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Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.


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Revelation 19:1-6 “The Hallelujah Chorus.” Verse 1, “And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord

Brethren, I want to thank all of you for the discussions, comments, and fellowship throughout this study. I also want to thank the moderators for their cooperation throughout the study and s

Invicta, The scriptures clearly differentiate between the Judgment Seat of Christ and the White Throne of Judgment. Let us follow the admonition of Paul the Apostle when he said, "Study to shew thysel

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It was a very wise move to start such a study with a post we can all agree with :grouphug: 

It means we can move forward with a positive approach. 

Comments on presentation: it would be helpful to clearly separate Scripture from comment. I suggest you block & Ctrl/I Scripture to italicize it &block & Ctrl/B to embolden selected phrases. Also I have tried to tell Matt that we can't indent - which would be helpful for the same reason. And now the colours have disappeared. 

 

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Revelation 19: 7-10, “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb.”

Verse 7, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Verse 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Verse 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Verse 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of the brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Very Important notes: At this point in our study of the prophetic events in the Book of Revelation we need to make sure of four key points in the interpretation, and order of events, of prophecy:

  1. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 All of the various religions, cults, false prophets, et al, can ‘divide’ the scriptures; but they do not have the spiritual discernment to ‘rightly’ divide the scriptures. “ 1 Corinthians 2:13 & 14, “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” The confusion concerning the fulfillment of the prophetic prophesies of the prophets is due to corrupt doctrine in the churches, denominational bias, and of evil influences. “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all of the saints.” 1 Corinthians 14:33

  2. “Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.” 1 Corinthians 10:32. Concerning prophecy, there are specific promises and prophesies given to the elect sons of Israel; specific prophecies concerning the unbelieving Gentile nations, and specific promises to the elect in the church of God (believing Jews and Gentiles in the Church Age).

  3. “… for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 19:10 Amen!

  4. The prophetic prophecies by the prophets in the Old Testament concerning the restoration of Israel, the coming of the Messiah, and the times of ‘Jacob’s Trouble,’ (the Tribulation Period)and the prophesies of the Lord Jesus, particularly Matthew chapter 24 & 25, the prophecies of Paul, Peter and John are not always written in the order of sequence. The proper order of sequences of the prophecies is ‘revealed’ in the Book of Revelation. Because God is the God of order, “Let all things be done decently and in order.” 1 Corinthians 14:10, God gave us the proper order of prophetic events clearly delineated in the Book of Revelation.

“…the marriage of the Lamb is come…”

In the Old Testament the wife of Jehovah is the Jewish nation of Israel. In the Church Age the nation of Israel is pictured as an adulterous wife: Please study Jeremiah and Hosea.

The Lamb is the Lord Jesus Christ. “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” John 1:29

In the New Testament the wife of the Lord Jesus is the church. I must add; the church is comprised of born again Jews and Gentiles who are saved, not those necessarily belonging to some, ‘church.’ The book of Ephesians gives us an in-depth description of the spiritual relationship between the church and the Saviour. Particularly: Ephesians 12:4, 22 & 23; 2:6 & 7, and 5:23-33

“…and his wife hath made herself ready.”

The ‘wife’ is the church. The reason why the church is not mentioned during the events of the Great Tribulation Period, or the ‘Times of Jacob’s trouble,’ is due to the fact that the church has been in heaven since Revelation 4:1. The church, during the Tribulation Period, Revelation chapter 6-18, has been being made ‘ready’ for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Almost without exception, every bride, in every country, in every age, is secretly taken away to be made ‘ready’ for her marriage. In Revelation 4:1 The church was secretly taken out of the world at the ‘Rapture,’ in order to be made ‘ready’ for her bridegroom.

This being made ‘ready’ is primarily a reference to the cleansing of heretical doctrine in the church and the giving of rewards to the Church Age saints at the, ‘Judgment Seat of Christ,’ as spoken by Paul in Romans 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:8-15, and 2 Corinthians 5:10. Salvation and service are two different aspects in the Christian life.

Paul wrote this testimony shortly before his death, “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.” 2 Timothy 4:6

And, “That he [Christ] might sanctify and cleanse it [the church] with the washing by the word.” Ephesians 5:26. Brethren, please take this lesson as a friendly word of warning. If you are not going to be cleansed from your sins and from corrupt doctrine while you live on the earth by the word of God, the Lord Jesus will personally cleanse every Christian of the corrupt doctrines, corrupt Bibles, corrupt associations, and corrupt behavior, at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The Lord Jesus performed one act at the Temple of God at the beginning of His earthly ministry and at the end of His earthly ministry that all of the saints need to take very careful heed. The Lord Jesus ‘cleansed’ the Temple of God. One day the Lord Jesus will again ‘cleanse’ the Temple of God. “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” 1 Corinthians 6:19

“…for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”  

  1. Righteousness in Salvation. When a person believes on the Lord Jesus as Saviour he is made ‘righteous’ in the sight of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21

  2. Righteousness in Daily Holiness. In our daily walk with the Lord Jesus we need to be ‘righteous’ in our thoughts, our behavior, our companionship, and relationship with our fellow man. 2 Corinthians 6: 11-18, 2 Timothy 2:19-21, and the rest of the writings of the Apostles in the New Testament. 1 Peter1:16, “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” Some of the saints on God’s green earth are not holy and therefore, not ‘ready.’ All of us though will be made ‘ready,’ or ‘holy,’ in preparation for our marriage with the Lamb. Glory Hallelujah!

    The Lord Jesus wants a ‘chaste virgin’ for His bride: 2 Corinthians 11:2

“…which are called…”

Every person who has answered the, ‘call of salvation,’ will be ‘called,’ to the marriage supper of the Lamb. The ‘calling’ of the saints to the marriage supper was made when the Lord Jesus ‘called’ the saints into heaven. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16 & 17

“…See thou do it not…”

The Apostle John mistakenly fell down to worship this man of God. The man of God, as any true man of God, told him not to do it. If the Pope, the Cardinals, and the Priests of the Roman Catholic Church were true men of God (which they are not in any sense of the word), then they would not allow people to fall at their feet. It is Satanic for a man to allow another man to fall at his feet in worship and not to correct him for his error.

“…for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

All of the prophesies of the Old Testament, and, the prophesies of the New Testament, point to some aspect of the character, work, testimony, and person of the Lord Jesus as the Messiah.

 

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I was hoping to see other replies before responding. Your very important notes need comment.

Very Important notes: At this point in our study of the prophetic events in the Book of Revelation we need to make sure of four key points in the interpretation, and order of events, of prophecy:

  1. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15 All of the various religions, cults, false prophets, et al, can ‘divide’ the scriptures; but they do not have the spiritual discernment to ‘rightly’ divide the scriptures. “ 1 Corinthians 2:13 & 14, “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” The confusion concerning the fulfillment of the prophetic prophesies of the prophets is due to corrupt doctrine in the churches, denominational bias, and of evil influences. “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all of the saints.” 1 Corinthians 14:33  

  2. “Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.” 1 Corinthians 10:32. Concerning prophecy, there are specific promises and prophesies given to the elect sons of Israel; specific prophecies concerning the unbelieving Gentile nations, and specific promises to the elect in the church of God (believing Jews and Gentiles in the Church Age).

  3. “… for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 19:10 Amen!

  4. The prophetic prophecies by the prophets in the Old Testament concerning the restoration of Israel, the coming of the Messiah, and the times of ‘Jacob’s Trouble,’ (the Tribulation Period)and the prophesies of the Lord Jesus, particularly Matthew chapter 24 & 25, the prophecies of Paul, Peter and John are not always written in the order of sequence. The proper order of sequences of the prophecies is‘revealed’ in the Book of Revelation. Because God is the God of order, “Let all things be done decently and in order.” 1 Corinthians 14:10, God gave us the proper order of prophetic events clearly delineated in the Book of Revelation.

1. As we are taught by the Holy Ghost, & given spiritual discernment, how can believers possible disagree on matters of Scripture interpretation? And if I disagree with you, is one of us confused, for the reasons given, or do we disagree because our interpretation is not inspired? The first word is STUDY & as we study Scripture, comparing related texts in their context, we do come to a spiritual understanding. The trouble with INTERPRETATION is that if interpretation is necessary for right understanding of a passage, we are not accepting the Scripture in a literal way. As spiritual discernment is needed, so interpretation is needed, & interpretations are our own, & we should not claim because we are believers that the Holy Ghost has given us the true interpretation. 

2. 1 Cor. 10:32 is not a prophecy context. It concerns food & eating with unbelievers. In the immediate context, if an unbeliever tells you the meat being served has been offered to idols, don't eat it for his sake. Don't serve pork to Jews, nor beef to Hindus, or non-halal to Muslims. 

