Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.

[Invicta]

The shout is for the believers only. The world does not hear the shout nor the trump of God for the dead saints to rise and the living saints to rise.

As I brought out previously:

1. As a thief, the Lord Jesus takes His jewels and leaves, the lost peoples of the world do not know what happened.

2. The Anti-Christ will tell the world a lie to explain away the rapture; 2 Thessalonians 2:11, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

3. Until we hear the actual shout and trumpet it will be secret even to the Christian: "Known unto God only."

4.   The coming of Christ in 1 Thessalonians is a great comfort.

5. According to Paul, no horses, nor army, are mentioned in 1 Thessalonnians 4:13-18 as it is not a military action.

6. The coming of the Lord in Revelation 1:7 and 19:11-21 is witnessed by the whole world and the whole world  and His coming is a military action to destroy His enemies.

7. There is no rising of the dead in Revelation 1:7 and 19:11-21. In fact, the world mourns. There is no comfort.

8. There are not trumpets mentioned, nor shouts, in Revelation 1:7 and 19:11-21

In conclusion, the coming of the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is only for the dead and living saints only, it is in secret, and is different in time, actions, scope, and purpose from the coming of the Lord Jesus in Revelation 1:7 and 19:11-21

I am waiting for the trumpet to blow and the shout to rise! It may come today, tomorrow or the next year.  

Alan

​So the shout is a whisper.  I don't think so.

When the angel shouts, it will be heard by all.

[DaveW]

​So the shout is a whisper.  I don't think so.

When the angel shouts, it will be heard by all.

That's not what he said.

[Invicta]

That's not what he said.

​No, but that is the implication of what he said.

[Alan]

DaveW is correct and the scriptures are very clear. When the trumpet from  the archangel sounds only, may I repeat ,only, the saints will be able to hear. The Lord Jesus will first call the dead saints by their own personal name, exactly like Lazarus, and then the Lord Jesus will personally call every living saint by name, and we shall rise to meet the Lord Jesus in the clouds. All of this will be accomplished in the twinkling of the eye. The twinkling of the eye takes less than one second. I can find no scripture that say, or even indicates, that any of the lost peoples of the world will hear the sound of the trumpet of the archangel.

John81 and Mountain Christian,

I do not know what these strange sounds coming the sky are coming from.  I have heard of them in the news and I want to thank both of you for bringing them to the attention of everybody. I cannot perceive how these strange sounds can be related to the trumpets of the archangel of God. I am sure that some of our Charismatic brethren will try and relate them to scripture. But, I will not. Maybe one of these days some scientist will be able to explain them.

[DaveW]

​No, but that is the implication of what he said.

You have misrepresented what he has said. 

He has explained a little more - his point of it being a secret coming is correct, although I think he has been short of the full conclusion.

As a thief, there is no prior warning - he comes secretly. No thief announces his arrival.

But when he has completed his task, it is no longer secret.

If you disagree with his premise that only saints will hear his shout, then show it by Scripture.

But after He has come for His saints, there is no way it will remain secret. This is implied in Alan's statement, but not clearly stated.

It must however be true, for there is no way that the saints all being removed from Earth at the same time would go unnoticed.

There is absolutely no statement, overt nor implied, that the shout will be a whisper. This is a misrepresentation.

[Alan]

As I said a couple of times previously, and as DaveW wrote, the scriptures plainly state that the Lord Jesus comes back as a, "thief." A thief comes in total secrecy and only until he has left with the valuables does any body know he was there.  Thank you DaveW.

As I wrote previoulsy, in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 states, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

In order to explain the disappearance (in the Rapture), the Anti-Christ will lie to the peoples of this earth why millions of people disapprered. The peoples of this world will believe the lie of the Anti-Christ. The Rapture, even after it occurs, will be a secret from the peoples of this world. God will allow the lie to be believed due to the ungodly sins of the peoples of this world. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Alan
spelling

[John81]

Can someone post where it says the trumpet will sound and everyone will hear Jesus call their own name?

