly has been a proponent of it on here, and where?

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Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act_8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

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I don't think it's as silly as all that. Firstly, there are places where the Bible speaks of fleshly desires as akin to idol worship (Col 3:5, Eph 5:5, Matt 6:24), which begs the question why we are treating idolatry of false Gods as the sin it's impossible for a Christian to commit while, say, love of money, is something that, according to Wretched "...one can put all their time and effort into ... and still be saved."

Secondly, your statement above taken to its logical conclusion implies the doctrine of sinless perfectionism, since we could ask it about all sin: "God changes those who become saved. Those who say a saved person can [still sin] is saying God is not powerful to keep a person [from sinning], and are shortchanging God." So again, why say that about the sin of idolatry and not all sin?

Thirdly, John's made some good observations about how idolatry might work in practice in today's world that no-one has directly responded to with a 'yes, a Christian is capable of that' or 'no they're not'. Wretched keeps changing the subject so that he can accuse John of not sticking to it--his latest switcheroo is to accuse us all of reading "neo" books, of promoting easy-believism and of denying the existence of hell (seen anyone here do that?)--but actually it's John who's been sticking to the pertinent points, i.e. whether there are certain sins it's impossible for a Christian to commit. Oh yeah, and the easy-believism that's supposedly being 'refuted' here--who exactly has been a proponent of it on here, and where?

No friend, no accusations but accurate observations. As time passes and the day approaches will there be real faith on the earth? not much.

Still though, the points John is making have no relevance to the discussion. Nowhere has sin been the issue in any of my posts or anyone else's I see but that is ok, if some don't get it now, perhaps you will sometime, no worries. Loving the world and the things in the world are not the same as confusing the things of the world as a god consciously. There is no other God but Me is the first thing you learn when saved or you didn't get saved...and you don't need discipleship classes to figure this part out...it ain't that hard folks.

I was right earlier, it is a silly discussion so carry on if so inclined, I won't

 

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