3. Now Rev. 19:10 does need interpretation - we are not all prophets. 

4. The obvious time/context interpretation of Jacob's trouble Jer. 30:7 concerns the events of Esther. If Revelation gives the events of the second coming of Christ in "proper order" why does Jesus come in several chapters? e.g. Rev. 1:7  Rev. 6:12-17  Most interpreters consider these are reiterations, rather than sequential. Jesus gives the details clearly in Mat. 24 so that believers will be able to take the appropriate action when the see the prophesied events happening. 

 

 

 

 

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Revelation 19: 7-10, “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb.”

Verse 7, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Verse 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Verse 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Verse 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of the brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

 

“…the marriage of the Lamb is come…”

In the Old Testament the wife of Jehovah is the Jewish nation of Israel. In the Church Age the nation of Israel is pictured as an adulterous wife: Please study Jeremiah and Hosea.

The Lamb is the Lord Jesus Christ. “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” John 1:29

In the New Testament the wife of the Lord Jesus is the church. I must add; the church is comprised of born again Jews and Gentiles who are saved, not those necessarily belonging to some, ‘church.’ The book of Ephesians gives us an in-depth description of the spiritual relationship between the church and the Saviour. Particularly: Ephesians 12:422 & 23; 2:6 & 7, and 5:23-33

 

I believe in looking for the simplest interpretation. I have seen interpretations that refer to Israel as the wife of Jehovah & the Church as the bride of Christ. I hope you are not following that line. I believe that ALL God's redeemed people are in that husband-betrothed relationship. Under the Old Covenant, Israel as a nation is pictured frequently as an adulterous wife, whoring after other gods. The faithful were always in a personal relationship with the LORD, living by faith. 

 

Under the New Covenant, the relationship again is always personal, & that covenant takes in all believers, including the OC believers. They were not saved apart from Christ. All believers - all the redeemed look forward to the glorious consummation of our relationship with our Saviour God. I don't think there is any separation of church & believing Israel under the NC. We are "my people" as expressed in Rev. 21:1-3 The husband-wife analogy in Ephesians applies through Scripture. As does the following injunction to make ourselves ready - by faith & obedience. Mat. 24:42-47 & Mat. 25:1-13 

 

A possible reason for interpretation disagreements is that words, including Scripture, are necessarily sequential, even if the events being described are concurrent.   

 

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Praise the Lord! There is going to be a lot of rejoicing and praise God in heaven! If you are not a shoutin’ Baptist down here on earth; you will be one in heaven! All, glory, praise, honour and power belongs to God Almighty!

AMEN!

 

The Roman Catholic Church has a mixture of true and false doctrines, pagan ceremonies and Christian ideals, it claims to be ‘Christian,’ and the, ‘only true church.’ But, it is full of corrupting doctrines and practices designed to fool the saint and the religious sinner.

AMEN!

Every new version of the scriptures from the Revised Version of 1881 is a corrupt bible. 

Question...just for consideration. 

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Do you ever witness using your own words?

 

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1Timothy115,

As you suggested, I considered your application of Ephesians 4:29 to my comments. And, in response, I fail to understand you application of Ephesians 4:29 with the quote that you took off of my study.

I did mention that every new Bible starting from the Revised Version of 1881 is a corrupt version: and they are. Paul the Apostle, in a direct reference to the corruption of the scriptures in his day and age plainly wrote, "For we not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." 2 Corinthians 2:17 And translator who takes away or adds to the written word of God is corrupting the scriptures. so I was correct in my reference to the new version of the scriptures as being corrupt.

In reference to the Roman Catholic Church I did mention the '...corrupting doctrines and practices...' Among many errors, the Roman Catholic Church promotes worship of images; which is expressly forbidden by God throughout the Old Testament. In Exodus 4:15 and 16 God says, "Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female." God Himself said that the worshipping of images (such as is prevalent in the Roman Catholic Church), is 'corruption.' So  was correct in my reference to the idolatrous worship in the Roman Catholic Church as corrupt.

Furthermore, you need to get a good concordance and study the word 'corrupt,' 'corrupted,' corrupters,' 'corrupted,' corrupeth,' corrupting,' 'corruption,' and corruptly,' in the scriptures. You will discover that when I wrote the above comments it was proper in speech and in scriptural context. 

I would also like to suggest that you read and study thoroughly, "The Two Babylons," by Alexander Hislop. In, "The Two Babylons," by  Hislop thoroughly, and scholarly, documents the pagan ceremonies and some of the corrupted doctrines within the Roman Catholic Church that we do not have time and space to mention in this thread.

You mentioned, "Do you ever witness using your own words?" The implication that I got from that question, and your reference to Ephesians 4:29, is that I use corrupt speech in my witnessing.  I do not feel that to respond to that question is appropriate to this thread. I will though, when I revise the above lesson on Revelation, clarify my reasoning for using the word, 'corrupt.'

Thank you for your comments.

 

 

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Coventanter,

I do hope that the following reply to your comments will be of a help to not only both of us but to other brethren that have a desire to learn the prophetic truth of the Book of Revelation. In the followhing post the blue comments are yours and the red comments are my replies.

As we are taught by the Holy Ghost, & given spiritual discernment, how can believers possible disagree on matters of Scripture interpretation? And if I disagree with you, is one of us confused, for the reasons given, or do we disagree because our interpretation is not inspired? The first word is STUDY & as we study Scripture, comparing related texts in their context, we do come to a spiritual understanding. The trouble with INTERPRETATION is that if interpretation is necessary for right understanding of a passage, we are not accepting the Scripture in a literal way. As spiritual discernment is needed, so interpretation is needed, & interpretations are our own, & we should not claim because we are believers that the Holy Ghost has given us the true interpretation. 

As I stated in the, “Four Points of Interpretation,” believers disagree due to numerous reasons; denominational bias, etc... The problem lies with individual; it is not the problem with the scripture. “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture if of any private interpretation.” 2 Peter 1:20. Private interpretation is common among many different churches and brethren for many reasons. To me, and to most of the Independent Baptists that I associate with, we find the Book of Revelation gives us a clear understanding of Old Testament promises and can confidently say, "thus saith the Lord."

  1. 1 Cor. 10:32 is not a prophecy context. It concerns food & eating with unbelievers. In the immediate context, if an unbeliever tells you the meat being served has been offered to idols, don't eat it for his sake. Don't serve pork to Jews, nor beef to Hindus, or non-halal to Muslims. 

Maybe a more thorough study of 1 Corinthians 10 will help your understanding. To limit the three divisions of classes of people mentioned (the Jew, the Gentile, and the Church), to food and eating is not correct and not in context with 1 Corinthians chapter 10. The context of 1 Corinthians 10 is as follows: Verse 1-10 is clearly referring to the Jews; verse 11-18 Paul interprets the context of verse 1-10, the Jews, to the Church of God; and in verse 19-31 Paul is at that point dealing the unbelieving Gentiles with the eating of food offered to idols. In conclusion, verse 31-33 tells us plainly the three divisions of peoples: the Jew, the (unbelieving) Gentiles, and the church of God (saved Jews and Gentiles). Verse 32 is dealing with the three classes of people and not just the eating of food offered to idols. Therefore, my post stands. I may though clarify, and support it with other pertinent scriptures, in the future.

  1. Now Rev. 19:10 does need interpretation - we are not all prophets. 

The prophetic prophesies of the Old Testament prophets have to do with some aspect of the Lord Jesus as the coming Messiah: the death, burial and Resurrection of the Messiah, the one and only effectual sacrifice of the Messiah for the justification of the sinner, the Person and Character of the Messiah, the Millennial Kingdom of the Messiah as King of the Jews, and the eternal Priesthood of the Messiah. Hopefully, that will further clarify it. If not, maybe you, or one of the brethren, can be of assistance.

  1. The obvious time/context interpretation of Jacob's trouble Jer. 30:7 concerns the events of Esther. If Revelation gives the events of the second coming of Christ in "proper order" why does Jesus come in several chapters? e.g. Rev. 1:7  Rev. 6:12-17  Most interpreters consider these are reiterations, rather than sequential. Jesus gives the details clearly in Mat. 24 so that believers will be able to take the appropriate action when the see the prophesied events happening. 

Jeremiah 30:3, “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.” Israel is still, “...wandering among the nations... Hosea 9:17, out of the land of promise. One day, as recorded in the Book of Revelation, God will bring them back to the land of promise as Jeremiah prophesied.

Jeremiah 30:7, “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.”

“...so that none is like it...” Is not a reference to the events in Esther. It is a direct reference to the, “Tribulation Period,” in Revelation chapter 6-18 To claim Jeremiah 30:6 is only a reference to the events in Esther is a private interpretation of scripture.