 

[Alan]

1. Concerning a trumpet will sound.

1 Thessalonians 4:16b says, "... and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

2. Concerning the Lord Jesus calling us by name.

The Lord Jesus, our shepherd, said, "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." John 10:3

Furthermore, the Lord Jesus continued His discourse by plainly saying, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16

The Lord Jesus knows my personal name, and the personal name of every sheep in His pasture. When my Shepherd, my Friend, calls me home, by death or by the Rapture, the Lord Jesus will call me by my name.

In John 11 we have the great resurrection discourse of the Lord Jesus. In this great discourse of the resurrection of the dead saints we find that Lazarus is called a friend by the Lord Jesus. "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." John 11:11

Jesus plainly stated in John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11 and the raising of Lazarus is a picture, a type of, and an example of the  Lord Jesus calling His sleeping (dead), saints out of the grave as taught by Paul the Apostle in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. When the Lord Jesus called Lazarus out of the grave ( a type of the coming of the Lord Jesus for His Bride, the Church), He called Lazarus by his own, personal name; "Lazarus, come forth." John 11:43. Glory Hallelujah! Praise the Holy name of Jesus!

A Sad Note.

I personally feel sorry for those saints who believe that the Lord Jesus will not call them by their name when He comes again. If a saint does not want to believe that the Lord will call him by name when he comes; I will not argue nor debate the issue. It is not a doctrine that brethren should verbally debate over. It is every saints perogative to either believe it or not. But, to me, I find a great comfort in knowing that the Lord Jesus knows me, and will call me by my name when He comes to take me out of this sin cursed world.

Enoch Genesis 6:21-24 and Hebrews11:5

and God's other Friends.

Let us consider Enoch for another example. Enoch is a type, or an example of, the saints who will be alive as Paul the Apostle taught when the Lord Jesus comes to take His Bride home in the Rapture. Enoch walked with God. Enoch was a friend of God like Abraham was a friend of God. God called Abram by his first name and then  changed it to Abraham. God calls all of His friends, and saints, by name. Please see Genesis 22:1 Moses in Exodus 3:4 and Samuel in 1 Samuel 3:10; et tal. God even had His angels call  backsliden Lot by his own name: Genesis 19:5

The Lord Jesus - Our Friend.

The Lord Jesus is my Friend and the Friend of every saint. Like the Father, the Lord Jesus calls His friends by name.   "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." John 15:15 The Lord Jesus, (as God calls His friends by name), calls His friends by name. When one individual has a close relationship with another individual they call each other friends. Is that not true?

Special Friend Note.

Remember the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? Have you ever thought why the Lord Jesus mentioned Lazarus by name but did not mention the rich man by name? Lazarus was an Old Testament saint and a friend of God. Therefore, the Lord Jesus called Lazarus by name. The rich man? He never trusted in God and therefore not a friend. So, the Lord Jesus did not call him as a friend. I understand that the Lord Jesus is a friend of sinners; but, they are not friends in the sense of a close relationship.

I hope that the above examples will help you in your walk with Christ. And, that you will find comfort in the fact that one day, hopefully today, when the Lord Jesus comes, you will hear the Lord Jesus call your name and then say, "Come up hither!" 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Alan
spelling

[John81]

1. Concerning a trumpet will sound.

1 Thessalonians 4:16b says, "... and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

2. Concerning the Lord Jesus calling us by name.

The Lord Jesus, our shepherd, said, "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." John 10:3

Furthermore, the Lord Jesus continued His discourse by plainly saying, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16

The Lord Jesus knows my personal name, and the personal name of every sheep in His pasture. When my Shepherd, my Friend, calls me home, by death or by the Rapture, the Lord Jesus will call me by my name.

In John 11 we have the great resurrection discourse of the Lord Jesus. In this great discourse of the resurrection of the dead saints we find that Lazarus is called a friend by the Lord Jesus. "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." John 11:11

Jesus plainly stated in John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11 and the raising of Lazarus is a picture, a type of, and an example of the  Lord Jesus calling His sleeping (dead), saints out of the grave as taught by Paul the Apostle in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. When the Lord Jesus called Lazarus out of the grave ( a type of the coming of the Lord Jesus for His Bride, the Church), He called Lazarus by his own, personal name; "Lazarus, come forth." John 11:43. Glory Hallelujah! Praise the Holy name of Jesus!

