Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.

[Alan]

Yep. It probably would be best if we did as Paul wrote and, '...think soberly..' more often. Hope that the evening service went well. I am very glad to hear your comments. Evidently I took your words out of context which led to a question mark on my thoughts and how to respond.

When a person is out soul winning a lot of our witnessing is our 'own words' to a large extent as we give our testimony and what the Lord has done for us.  Which is good. Sometimes our own personal experience helps a person understand what the scripture says.

[Alan]

Covenanter,

I will briefly respond to your post than move on to the next study in Revelation chapter 19-22 which would be Revelation 19: 11-16.

1. As the historical timeline of the individuals who taught Covenant, or Dispensational Theology, does not have a direct bearing on this thread I will forbear commenting on influence of Scofield and/or other teachers on the different interpretations of prophecy.

2. As far as the betrothed relationship between God and Israel and the number of faithful believers and unbelievers, I will not at this time comment. Possibly, another thread is needed for that discussion.

3. You wrote, "But, are you saying that Israelites, who live & die in unbelief & rejection of their Messiah are yet married to the LORD & will be with him in glory?

   My comment:  I have not said that not do I believe that. Eternal salvation, the redemption of the soul, has been by placing a personal faith in the mercy of God by an individual, no matter what     country, heritage, and in every dispensation.   

4. Thank you being in agreement with the points that you mentioned you were in agreement with.

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity!' Psalm 133:1

Brethren, as the coming of the Lord Jesus as depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 is full of of Old Testament prophecies, that need to be quoted and not referenced too, and some needed comments on the context of the Tribulation Period, I decided to break in two lessons to make sure we do not miss important details thorugh hastiness.

In the coming days I will continue by teaching on Revelation 19:11-16 Looking forward to a great discussion!

 

[Alan]

Introduction to Revelation 19:11-22. The Lord Jesus is coming back to this earth to rule and reign. This return was foretold by the Lord Jesus, and depicted, in Revelation 1:7, “Behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Revelation 19:11-16, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verse 11, And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Verse 12, His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Verse 13, And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Verse 14, And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Verse 15, And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Verse 16, And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Context of His Coming as “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Revelation chapter 1-3, “The Secret Coming or The Rapture.”

The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus as, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,” is not the secret coming of the Lord for the church, commonly, and hereafter called, “the Rapture.”

At the Rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Jesus will came secretly (as a thief), without any armies. And He came only to the clouds, and will came to take the church, His bride, into heaven in order for the church to escape the Tribulation Period. The, Great Tribulation Period is a time of, “WRATH.” The wrath of God is poured out upon the face of the earth. And, in connection with the coming of the Lord Jesus to take away the church we have a precious promise that the church will not go through the time of the wrath of God upon this earth. 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The direct context, 1 Thessalonians 4:11 through chapter 5 verse 11, is the coming of the Lord Jesus. The context is not the salvation of the soul but salvation from ‘wrath.’

There are two types of tribulation in the scriptures. One type of tribulation is the persecution by the world by all saints, in every age, in every country, for following the Lord. The second type tribulation is the ‘tribulation’ of the Jews, by the entire world, in Revelation chapter 6-18.

In Revelation 2:9 and 10, for example, we see the first type of tribulation; persecution.

In Revelation 3:10, in a great promise given not only to the church at Philadelphia, but to all of the churches, the Lord Jesus personally said He would keep them from the, ‘…hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. The ‘hour of temptation’ is the Tribulation Period.

The Church Age ended in Revelation 3:22 and the ‘Rapture,’ occurred in Revelation 4:1

Revelation chapter 4 & 5, “The Throne & the Lamb.”

Revelation chapter 6-18, “The Tribulation Period or Time of Jacob’s Trouble.”

Jeremiah chapter 31. Jeremiah 31:7 and 24 specifically states that this prophesy is for the end times. “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The fierce anger of the LORD shall return, until he he hath done it, and until he hath performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.”

During this time the prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:14, 15, 21 and 22 will be fulfilled. The ‘elect’ that the Lord Jesus refers to in Matthew 24: 22 and 24 is clearly a direct reference to the nation of Israel.

Special Note:

Revelation 6:12-17, “Sixth Seal,” and 14:14-20, “Sharp Sickle.”

Describes the Events of Revelation 19:11-22

Revelation 19:11-16, “The Battle of Armageddon.”

 “…in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

The Lord Jesus comes back to the earth to take possession as a conquering King. He takes possession of the earth by war. Joel 3:9-17 is a prophecy of this Great War. This is when the earth and the heavens will ‘shake’ as prophesied by Joel and Haggai.

Joel 3:16, “The LORD shall also roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

Haggai 2:6, “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.” See Haggai 20-23 and Hebrews 12:6. The events, people involved, nations involved, and time elements concerning the Battle of Armageddon that Haggai prophesied are all literal and not allegorical.

“…and on his head were many crowns; …

During His ministry the Lord Jesus was crowned with a, ‘crown of thorns.’ In Hebrews 2:7 and 9 the Lord Jesus was crowned with, ‘glory and honor,’ and in heaven He will be crowned, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS’

“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.”