Concerning the Bride

I believe in looking for the simplest interpretation. I have seen interpretations that refer to Israel as the wife of Jehovah & the Church as the bride of Christ. I hope you are not following that line. I believe that ALL God's redeemed people are in that husband-betrothed relationship. Under the Old Covenant, Israel as a nation is pictured frequently as an adulterous wife, whoring after other gods. The faithful were always in a personal relationship with the LORD, living by faith. 

 

God told Jeremiah to proclaim these words to the backslidden Jews, “Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.” Jeremiah 3:14 Can that be any clearer? The wife of God is the literal, chosen, sons of Abraham, the Jewish nation of Israel.

 

Did not our Lord Jesus say, “Wherefore, they [a married couple] are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Matthew 19:6 the words of the Lord Jesus is true in both the physical and spiritual realm. When God says that He is married to Israel than we should accept it. We may not fully understand it, realize its implications, but we should believe and accept it. Furthermore, in the spiritual realm, I am glad that nothing can, '...put asunder...' my relationship with my bridegroom.  

 

In the Old Testament, along with the Jews, if a person trusted in God then he also was ‘joined’ to the LORD. “Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, the LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.” Isaiah 56:3

 

In the New Testament, as I previously brought out, concerning the bride of Christ (the husband-betrothed relationship), the Bride of Christ is clearly the church (the redeemed). Again, to quote the teaching of the Lord Jesus, the Bridegroom of the church, “...What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Matthew 19:6 When a person is saved, he is 'joined' to the Lord.

 

Under the New Covenant, the relationship again is always personal, & that covenant takes in all believers, including the OC believers. They were not saved apart from Christ. All believers - all the redeemed look forward to the glorious consummation of our relationship with our Saviour God. I don't think there is any separation of church & believing Israel under the NC. We are "my people" as expressed in Rev. 21:1-3 The husband-wife analogy in Ephesians applies through Scripture. As does the following injunction to make ourselves ready - by faith & obedience. Mat. 24:42-47 & Mat. 25:1-13 

 

Covenanter, maybe you need to change your thinking in the matter of the promises of God to the chosen sons of Israel and the prophetic promises given to Israel. The context of Revelation 21:1-3 is in eternity, and is taken out of context to our current subject matter.

 

A possible reason for interpretation disagreements is that words, including Scripture, are necessarily sequential, even if the events being described are concurrent.  

 

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I liked your post because of a good reply, not because of agreement. 

 

[ @BroMatt  - I can't cancel Italic & Bold in this reply - until after the quotes - and it would be helpful in a post like this if the formatting options stayed in view - including the missing ones after right justify. ]

 

 

As I stated in the, “Four Points of Interpretation,” believers disagree due to numerous reasons; denominational bias, etc... The problem lies with individual; it is not the problem with the scripture. “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture if of any private interpretation.” 2 Peter 1:20. Private interpretation is common among many different churches and brethren for many reasons. To me, and to most of the Independent Baptists that I associate with, we find the Book of Revelation gives us a clear understanding of Old Testament promises and can confidently say, "thus saith the Lord."

 

I too reject private interpretation. One reason for the difference in our understanding is the Altantic Ocean, & the influence of Scofield on the American Bible colleges. As a result dispensationalism has become orthodoxy, rather than Covenant theology. 

 

God told Jeremiah to proclaim these words to the backslidden Jews, “Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.” Jeremiah 3:14 Can that be any clearer? The wife of God is the literal, chosen, sons of Abraham, the Jewish nation of Israel.

 Does that mean the entire nation, faithful & unfaithful children of Israel have the married-to-God status? Or does it mean only the faithful few - one or two? 

Did not our Lord Jesus say, “Wherefore, they [a married couple] are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Matthew 19:6 the words of the Lord Jesus is true in both the physical and spiritual realm. When God says that He is married to Israel than we should accept it. We may not fully understand it, realize its implications, but we should believe and accept it. Furthermore, in the spiritual realm, I am glad that nothing can, '...put asunder...' my relationship with my bridegroom.  

 Jesus & John had words to say against those who trusted in being children of Abraham. Mat. 3:7-10  John 8:39-44  The physical realm concerns human marriage, & the spiritual realm both godly marriage & our relationship with our heavenly bridegroom. 

But, are you saying that Israelites, who live & die in unbelief & rejection of their Messiah are yet married to the LORD & will be with him in glory? Peter (quoting Moses) disagrees. Acts 3:22-26 

In the Old Testament, along with the Jews, if a person trusted in God then he also was ‘joined’ to the LORD. “Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, the LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.” Isaiah 56:3

 Agreed

In the New Testament, as I previously brought out, concerning the bride of Christ (the husband-betrothed relationship), the Bride of Christ is clearly the church (the redeemed). Again, to quote the teaching of the Lord Jesus, the Bridegroom of the church, “...What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Matthew 19:6 When a person is saved, he is 'joined' to the Lord.

Agreed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't like being critical - your theme is tremendous & wonderful! Do we realise our status in God's sight as his so loved ones? 

 

It's too easy to think in general terms about God's love for the world. Paul makes a wonderful statement in the middle of an argument about doctrine:

Gal. 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

May we pray this prayer for each other:

 

Eph. 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

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1Timothy115,

As you suggested, I considered your application of Ephesians 4:29 to my comments. And, in response, I fail to understand you application of Ephesians 4:29 with the quote that you took off of my study.

I did mention that every new Bible starting from the Revised Version of 1881 is a corrupt version: and they are. Paul the Apostle, in a direct reference to the corruption of the scriptures in his day and age plainly wrote, "For we not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." 2 Corinthians 2:17 And translator who takes away or adds to the written word of God is corrupting the scriptures. so I was correct in my reference to the new version of the scriptures as being corrupt.

In reference to the Roman Catholic Church I did mention the '...corrupting doctrines and practices...' Among many errors, the Roman Catholic Church promotes worship of images; which is expressly forbidden by God throughout the Old Testament. In Exodus 4:15 and 16 God says, "Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female." God Himself said that the worshipping of images (such as is prevalent in the Roman Catholic Church), is 'corruption.' So  was correct in my reference to the idolatrous worship in the Roman Catholic Church as corrupt.

Furthermore, you need to get a good concordance and study the word 'corrupt,' 'corrupted,' corrupters,' 'corrupted,' corrupeth,' corrupting,' 'corruption,' and corruptly,' in the scriptures. You will discover that when I wrote the above comments it was proper in speech and in scriptural context. 

I would also like to suggest that you read and study thoroughly, "The Two Babylons," by Alexander Hislop. In, "The Two Babylons," by  Hislop thoroughly, and scholarly, documents the pagan ceremonies and some of the corrupted doctrines within the Roman Catholic Church that we do not have time and space to mention in this thread.

You mentioned, "Do you ever witness using your own words?" The implication that I got from that question, and your reference to Ephesians 4:29, is that I use corrupt speech in my witnessing.  I do not feel that to respond to that question is appropriate to this thread. I will though, when I revise the above lesson on Revelation, clarify my reasoning for using the word, 'corrupt.'

Thank you for your comments.

 

 

​I think you went beyond the face value of the scripture, comment, and the question. No personal attack intended directly or by implication, it was a hurried question on my way to evening service. The thought occurred while reading your original post, What 'version' comes out of my mouth each and every time I witness. I don't speak the KJV while witnessing door to door, the corner store, or elsewhere. So, more likely than not I give a "new version" of the Gospel every time I witness. If someone asked me to show them in the Bible what God's word teaches, then I pull out my trusty 1769 KJV and show them. I suppose each of us needs to read Romans 12:3-10, before we reply to each other.

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Yep. It probably would be best if we did as Paul wrote and, '...think soberly..' more often. Hope that the evening service went well. I am very glad to hear your comments. Evidently I took your words out of context which led to a question mark on my thoughts and how to respond.

When a person is out soul winning a lot of our witnessing is our 'own words' to a large extent as we give our testimony and what the Lord has done for us.  Which is good. Sometimes our own personal experience helps a person understand what the scripture says.

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Covenanter,

I will briefly respond to your post than move on to the next study in Revelation chapter 19-22 which would be Revelation 19: 11-16.

1. As the historical timeline of the individuals who taught Covenant, or Dispensational Theology, does not have a direct bearing on this thread I will forbear commenting on influence of Scofield and/or other teachers on the different interpretations of prophecy.

2. As far as the betrothed relationship between God and Israel and the number of faithful believers and unbelievers, I will not at this time comment. Possibly, another thread is needed for that discussion.

3. You wrote, "But, are you saying that Israelites, who live & die in unbelief & rejection of their Messiah are yet married to the LORD & will be with him in glory?

   My comment:  I have not said that not do I believe that. Eternal salvation, the redemption of the soul, has been by placing a personal faith in the mercy of God by an individual, no matter what     country, heritage, and in every dispensation.   