A Sad Note.

I personally feel sorry for those saints who believe that the Lord Jesus will not call them by their name when He comes again. If a saint does not want to believe that the Lord will call him by name when he comes; I will not argue nor debate the issue. It is not a doctrine that brethren should verbally debate over. It is every saints perogative to either believe it or not. But, to me, I find a great comfort in knowing that the Lord Jesus knows me, and will call me by my name when He comes to take me out of this sin cursed world.

Enoch Genesis 6:21-24 and Hebrews11:5

and God's other Friends.

Let us consider Enoch for another example. Enoch is a type, or an example of, the saints who will be alive as Paul the Apostle taught when the Lord Jesus comes to take His Bride home in the Rapture. Enoch walked with God. Enoch was a friend of God like Abraham was a friend of God. God called Abram by his first name and then  changed it to Abraham. God calls all of His friends, and saints, by name. Please see Genesis 22:1 Moses in Exodus 3:4 and Samuel in 1 Samuel 3:10; et tal. God even had His angels call  backsliden Lot by his own name: Genesis 19:5

The Lord Jesus - Our Friend.

The Lord Jesus is my Friend and the Friend of every saint. Like the Father, the Lord Jesus calls His friends by name.   "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." John 15:15 The Lord Jesus, (as God calls His friends by name), calls His friends by name. When one individual has a close relationship with another individual they call each other friends. Is that not true?

Special Friend Note.

Remember the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? Have you ever thought why the Lord Jesus mentioned Lazarus by name but did not mention the rich man by name? Lazarus was an Old Testament saint and a friend of God. Therefore, the Lord Jesus called Lazarus by name. The rich man? He never trusted in God and therefore not a friend. So, the Lord Jesus did not call him as a friend. I understand that the Lord Jesus is a friend of sinners; but, they are not friends in the sense of a close relationship.

I hope that the above examples will help you in your walk with Christ. And, that you will find comfort in the fact that one day, hopefully today, when the Lord Jesus comes, you will hear the Lord Jesus call your name and then say, "Come up hither!" 

​Thank you for taking the time to put that together. I'm familiar with these, and the extrapolation made from this. As a previous post read it seemed as if perhaps there was something I may had missed somewhere with a verse more directly stating as certain fact when the trump sounds our names will be called to which we will hear and respond.

I don't discount that it's probable we will each hear our names called; I was just wondering if I had somehow managed to miss a verse which emphatically says so.

 

[John81]

We can relax now since I just read how the Rapture will be in September (possibly this one, but maybe another one) with the Great Tribulation to follow in March. So, as long as we are ready anytime during a September we should be good to go. Some guy says all the recent earthquakes and the blood moons leads him to believe this coming September is likely Rapture time but he's left the door open to perhaps be a September in another year. Why September I don't know.

It must be true, I read it on Facebook!

With so many different people trying to relate every current even to end times prophecy it's little wonder some have turned a deaf ear to end times matters.

Studies which focus upon what Scripture says, without trying to fit daily news reports into the verses, have benefit, but the constant speculations and attempts to place every news item for the past several decades into those verses is taking things in unfruitful directions.

I appreciate the careful study of Revelation itself.

[John81]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We read here that the Lord shall descend with a shout. What is this shout?

Also, there will be the voice of the archangel. What is the meaning of this?

Then there is the trump of God. Often I've heard this trumpet sounding is our (the dead in Christ as well as those alive in Christ) call to come to Christ.

If we consider First Corinthians 15:51-52 as referring to this same event, we see this all happening in the twinkling of an eye.

Interesting that prior to discussing the Lord calling His people forth, we are given this important instruction in the previous chapter of First Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 3:12-13

¹² And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

¹³ To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Why does it seem most often we overlook, ignore or simply fail to give close heed to this? Are these not key admonitions?