4. Thank you being in agreement with the points that you mentioned you were in agreement with.

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity!' Psalm 133:1

Brethren, as the coming of the Lord Jesus as depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 is full of of Old Testament prophecies, that need to be quoted and not referenced too, and some needed comments on the context of the Tribulation Period, I decided to break in two lessons to make sure we do not miss important details thorugh hastiness.

In the coming days I will continue by teaching on Revelation 19:11-16 Looking forward to a great discussion!

 

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Introduction to Revelation 19:11-22. The Lord Jesus is coming back to this earth to rule and reign. This return was foretold by the Lord Jesus, and depicted, in Revelation 1:7, “Behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Revelation 19:11-16, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verse 11, And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Verse 12, His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Verse 13, And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Verse 14, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Verse 15, And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Verse 16, And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Context of His Coming as “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Revelation chapter 1-3, “The Secret Coming or The Rapture.”

The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus as, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,” is not the secret coming of the Lord for the church, commonly, and hereafter called, “the Rapture.”

At the Rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Jesus will came secretly (as a thief), without any armies. And He came only to the clouds, and will came to take the church, His bride, into heaven in order for the church to escape the Tribulation Period. The, Great Tribulation Period is a time of, “WRATH.” The wrath of God is poured out upon the face of the earth. And, in connection with the coming of the Lord Jesus to take away the church we have a precious promise that the church will not go through the time of the wrath of God upon this earth. 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The direct context, 1 Thessalonians 4:11 through chapter 5 verse 11, is the coming of the Lord Jesus. The context is not the salvation of the soul but salvation from ‘wrath.’

There are two types of tribulation in the scriptures. One type of tribulation is the persecution by the world by all saints, in every age, in every country, for following the Lord. The second type tribulation is the ‘tribulation’ of the Jews, by the entire world, in Revelation chapter 6-18.

In Revelation 2:9 and 10, for example, we see the first type of tribulation; persecution.

In Revelation 3:10, in a great promise given not only to the church at Philadelphia, but to all of the churches, the Lord Jesus personally said He would keep them from the, ‘…hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. The ‘hour of temptation’ is the Tribulation Period.

The Church Age ended in Revelation 3:22 and the ‘Rapture,’ occurred in Revelation 4:1

Revelation chapter 4 & 5, “The Throne & the Lamb.”

Revelation chapter 6-18, “The Tribulation Period or Time of Jacob’s Trouble.”

Jeremiah chapter 31. Jeremiah 31:7 and 24 specifically states that this prophesy is for the end times. “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The fierce anger of the LORD shall return, until he he hath done it, and until he hath performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.”

During this time the prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:14, 15, 21 and 22 will be fulfilled. The ‘elect’ that the Lord Jesus refers to in Matthew 24: 22 and 24 is clearly a direct reference to the nation of Israel.

Special Note:

Revelation 6:12-17, “Sixth Seal,” and 14:14-20, “Sharp Sickle.”

Describes the Events of Revelation 19:11-22

Revelation 19:11-16, “The Battle of Armageddon.”

 “…in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

The Lord Jesus comes back to the earth to take possession as a conquering King. He takes possession of the earth by war. Joel 3:9-17 is a prophecy of this Great War. This is when the earth and the heavens will ‘shake’ as prophesied by Joel and Haggai.

Joel 3:16, “The LORD shall also roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

Haggai 2:6, “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.” See Haggai 20-23 and Hebrews 12:6. The events, people involved, nations involved, and time elements concerning the Battle of Armageddon that Haggai prophesied are all literal and not allegorical.

“…and on his head were many crowns; …

During His ministry the Lord Jesus was crowned with a, ‘crown of thorns.’ In Hebrews 2:7 and 9 the Lord Jesus was crowned with, ‘glory and honor,’ and in heaven He will be crowned, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS’

“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.”

Isaiah 34:1-8 is a vivid description of this event. Isaiah 34: 4 & 6, “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all the host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. … The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.”

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen…”

This is a direct reference to the Church Age saints, the Bride, as discussed in Revelation 19:7-9. It is also the fulfillment of the promise given to the church at Thyatira, and to all of the churches, in Revelation 2:27. Please study Jude 14 & 15

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Lord Jesus returns to the clouds, not to the earth, ‘for’ His saints. In Revelation 19:11-22 the Lord Jesus comes to the earth, not just the clouds, ‘with’ his saints. It is very obvious that the two comings are separate events and no amount of convoluted ‘private,’ interpretation can reconcile the two events into one event.

To be a soldier in this army (2 Timothy 2:3), you need to take up your cross and follow Jesus. ‘No Cross – No Crown’, 2 Timothy 2:12 For those saints who are not willing fight the fight of faith, to be a good soldier for Jesus, and are ‘faint hearted,’ you may be excused from the Lord’s army. “And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart.” Deuteronomy 20:8

“…and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: …”

Psalm 2:8 & 9 will be fulfilled at this juncture, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Paul also prophesied of this time in Hebrews 10:13, “From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.” In Hebrews 10: 16 this prophecy is part of the, ‘covenant’ with God. God will keep His covenant’s; including the giving of the earth to the Lord Jesus as, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,’ over the whole earth.

“…and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

This is a fulfillment of Isaiah11:4b and verse 5 and 63:1-6 “…and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7. Due to the unbelief, hatred, sin, ungodliness, idolatry, wickedness of the nations of the earth, and the Rejection of His Son, the Wrath and Fierceness of God is being poured out upon all of the nations of the earth by the Lord Jesus Christ. For an explanation God’s thinking on the sinful way of man please go back to Jude 14 & 15. This is also a fulfillment, among other prophesies, of Micah 4:11-13, Joel 3:9-16, Zechariah 14:1-4 and Psalm 149:6-9.

“…KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Glory Hallelujah! The Lord Jesus is coming back to the earth as King! This is in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 14:9, “And the LORD shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

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Interesting - a 1 post interpretation of Revelation. How could I possibly disagree with a carefully reasoned post supported by many Scriptures? 

 

I have given the basis of my disagreement by PM. 

 

I won't argue the interpretation of Revelation in this thread. I will simply post from the viewpoint that Revelation was written before AD 70, & primarily concerns AD 70, with application throughout history until Jesus returns.

 

I want to learn from brother Alan & share with him - as he shares with me in the Hebrews study. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Covenanter, Thank you. I am trying to only find the apprpriate scriptural references to let the scriptures interpret themselves. 

Dave, for some reason your post does not show any words at all. If you did post a comment, or point of discussion, please re-post. 

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Brethren,

I am always open for honest and sincere comments, for or against, or discussions, on Revelation chapter 19-22. If there are questions on a particular verse mentioned, but due to space constraints, I did not write out or comment on, please let me know and we can dwell more closely to the verses in question. 

I do though tend to ignore arguments or name calling. And, I will leave a little time between lessons as all of our time on OnLine Baptist is varied.  It is my earnest hope that more of the brethren get involved with the study as prophecy is an integral part of our beliefs. If the lessons are a blessing let me know; if not, let me know what you would like to discuss.

In Christ,

Alan

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I'm reading the thread and considering what's being put forth. I appreciate the civil, Christian approach to this discussion. If I have anything to add or questions to ask in the future I will post them. At the moment, I'm finding the exchange engaging and insightful and I have no comment or question at this time.

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To shorten the reply, I am deleting the Scripture quotations, just leaving the refs.

Introduction to Revelation 19:11-22. The Lord Jesus is coming back to this earth to rule and reign. This return was foretold by the Lord Jesus, and depicted, in Revelation 1:7, “Behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Revelation 19:11-16, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Context of His Coming as “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Revelation chapter 1-3, “The Secret Coming or The Rapture.”

The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus as, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,” is not the secret coming of the Lord for the church, commonly, and hereafter called, “the Rapture.”

You state that as if the so-called "rapture" was clearly taught in Scripture. The coming prophesied in 1 The. 4:13-18 is anything but secret. 1 The. 4:16. 

At the Rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Jesus will came secretly (as a thief), without any armies. And He came only to the clouds, and will came to take the church, His bride, into heaven in order for the church to escape the Tribulation Period. The, Great Tribulation Period is a time of, “WRATH.” The wrath of God is poured out upon the face of the earth. And, in connection with the coming of the Lord Jesus to take away the church we have a precious promise that the church will not go through the time of the wrath of God upon this earth. 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The direct context, 1 Thessalonians 4:11 through chapter 5 verse 11, is the coming of the Lord Jesus. The context is not the salvation of the soul but salvation from ‘wrath.’

You are reading an interpretation into the plain words of Scripture. Our deliverance when our Lord comes is contrasted with sudden destruction. 1 The. 5:3  And surely "... salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us..." IS salvation of the soul (& body.) Full salvation!

There are two types of tribulation in the scriptures. One type of tribulation is the persecution by the world by all saints, in every age, in every country, for following the Lord. The second type tribulation is the ‘tribulation’ of the Jews, by the entire world, in Revelation chapter 6-18.