[Alan]

John81,

You are entirely correct in your reasoning why people, (good Christian folk), are turned off studying the Book of Revelation. So many people do turn a deaf ear due to a lot of "teachers" that try and fit every bit of news into prophecy that it is destroying a true and sincere study of Revelation. Sometimes these "teachers" sensationalize the news and apply every odd peice of news for money (to sell their materials), and the desire for religious recognition (fame).  I have tried to steer away from this style of teaching.

Also, thank you for quoting 1 Thessalonians 3:12 and 13. It is applicable and a blessing to me and I am sure to all of the brethren.

Covenanter,

I do not have an answer nor do I think it wise (nor appropriate), for me to try to discover an answer.

Brethren,

I sincerely hope that the study of Revelation chapter 19-22 thus far has been a blessing and an encouragement to all of you. Even though sometimes good brethren disagree on some of the prophecies involved I believe that it is for our good to sift through all of the material available and realize that the end time events prophesied in the Old Testament prophets and the fulfullment written therein the Book of Revelation is for our benefit. I also appreciate the fine spirit of discussion among the brethren and hope as we finish the last weeks studies our understanding of the end time events will increase and our discussions will be fruitful.

Alan  

 

[Invicta]

As I said a couple of times previously, and as DaveW wrote, the scriptures plainly state that the Lord Jesus comes back as a, "thief." A thief comes in total secrecy and only until he has left with the valuables does any body know he was there.  Thank you DaveW.

As I wrote previoulsy, in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 states, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

In order to explain the disappearance (in the Rapture), the Anti-Christ will lie to the peoples of this earth why millions of people disapprered. The peoples of this world will believe the lie of the Anti-Christ. The Rapture, even after it occurs, will be a secret from the peoples of this world. God will allow the lie to be believed due to the ungodly sins of the peoples of this world. 

​A thief arrives in the night but his coming is not known in advance.  If the house owner is woken by a broken window, he will here it,

We knew someone who caught a thief in the night and called the police, and held him for the police to arrive. The police did not arrive, and the following morning after the thief had escaped, they said they could not find the house in the dark as it was too remote, about 2 miles from a town.  

But to get back to the subject.  The scripture says it is a shout.  A shout is a shout.  The word "shout" is used to emphasise that it will be heard by all, and you are being disingenuous to say that the shout of an angel will be heard by all.  

[Alan]

The shout is a shout. But, the shout is only to be heard by all of the believers.

Also, I am of the persuasion that I am sincere and not disingenuous. God is my judge in this matter.

Due to the fact that the coming of the Lord Jesus for the chruch (the Rapture), is a one time event there are no direct correlations in the sciptures to give us all of the appropriate details. I would like to bring out two similar incidents though that may, repeat, may shed light on the "shout" and who may hear what.

The Voice, a Shout, Not Understood.

In John 12:28-30 we have the following incident concerning God, from heaven, using His voice to glorify His son, the Lord Jesus, "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, this voice came not because of me, but for your sakes." John 12:28-30

Please notice. As the words that God spoke from heaven were intended for the Lord Jesus; to glorify His name, only the Lord Jesus understood what God said. The people heard the voice as "thunder." The people who were in the area heard thunder, but did not hear an actual voice, nor did they hear distinct words. Some even ventured to guess that an angel spoke to the Lord Jesus.

When God spoke it was as thunder to the people. May I dare to venture to say: God shouted. Cannot a thunderous voice be considered a shout? But, only the person who the shout was directed to heard the words in a distinct manner. 

Paul the Apostle

Please bear with me as I bring out another incident, similar too, but not necessarily exactly alike, the Rapture. In the Book of Acts we have three accounts of the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ to Saul (hereafter called Paul for clarity of thought), on the road to Damascus; Acts 9:1-20; 22:1-16 and 26:12-20. In all three accounts the Lord Jesus appeared to Paul only and spoke to Paul only. Please bear in mind that a huge party of people was travelling with Paul. Even though the others saw a light they did not see Jesus and even though they heard voice they did not hear any distinct words. In fact, in Acts 22:9 we hear this interesting fact that may help us in this discussion. "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him [the Lord Jesus] that spake to me." Even though the Lord Jesus was talking to Paul in the immediate presence of Paul's travelling companions; the travelling companions did not hear the voice of the Lord Jesus.  Is that incident not only interesting but applicable to our discussion on the, "shout?"