In Revelation 2:9 and 10, for example, we see the first type of tribulation; persecution.

In Revelation 3:10, in a great promise given not only to the church at Philadelphia, but to all of the churches, the Lord Jesus personally said He would keep them from the, ‘…hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. The ‘hour of temptation’ is the Tribulation Period.

The Church Age ended in Revelation 3:22 and the ‘Rapture,’ occurred in Revelation 4:1 

Again interpretation by an imposed hermeneutic; John has been given letters to real living churches, all with application to every reader/hearer as we read them. He then has a series of visions beginning with heaven - God in glorious light, & then Christ triumphant in glory. As the book progresses the dreadful nature of the spiritual warfare is seen. We have a vicious enemy manifested in wicked earthly powers, including the Papacy, Islam, atheist Communism, etc.       

Revelation chapter 4 & 5, “The Throne & the Lamb.”

Revelation chapter 6-18, “The Tribulation Period or Time of Jacob’s Trouble.”

Jeremiah chapter 31. Jeremiah 31:7 and 24 specifically states that this prophesy is for the end times. “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The fierce anger of the LORD shall return, until he he hath done it, and until he hath performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.”

When did the end times, or last days or last hour begin? St Pentecost? Acts 2:17   The problem with the concept of a Rev. 1-3 referring to the church & church age, & Rev. 4-18 referring to Israel in a future tribulation, is that the ONLY mention of Israel is in Rev. 7:4 - the sealing of 144,000. A further reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (& the temple) is in Rev. 11, & a reference to "the woman" giving birth to Christ.    

During this time the prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:14, 15, 21 and 22 will be fulfilled. The ‘elect’ that the Lord Jesus refers to in Matthew 24: 22 and 24 is clearly a direct reference to the nation of Israel.

The parallel passage in Luke 21:20-24 makes it clear that Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, the subject of the prophecy. AD 70.

Special Note:

Revelation 6:12-17, “Sixth Seal,” and 14:14-20, “Sharp Sickle.”

Describes the Events of Revelation 19:11-22

Revelation 19:11-16, “The Battle of Armageddon.”

 “…in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

The Lord Jesus comes back to the earth to take possession as a conquering King. He takes possession of the earth by war. Joel 3:9-17 is a prophecy of this Great War. This is when the earth and the heavens will ‘shake’ as prophesied by Joel and Haggai.

Joel 3:16, “The LORD shall also roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

Haggai 2:6, “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.” See Haggai 20-23 and Hebrews 12:6. The events, people involved, nations involved, and time elements concerning the Battle of Armageddon that Haggai prophesied are all literal and not allegorical.

“…and on his head were many crowns; …

During His ministry the Lord Jesus was crowned with a, ‘crown of thorns.’ In Hebrews 2:7 and 9 the Lord Jesus was crowned with, ‘glory and honor,’ and in heaven He will be crowned, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS’

“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.”

Isaiah 34:1-8 is a vivid description of this event. Isaiah 34: 4 & 6, “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all the host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. … The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.”

I find it extraordinary that the Lord Jesus - God the Son, the Prince of Peace - should be personally involved in a bloody war. Note Rev. 19:15 & Rev. 1:16 - the sword is from his mouth & surely refers to his Word. That requires a figurative, not literal reading.

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen…”

This is a direct reference to the Church Age saints, the Bride, as discussed in Revelation 19:7-9. It is also the fulfillment of the promise given to the church at Thyatira, and to all of the churches, in Revelation 2:27. Please study Jude 14 & 15

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Lord Jesus returns to the clouds, not to the earth, ‘for’ His saints. In Revelation 19:11-22 the Lord Jesus comes to the earth, not just the clouds, ‘with’ his saints. It is very obvious that the two comings are separate events and no amount of convoluted ‘private,’ interpretation can reconcile the two events into one event.

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

To be a soldier in this army (2 Timothy 2:3), you need to take up your cross and follow Jesus. ‘No Cross – No Crown’, 2 Timothy 2:12 For those saints who are not willing fight the fight of faith, to be a good soldier for Jesus, and are ‘faint hearted,’ you may be excused from the Lord’s army. “And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart.” Deuteronomy 20:8 

Christian warfare is against spiritual wickedness, not against flesh & blood. Eph. 6  I don't think we should anticipate getting involved in a physical battle, & actually there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20 The wicked gather for war & perish. The saints are praising God in their 4 hallelujahs, gathering for the marriage supper, & they see their Lord completing his victory by the sword of his mouth, & the wicked are utterly condemned. God brought creation into existence by his Word, & now completes his victory over evil by his word.   

“…and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: …”

Psalm 2:8 & 9 will be fulfilled at this juncture, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

A rod of iron destroys utterly.

Paul also prophesied of this time in Hebrews 10:13, “From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.” In Hebrews 10: 16 this prophecy is part of the, ‘covenant’ with God. God will keep His covenant’s; including the giving of the earth to the Lord Jesus as, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,’ over the whole earth.

“…and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

This is a fulfillment of Isaiah11:4b and verse 5 and 63:1-6 “…and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7. Due to the unbelief, hatred, sin, ungodliness, idolatry, wickedness of the nations of the earth, and the Rejection of His Son, the Wrath and Fierceness of God is being poured out upon all of the nations of the earth by the Lord Jesus Christ. For an explanation God’s thinking on the sinful way of man please go back to Jude 14 & 15. This is also a fulfillment, among other prophesies, of Micah 4:11-13, Joel 3:9-16, Zechariah 14:1-4 and Psalm 149:6-9.

“…KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Glory Hallelujah! The Lord Jesus is coming back to the earth as King! This is in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 14:9, “And the LORD shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

Now I agree with your conclusion. We disagree in details & interpretation, but agree in our Lord's final & complete victory, & our blessed part in that victory as we stand & fight in spiritual armour. 

 

 

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Revelation 19:11-16 Reply to Covenanter March 12, 2015 Questions

Covenanter said:

You state that as if the so-called "rapture" was clearly taught in Scripture. The coming prophesied in 1 The. 4:13-18 is anything but secret. 1 The. 4:16

 

Alan Reply:

All of the world will see the coming of the Lord Jesus as plainly stated in Revelation 1:7 and Revelation 19:11-21 Also, the Lord Jesus said, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man.” Matthew 25:27. This coming is fulfilled in Revelation 19:11-21 When the Lord Jesus comes as pictured in Revelation 19:11-21 All of the earth shall see him.

When the Lord Jesus comes for the church in the, “Rapture,” He is coming, only to the clouds, as a thief, and only the saints that are raised will see Him. The lost peoples of the world will not see the Lord Jesus when he comes for His church. Therefore, He is coming in ‘Secret.” The exact scriptural terminology is that He coming as a, ‘Thief.’

A thief comes secretly, mostly at night, to take away the jewels, or money, or valuables, from a home, and departs as secretly as possible. That is why it is called a ‘secret,’ coming. In the direct context of the coming for the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul then states in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” OBVIOUSLY, IT CANNOT BE THE COMING THAT THE LORD JESUS MADE REFERENCE TO IN MATTHEW 25:27.

Contrary to your belief that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “...is anything but secret...’ is in error. The Lord Jesus is coming for His church as a thief and He will not reveal Himself to the world at that time.

In the eyes of God, the Lord Jesus, the church of the redeemed, are valuable: ‘treasure in a field,’ Matthew 13:44; the field is, ‘the world,’ Matthew 13:38; ‘a pearl of great price,’ Matthew 13:46. Hence, He comes as a thief, to the world, to take home his treasure.

Covenanter said:

You are reading an interpretation into the plain words of Scripture. Our deliverance when our Lord comes is contrasted with sudden destruction. 1 The. 5:3  And surely "... salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us..." IS salvation of the soul (& body.) Full salvation!

Alan Reply:

I think you need to read my first explanation more closely. You are reading into my explanation something that is not there. The scriptures speak for themselves. You are mistaken. The interpretation is based upon a literal belief in the scriptures and not an, ‘figurative,’ or ‘allegorical,’ or, ‘private,’ interpretation of scripture.

There are two types of tribulation in the scriptures. One type of tribulation is the persecution by the world by all saints, in every age, in every country, for following the Lord. The second type tribulation is the ‘tribulation’ of the Jews, by the entire world, in Revelation chapter 6-18.

In Revelation 2:9 and 10, for example, we see the first type of tribulation; persecution.

In Revelation 3:10, in a great promise given not only to the church at Philadelphia, but to all of the churches, the Lord Jesus personally said He would keep them from the, ‘…hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. The ‘hour of temptation’ is the Tribulation Period.