It is clearly obvious that the Lord Jesus has the ability to shout, and have the trump of the archangel sound, and only the dead and live saints hear.

Conclusion.

So, in my estimation, and limited knowledge of hearing the actual voice of God, may I venture to say that when, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout..." 1 Thessalonians 4:16a, only those people who are the intended persons that Jesus wants to hear; will hear the shout. All of the other peoples of the world, the anti-Christ, the lost religious crowd, and the rest of the lost, will not "hear" the shout.  If the lost people of this world do hear a "shout" I would not be surprised if they mistake it for "thunder."

Again, I cannot find a relevant verse that even indicates the lost people of the world will hear the shout when Jesus comes in the Rapture.

 The Strong Delusion.

When the Rapture does occur millions of people will immediately depart the earth. When we depart there will be countless automobile accidents, work place accidents, airplane accidents, bus and truck accidents, a few (probably not too many!) of our politicians will be missing, untold numbers of militiary service men missing, nuclear power plant accidents, ships with crew members missing, etc... all over the globe. Somehow, all of these people and the resultant accidents must be accounted for.

Because the lost people did not hear the shout (clearly, if at all), somehow, someone, will have to expain what did happen. The Anti-Christ will deceive the world with a lie to account for the millions of people missing in an instant of time. Hence, the, strong delusion," of 2 Thessalonians 2:11, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie." 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Alan
spelling

[John81]

When the Rapture does occur millions of people will immediately depart the earth. When we depart there will be countless automobile accidents, work place accidents, airplane accidents, bus and truck accidents, a few (probably not too many!) of our politicians will be missing, untold numbers of militiary service men missing, nuclear power plant accidents, ships with crew members missing, etc... all over the globe. Somehow, all of these people and the resultant accidents must be accounted for. The Anti-Christ will deceive the world with a lie to acount for the millions of people missing in an instant of time.

​I know we've probably all seen the drawings and movie depictions of such but I really wonder just how much of a disaster will be caused by a rapture. The above scenario would require a large number of Christians, many in key positions, for there to be wide scale disaster.

While I've heard some preachers claim believe 50-80 percent of Americans will disappear in the rapture that seems like a grossly unrealistically high percentage.

How biblically sound full of born again Christians are most churches in your (anyone) area? Even in the best of churches there are some unsaved folks sitting in the pews. In most church it seems most folks are unsaved; sometimes the pastors are unsaved as well.

It's estimated only 1% of Europeans are born again Christians. If true, any impact of rapture will likely be limited. In America the percentage of professing Christians is shrinking and when Christians pollsters have done their best to weed out "christians" who aren't born again in Christ, the numbers they have come up with are rather low.

Most missionary reports from areas where it's said many are coming to Christ are in remote regions, undeveloped regions, areas where an actual large percentage of the population could disappear and basically go unnoticed.

A rapture may not have anywhere near the dramatic impact we've been led to believe. Considering how many millions are kidnapped, murdered, stolen away and such each year around the world, it's possible the rapture could easily be played off as a massive criminal enterprise. It would be easy for a world ruler to declare such, then raid a known major sex slave trader where most were killed (so they can't testify in court) and some slaves rescued and that declared then the news cycle moves on as it does today.

Most people today already believe the lies fed to them by the media so if further delusion is added to the masses it won't take much effort to feed them a lie to explain scattered people around the world missing. Not to mention, much the story could be withheld by the media and governments as so many are today. In such a case, many around the world may be unaware of missing folks around the world and only aware of a few in their area or immediate new coverage area.

This is another reason I wish books and movies didn't use so much sensationalism. Even if someone is aware of the potential of a rapture, if they are expecting something like 9-11 on a worldwide scale and no such thing happens, they may miss noticing it with or without being further deluded.