The Church Age ended in Revelation 3:22 and the ‘Rapture,’ occurred in Revelation 4:1 

Covenanter said:

Again interpretation by an imposed hermeneutic; John has been given letters to real living churches, all with application to every reader/hearer as we read them. He then has a series of visions beginning with heaven - God in glorious light, & then Christ triumphant in glory. As the book progresses the dreadful nature of the spiritual warfare is seen. We have a vicious enemy manifested in wicked earthly powers, including the Papacy, Islam, atheist Communism, etc.

Alan reply:

You are interpreting actual events, with actual persons, in actual places, in fulfilment of literal prophecies that are being fulfilled with allegorical, figurative or self-made ‘spiritual,’ interpretations that can mean anything to anybody. What you say is, ‘spiritual warfare,’ is literal events on the earth in fulfillment of literal prophecies.

Your definition of, ‘spiritual,’ is just your spiritualizing scripture and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit at all. Therefore, your interpretation is a private interpretation.

Revelation chapter 6-18, “The Tribulation Period or Time of Jacob’s Trouble.”

Jeremiah chapter 31. Jeremiah 31:7 and 24 specifically states that this prophesy is for the end times. “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The fierce anger of the LORD shall return, until he hath done it, and until he hath performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.”

Covenanter said:

When did the end times, or last days or last hour begin? St Pentecost? Acts 2:17   The problem with the concept of a Rev. 1-3 referring to the church & church age, & Rev. 4-18 referring to Israel in a future tribulation, is that the ONLY mention of Israel is in Rev. 7:4 - the sealing of 144,000. A further reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (& the temple) is in Rev. 11, & a reference to "the woman" giving birth to Christ.  

Alan reply:

I did not get in a discussion of ‘when the end times,’ begin. That subject is for a future post at the appropriate time. The Tribulation period is the time of Jacob’s Trouble as Jeremiah prophesied. Also, Covenanter, you are in error, the Lord Jesus, in a plain reference to the nation of Israel in Matthew 24:22 says, “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”

Covenanter you are also in error concerning that Revelation 7:4 is the only reference to the nation of Israel in the Tribulation period.

  1. Revelation 11:1-13, Besides the Temple we have the Two Witnesses. This is in fulfilment of Zechariah 4:1-14. These two witnesses are Jewish prophets, (most likely Moses and Elijah) and Revelation 11:8 is a direct reference to backslidden Jerusalem.

  2. Revelation 12:1-17 is a clear and unmistakable reference to the nation of Israel. Revelation 12:5 deals with this post so I will quote it, “And she [the nation of Israel] brought forth a man child [the Lord Jesus], who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” ‘...who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:...’ is a direct reference to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:15. In Revelation God gives special protection to the woman, Israel, 12:14-17, due to the persecution of the dragon.

During this time the prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:14, 15, 21 and 22 will be fulfilled. The ‘elect’ that the Lord Jesus refers to in Matthew 24: 22 and 24 is clearly a direct reference to the nation of Israel.

Covenanter said:,

The parallel passage in Luke 21:20-24 makes it clear that Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, the subject of the prophecy. AD 70.

Alan replied:

Covenanter, you are in error. Luke 21:20-24 is not a companion passage of Matthew 24:22 and 24. The elect in Matthew 24:22 is the elect nation of Israel during the Tribulation Period. Luke 21:20-24 is a direct reference to the destruction of the nation of Israel, and the Temple, in A.D. 70

 

Revelation 19:11-16, “The Battle of Armageddon.”

 “…in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

The Lord Jesus comes back to the earth to take possession as a conquering King. He takes possession of the earth by war. Joel 3:9-17 is a prophecy of this Great War. This is when the earth and the heavens will ‘shake’ as prophesied by Joel and Haggai.

Joel 3:16, “The LORD shall also roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

Haggai 2:6, “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.” See Haggai 20-23 and Hebrews 12:6. The events, people involved, nations involved, and time elements concerning the Battle of Armageddon that Haggai prophesied are all literal and not allegorical.

“…and on his head were many crowns; …

During His ministry the Lord Jesus was crowned with a, ‘crown of thorns.’ In Hebrews 2:7 and 9 the Lord Jesus was crowned with, ‘glory and honor,’ and in heaven He will be crowned, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS’

“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.”

Isaiah 34:1-8 is a vivid description of this event. Isaiah 34: 4 & 6, “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all the host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. … The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.”

Covenanter said.

I find it extraordinary that the Lord Jesus - God the Son, the Prince of Peace - should be personally involved in a bloody war. Note Rev. 19:15 & Rev. 1:16 - the sword is from his mouth & surely refers to his Word. That requires a figurative, not literal reading.

Alan replied.

The interpretation that the Lord Jesus Christ will not be involved in a personal bloody war is a disregard for the prophetic prophecy of Isaiah 34 and Revelation 19, as previously quoted. Your belief that it is a figurative and not a literal reading is a disbelief in the written scriptures.

It is painfully obvious that there are numerous denominations and teachers within the false churches and true church throughout the ages that also do not believe in the literal events as clearly spoken by the prophets and their fulfillment in the book of Revelation. Included, but not a total list, are the following: The Roman Catholic started the method of a ‘figurative’ interpretation of Matthew chapter 24 and 25 and the Book of Revelation, this includes: ‘Preterits,’ A-millennials, or Post-Millennial, of any denomination, and any form of, ‘Replacement Theology.’

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen…”

This is a direct reference to the Church Age saints, the Bride, as discussed in Revelation 19:7-9. It is also the fulfillment of the promise given to the church at Thyatira, and to all of the churches, in Revelation 2:27. Please study Jude 14 & 15

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Lord Jesus returns to the clouds, not to the earth, ‘for’ His saints. In Revelation 19:11-22 the Lord Jesus comes to the earth, not just the clouds, ‘with’ his saints. It is very obvious that the two comings are separate events and no amount of convoluted ‘private,’ interpretation can reconcile the two events into one event.

Covenanter said:

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

Alan replied.

Paul never wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the Lord Coming, ‘... with his saints...’

And, the, "sudden destruction" for the ungodly,’ in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a direct reference to the fact that after the rapture the Tribulation Period starts.

Furthermore, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is a direct reference to the coming of the Lord Jesus as a conquering King in Revelation 19:11-22 It is not a reference, nor even in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 This improper ‘dividing’ of scripture is in serious error.

To be a soldier in this army (2 Timothy 2:3), you need to take up your cross and follow Jesus. ‘No Cross – No Crown’, 2 Timothy 2:12 For those saints who are not willing fight the fight of faith, to be a good soldier for Jesus, and are ‘faint hearted,’ you may be excused from the Lord’s army. “And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart.” Deuteronomy 20:8 

Covenanter said:

Christian warfare is against spiritual wickedness, not against flesh & blood. Eph. 6  I don't think we should anticipate getting involved in a physical battle, & actually there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20 The wicked gather for war & perish. The saints are praising God in their 4 hallelujahs, gathering for the marriage supper, & they see their Lord completing his victory by the sword of his mouth, & the wicked are utterly condemned. God brought creation into existence by his Word, & now completes his victory over evil by his word.   

Alan replied:

Covenanter stated, ‘...there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20...’ That statement is a dis-belief of the literal battle of Revelation chapter 19 and 20 in fulfillment Isaiah 34:1-8 and Psalm 2:8 & 9

“…and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: …”

Psalm 2:8 & 9 will be fulfilled at this juncture, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Covenanter said:

A rod of iron destroys utterly.

Alan reply:

Yes it does. That is the correct, and very plain and clear, interpretation of what God Almighty said about His Son the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus will destroy, literally, the current world systems of government and replace every one with his own. Isaiah, and other prophets, prophesied the destruction of the world systems as will be fulfilled by the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:11-22.

Covenanter said:

Now I agree with your conclusion. We disagree in details & interpretation, but agree in our Lord's final & complete victory, & our blessed part in that victory as we stand & fight in spiritual armour. 

 Alan,

Thank you. We do both agree on the final victory of the Lord Jesus in all areas. I will upload the next lesson, Revelation 19:17-21 in a few days.

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Alan - I am offended by your disparaging tone & personal attack. I hoped that we could study the Scripture from different viewpoints in a courteous & constructive manner. I was mistaken.

I'll just comment on one section of the exchange.

Covenanter said:

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

Alan replied.

Paul never wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the Lord Coming, ‘... with his saints...’ Now, in the new corrupt versions of the scriptures of the scriptures, that may be true: but, I double-checked my trusty, reliable, preserved, Authorized Version commonly known as the King James Version of 1611, and I failed to see where the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 said, ‘...with his saints.' Are you using a NIV? Are you using a Jehovah’s Witnesses New World Version? Is that the quote from The Living Bible? I did not check the New KJV (NKJV). Maybe it’s in the NKJV? Are you using the latest new-fangled version in print? The last time checked, not counting the New Greek translations, there were 276 new versions of the Bible since 1881.

And, the, "sudden destruction" for the ungodly,’ in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a direct reference to the fact that after the rapture the Tribulation Period starts.

Furthermore, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is a direct reference to the coming of the Lord Jesus as a conquering King in Revelation 19:11-22 It is not a reference, nor even in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 This improper ‘dividing’ of scripture is in serious error.

"With his saints" ... what does the KJV say?

1 The. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 The. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You speak of FACT when you reject the obvious reference to 1 The. 5:3 to 2 The. 1:7-10 . 

No the FACT is that you are imposing a false interpretation system on the clear words of Scripture, and even denying the clear words of Scripture to impose your system.

Claiming that sudden destruction is simply the start of a 7 year tribulation period, & is not related to  everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  is simply nonsense. Paul's writing is inspired; your's & mine are not. What we write must be a fair comment on what Paul wrote, not based on someone else's private interpretation. Please start reading & believing the Bible for yourself, rather than making disparaging remarks that show your ignorance & lack of understanding of the KVJ. 

  

 

 

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  Rev 1:1 ¶  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 

Rev was signified, meaning it was given  in signs or figures.  We would say symbols.  Allegory is something different.  

When a sign is explained, it helps us to understand the rest, as scripture does not contradict itself.    Note; Rev was given to the church not to the Jews.  It was written to the church and concerns the church throughout.

 

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John 81,

The tread has not deteriorated on my account. I have been civil and understanding on our differences.

 

Since the last few days, I have been called a traitor by Pilgrim and Covenanter agreed. Covenanter called my country, the United States of America, a Fascist Country, and you pretty well agreed. Covenanter wrote he did not like my 'tone,' and you call me uncivil! Ah, come on now! You got to be kidding me!  Are both of you serious! If you are, both of you are being hypocritical.

 

Then, Covenanter said this: "I too reject private interpretation. One reason for the difference in our understanding is the Altantic Ocean, & the influence of Scofield on the American Bible colleges. As a result dispensationalism has become orthodoxy, rather than Covenant theology. "

 

Covenanter directly implied that my teaching was, '...private interpretation..' throughout this study he says that the teaching of the literal events of Revelations is a 'private teaching.' And, even though I have not quoted Scofield one time in this study he says that the influence of Scofield has resulted in the 'American Bible colleges," being 'unorthodox' and his teaching 'orthodox.' 

 

Covenanter  has never had the Christian courtesy to ask if I have been to Bible College, and if I have, where I have been to Bible College and If I follow Scofield's teaching. I have not even quoted from Scofield! Probably after this post he will probably. Then, he, or somebody else that does agree with me, will probably find something bad about the College (if I did go to Bible College in America).

 

You, Covenanter and Pilgrim blame me for non-existent problems: such as lack of civility, and other un-Christian attributes in an effort to downgrade my teaching. The slander that I have first received by you brethren is not only uncalled for, extremely un-Christian, and I think, done deliberately to berate me for my biblical teaching and patriotic beliefs.

 

The teaching of the fulfillment of the prophetic events are fulfilled literally in the book of Revelation. To believe in, 'Preterist,' or  'Replacement Theology,' or  'Covenant theology,' and other figurative, allegorical, or fantastical beliefs is a dis-belief in the scriptures, the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul the Apostle. Because of my teaching I am being slandered, lied at, and maligned. If you do not agree with me then ask me specific questions and not malign  my character.

 

And you call me uncivil. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 That, my friend is what is happening to me due to my Patriotic stand and the literal interpretation of the Prophets and the Book of Revelation.

Edited by Alan
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John 81,

The tread has not deteriorated on my account. I have been civil and understanding on our differences.

 

Since the last few days, I have been called a traitor by Pilgram and Covenanter agreed. Covenanter called my country, the United States of America, a Facist Country, and you pretty well agreed. Covenante wrote he did not like my 'tone,' and you call me uncivil! Ah, come on now! You got to be kidding me!  Are both of you serious! If you are, both of you are being hypocritical.

 

Then, Coventanter said this: "I too reject private interpretation. One reason for the difference in our understanding is the Altantic Ocean, & the influence of Scofield on the American Bible colleges. As a result dispensationalism has become orthodoxy, rather than Covenant theology. "

 

Covenanter directly implied that my reaching was, '...pirvate interpretation..' thorughout this study he says that the teaching of the literal events of Revelations is a 'private teaching.' And, even though I have not quoted Scofield one time in this study he says that the influence of Scofied has resulted in the 'American Bible colleges," being 'unorthodox' and his teaching 'orthodox.' 

 

Covenanter  has never had the Christian courtesy to ask if I have been to Bible College, and if I have, where I have been to Bible College and If I follow Scofield's teaching. I have not even quoted from Scofield! Porbably after this post he will probably. Then, he, or somebody else that does agree with me, will probably find something bad about the College (if I did go to Bible College in America).

 

You, Covenanter and Pilgram blame me for non-existant problems: such as lack of civility, and other un-Christian attributes in an effort to downgrade my teaching. The slander that I have first received by you brethren is not only uncalled for, extememly un-Christian, and I think, done deliberately to berate me for my biblical teaching and patriotic beliefs.

 

The teaching of the fulfillment of the prophetic events are fulfilled literaly in the book of Revelation. To believe in, 'Preterist,' or  'Replacement Theology,' or  'Covenant theology,' and other figurative, allegrocal, or fantacial beliefs is a dis-belief in the scriptures, the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul the Apostle. Because of my teaching I am being slandered, lied at, and maligned. If you do not agree with me then ask me specific questions and not malign  my character.

 

And you call me uncivil. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 That, my friend is what is happening to me due to my Patriotic stand and the literal interpretation of the Prophets and the Book of Revelation.

​For some reason you are seriously misreading some posts.

Pilgrim pointed out that you seem to have insinuated I was a traitor by your Russian agent comment. Pilgrim never called you a traitor, nor did I or anyone else. Salyan well address that too.

If you believe my post about the tone of the thread applied to you rather than being a general comment, I can't help that because I didn't mention you at all. In fact, I didn't mention anyone.

I don't recall Covenanter saying America is fascist (not saying that might not be in a post in some thread, but if so, I missed it) and I know I never said that nor have I ever accused you of being fascist or anything else.

As to the contents of the discussion here on the actual topic, I've not become involved nor have I sided with anyone or any view in postings in this thread. I did make a post letting those here know I was reading the postings, considering what's being put forth and looking to Scripture on my own time.

Alan, I'm not your enemy, nor an enemy of anyone here. Please stop reading things into postings that aren't there. If I have something to say to someone I try to say it plainly. The last time I plainly said something to you was with regards to you misreading my postings and I simply pointed out your misunderstanding. Your response was to call me a liar and insinuate I'm an enemy agent (which is why Pilgrim questioned you calling me a traitor; he never called you one). Please read our posts carefully and you will see we are not attacking you.

 

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Revelation 19:17-21, “The Fulfillment of Prophecy at the Battle of Armageddon.”

Special Note:

“And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Revelation 16:16

Verse 17, And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

Verse 18, That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,  both small and great.

Verse 19, And I saw the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Verse 20, and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Verse 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

We see the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:1-7, 17-29, Isaiah 34:1-8 and Zechariah 14:1-3 in this battle. Let us take note of a couple of prophesies in this section. Ezekiel 39:17, “And, thou son of man, thy saith the LORD GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.”

Please take careful note. “... upon the mountains of Israel...” the Tribulation period is primarily the time s of Jacob’s Trouble to bring Israel back to the land of Israel. Why did God cause the Tribulation period? Why is the Lord Jesus leading this great army of saints to overcome the heathen (Ezekiel 39:23 & 28)?

“Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;” ... “Then shall they [Israel] know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.” Ezekiel 39: 25 & 28

The events of the Tribulation Period, Revelation chapter 6 through 18, is primarily to fulfill the promises given to the nation of Israel. To bring the chosen sons of Jacob, the elect of the children of Israel, restored back to the land of Israel.

The prophecy of Amos 3:9-17 is also fulfilled at this time. The events of Revelation chapter 6-18 has nothing to do with the church of the redeemed as the church was taken out of the Tribulation period, secretly, as a thief, in Revelation 4:1. That is why the true church is not mentioned at all.

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nobody can, ‘abide it.” The armies of the Beast are destroyed and the Beast and the False Prophet are taken bodily and cast, ‘alive,’ into the ‘lake of fire.’ Hell, the lake of fire, is literal and eternal. The end result of those taking the mark of the Beast is eternity in hell.

The Beast deceived the whole world through his lies, Revelation 12:9.

The False Prophet deceived the world through his ‘charismatic miracles,’ and religious doctrine: lies. All religious falsehood are lies. The Great Whore, Revelation 17:5, the Roman Catholic Church and all other false religious denominations allied with her, is, as we speak, deceiving the earth through religious lies. False churches use false bibles, to teach false doctrine in order to deceive. False, or miss-guided, brethren teach erroneous doctrine through the improperly dividing of scripture, or twisting the scripture, in order to deceive.

The end result of the False Prophet, False teachers, and people: who are in a false church, and who have a false belief in the Lord Jesus, is eternity in  the lake of fire. Pease study 1 Timothy 1:18-20, 4:1, 2 and 16 Remember Balaam? Korah? Cain? Numbers, Jude 11, and Genesis 3:1-17

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Please re-read Ezekiel chapter 39 as previously mentioned.

This is also the fulfillment of the prophetic words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke in Matthew 24:28, “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” The carcasses’ of the armies of the Beast and the False Prophet are where the eagles are going to gather as spoken by the Lord Jesus.

The companion passage of this prophecy is recorded in Luke 17:37, “And they answered and said unto him, Where, LORD? And he said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The prophecy of the Lord Jesus is fulfilled in, ‘the Feast of the Fowls.”

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Brethren

In order to keep this thread as civil, polite, and a good Christian attitude, I would like have any discussion revolve only around the particular verses involved. In this case, Revelation 19:17-21. It is my intention to create an atmosphere of simply studying the scripures as they speak without getting involved with personalities, side issues, etc... I will try and only answers those questions I feel are appropriate and stay away from 'baited,' and 'argumentive,' or 'side issue,' questions. Due to the complexity of prophecies and number of prophesies involved , I know I cannot bring out all of the apporpriate passages. If there are any passages that I neglect to mention please let all of us know and we will comment on them. Thank you for your spirit of cooperation. May we again renew outselves to a more deep understanding and love for the word of God.

Alan

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Brethren

In order to keep this thread as civil, polite, and a good Christian attitude, I would like have any discussion revolve only around the particular verses involved. In this case, Revelation 19:17-21. It is my intention to create an atmosphere of simply studying the scripures as they speak without getting involved with personalities, side issues, etc... I will try and only answers those questions I feel are appropriate and stay away from 'baited,' and 'argumentive,' or 'side issue,' questions. Due to the complexity of prophecies and number of prophesies involved , I know I cannot bring out all of the apporpriate passages. If there are any passages that I neglect to mention please let all of us know and we will comment on them. Thank you for your spirit of cooperation. May we again renew outselves to a more deep understanding and love for the word of God.

Alan

​Thank you. I've been getting a much better understanding of the basis of some differing views in this area as well as clearer direction in my personal studies in this thread than in previous threads on this topic. Keeping focus and limiting the discussion to aspects concerning the specific verses under observation is beneficial and much appreciated.

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Comments in blue. @BroMatt it would be helpful in a post like this to have the formatting options on display. 

Revelation 19:17-21, “The Fulfillment of Prophecy at the Battle of Armageddon.”

Special Note:

“And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Revelation 16:16

Verse 17, And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

Verse 18, That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,  both small and great.

Verse 19, And I saw the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Verse 20, and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Verse 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

We see the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:1-7, 17-29, Isaiah 34:1-8 and Zechariah 14:1-3 in this battle. Let us take note of a couple of prophesies in this section. Ezekiel 39:17, “And, thou son of man, thy saith the LORD GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.”

The Gog-Magog prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is explicitly restated after the "millennium" indicating that the Satan-led nations will gather against Christ at the end of time before they are utterly destroyed by fire from heaven. The battles employ weapons of the time, to be used as firewood. Eze. 39:9-10 Now, I do not expect the Bible prophets to describe modern warfare & weapons, but we do need to understand what the prophets are describing if the prophecies are applicable to us & our times. I consider it to be symbolic of God's final judgement of the wicked, the beasts, false prophets & those who follow them. I do not anticipate a physical battle of the demonic armies against Christ in person. God the Son fight with the sword of his mouth - his word. A word is all he needs. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat. 25:41    

Please take careful note. “... upon the mountains of Israel...” the Tribulation period is primarily the time s of Jacob’s Trouble to bring Israel back to the land of Israel. Why did God cause the Tribulation period? Why is the Lord Jesus leading this great army of saints to overcome the heathen (Ezekiel 39:23 & 28)?

“Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;” ... “Then shall they [Israel] know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.” Ezekiel 39: 25 & 28

The events of the Tribulation Period, Revelation chapter 6 through 18, is primarily to fulfill the promises given to the nation of Israel. To bring the chosen sons of Jacob, the elect of the children of Israel, restored back to the land of Israel.

The prophecy of Amos 3:9-17 is also fulfilled at this time. The events of Revelation chapter 6-18 has nothing to do with the church of the redeemed as the church was taken out of the Tribulation period, secretly, as a thief, in Revelation 4:1. That is why the true church is not mentioned at all.

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

The prophecy of Joel taken literally, is about a plague of locusts, with the effects of a great swarm of locusts being described - darkening the sun, moon & stars, & devouring everything green. Joel 1 & 2 describe that plague in terms of an invading army. Yet that plague will end with repentance & restoration. Joel 2:12-27    

That was the common experience of the people of Israel throughout their history. Turning away from God, suffering various judgements, repenting & restoration. Joel 2:28-32 is the wonderful promise of Pentecost. The sun was indeed turned to darkness at Calvary a few weeks before.

The plague of locusts is seen again in Rev. 9 when the fifth trumpet sounds. This is a demonic plague.   

Nobody can, ‘abide it.” The armies of the Beast are destroyed and the Beast and the False Prophet are taken bodily and cast, ‘alive,’ into the ‘lake of fire.’ Hell, the lake of fire, is literal and eternal. The end result of those taking the mark of the Beast is eternity in hell.

The Beast deceived the whole world through his lies, Revelation 12:9.

The False Prophet deceived the world through his ‘charismatic miracles,’ and religious doctrine: lies. All religious falsehood are lies. The Great Whore, Revelation 17:5, the Roman Catholic Church and all other false religious denominations allied with her, is, as we speak, deceiving the earth through religious lies. False churches use false bibles, to teach false doctrine in order to deceive. False, or miss-guided, brethren teach erroneous doctrine through the improperly dividing of scripture, or twisting the scripture, in order to deceive.

The end result of the False Prophet, False teachers, and people: who are in a false church, and who have a false belief in the Lord Jesus, is eternity in  the lake of fire. Pease study 1 Timothy 1:18-20, 4:1, 2 and 16 Remember Balaam? Korah? Cain? Numbers, Jude 11, and Genesis 3:1-17 

I'm in general agreement. I believe, however, that the immediate context of Revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem, whose mantle of opposition to Christ & his church was taken up by Rome. What applied at the time of writing applies down the centuries to this day. 

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Please re-read Ezekiel chapter 39 as previously mentioned.  Yes.

This is also the fulfillment of the prophetic words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke in Matthew 24:28, “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” The carcasses’ of the armies of the Beast and the False Prophet are where the eagles are going to gather as spoken by the Lord Jesus.

The companion passage of this prophecy is recorded in Luke 17:37, “And they answered and said unto him, Where, LORD? And he said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The prophecy of the Lord Jesus is fulfilled in, ‘the Feast of the Fowls.”

I have to agree there, as the context of Jesus' warnings & his Olivet prophecy concerns the destruction of Jerusalem, with further warnings for Christian living in readiness for his return, which culminates in resurrection & judgement. [Even if we profoundly disagree!] 

To summarise the chapter as I understand it.

There are many occasions throughout the NT when we learn of the double harvest judgement. John -  Mat. 3:11-12 Jesus Kingdom parables - Mat. 13:37-43 John 5:28-29 Peter - Acts 3:22-26 Paul - 2 The. 1:6-10 Peter - 2 Peter 3:7 2 Peter 3:13 John - Rev. 14:14-19 So we see in Rev. 19 the praises of the redeemed in heaven as the wicked are judged - that glorious 4-fold hallelujah!

The redeemed join their heavenly bridegroom for the marriage feast, while Christ is seen as the Faithful & True on a white horse, leading the heavenly army. He is King of kings & Lord of lords & he has one final act of judgement to accomplish - the destruction of the wicked who fought against him & his followers on earth. It's not a physical battle, but judgement by his Word, the sword of his mouth, & they are cast into hell. That judgement is prophesied in terms of a physical battle, but in reality is far more terrible, & is not prolongued, & the issue is not in doubt.

Where is Israel in all this? Counted in with the redeemed people of God - firstfruits ( Rev. 14:1-5 ), praising their Saviour-God with heart-felt hallelujahs. Jesus & his Apostles do not see a return to the land, but a return to their Saviour God. 

I'm not saying we are in Armageddon now, but as we look around the world we can see the Satan-led armies gathering against the believers in many countries, with the enemy showing many faces -  the absolute hatred of ISIS & atheist communism, resurgent Hinduism, to the benign deceptive ecumenical movement & false Christianity. Watch & pray! Mark 13:31-33      

 

 

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