Isaiah 34:1-8 is a vivid description of this event. Isaiah 34: 4 & 6, “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all the host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. … The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.”

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen…”

This is a direct reference to the Church Age saints, the Bride, as discussed in Revelation 19:7-9. It is also the fulfillment of the promise given to the church at Thyatira, and to all of the churches, in Revelation 2:27. Please study Jude 14 & 15

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Lord Jesus returns to the clouds, not to the earth, ‘for’ His saints. In Revelation 19:11-22 the Lord Jesus comes to the earth, not just the clouds, ‘with’ his saints. It is very obvious that the two comings are separate events and no amount of convoluted ‘private,’ interpretation can reconcile the two events into one event.

To be a soldier in this army (2 Timothy 2:3), you need to take up your cross and follow Jesus. ‘No Cross – No Crown’, 2 Timothy 2:12 For those saints who are not willing fight the fight of faith, to be a good soldier for Jesus, and are ‘faint hearted,’ you may be excused from the Lord’s army. “And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart.” Deuteronomy 20:8

“…and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: …”

Psalm 2:8 & 9 will be fulfilled at this juncture, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Paul also prophesied of this time in Hebrews 10:13, “From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.” In Hebrews 10: 16 this prophecy is part of the, ‘covenant’ with God. God will keep His covenant’s; including the giving of the earth to the Lord Jesus as, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,’ over the whole earth.

“…and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

This is a fulfillment of Isaiah11:4b and verse 5 and 63:1-6 “…and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7. Due to the unbelief, hatred, sin, ungodliness, idolatry, wickedness of the nations of the earth, and the Rejection of His Son, the Wrath and Fierceness of God is being poured out upon all of the nations of the earth by the Lord Jesus Christ. For an explanation God’s thinking on the sinful way of man please go back to Jude 14 & 15. This is also a fulfillment, among other prophesies, of Micah 4:11-13, Joel 3:9-16, Zechariah 14:1-4 and Psalm 149:6-9.

“…KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Glory Hallelujah! The Lord Jesus is coming back to the earth as King! This is in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 14:9, “And the LORD shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

[Covenanter]

Interesting - a 1 post interpretation of Revelation. How could I possibly disagree with a carefully reasoned post supported by many Scriptures? 

 

I have given the basis of my disagreement by PM. 

 

I won't argue the interpretation of Revelation in this thread. I will simply post from the viewpoint that Revelation was written before AD 70, & primarily concerns AD 70, with application throughout history until Jesus returns.

 

I want to learn from brother Alan & share with him - as he shares with me in the Hebrews study. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveW]

 

Don't know what happened.....

[Alan]

Covenanter, Thank you. I am trying to only find the apprpriate scriptural references to let the scriptures interpret themselves. 

Dave, for some reason your post does not show any words at all. If you did post a comment, or point of discussion, please re-post. 

[Alan]

Brethren,

I am always open for honest and sincere comments, for or against, or discussions, on Revelation chapter 19-22. If there are questions on a particular verse mentioned, but due to space constraints, I did not write out or comment on, please let me know and we can dwell more closely to the verses in question. 

I do though tend to ignore arguments or name calling. And, I will leave a little time between lessons as all of our time on OnLine Baptist is varied.  It is my earnest hope that more of the brethren get involved with the study as prophecy is an integral part of our beliefs. If the lessons are a blessing let me know; if not, let me know what you would like to discuss.

In Christ,

Alan

[John81]

I'm reading the thread and considering what's being put forth. I appreciate the civil, Christian approach to this discussion. If I have anything to add or questions to ask in the future I will post them. At the moment, I'm finding the exchange engaging and insightful and I have no comment or question at this time.

[Covenanter]

To shorten the reply, I am deleting the Scripture quotations, just leaving the refs.

Introduction to Revelation 19:11-22. The Lord Jesus is coming back to this earth to rule and reign. This return was foretold by the Lord Jesus, and depicted, in Revelation 1:7, “Behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Revelation 19:11-16, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Context of His Coming as “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Revelation chapter 1-3, “The Secret Coming or The Rapture.”

The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus as, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,” is not the secret coming of the Lord for the church, commonly, and hereafter called, “the Rapture.”

You state that as if the so-called "rapture" was clearly taught in Scripture. The coming prophesied in 1 The. 4:13-18 is anything but secret. 1 The. 4:16. 

At the Rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Jesus will came secretly (as a thief), without any armies. And He came only to the clouds, and will came to take the church, His bride, into heaven in order for the church to escape the Tribulation Period. The, Great Tribulation Period is a time of, “WRATH.” The wrath of God is poured out upon the face of the earth. And, in connection with the coming of the Lord Jesus to take away the church we have a precious promise that the church will not go through the time of the wrath of God upon this earth. 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The direct context, 1 Thessalonians 4:11 through chapter 5 verse 11, is the coming of the Lord Jesus. The context is not the salvation of the soul but salvation from ‘wrath.’

You are reading an interpretation into the plain words of Scripture. Our deliverance when our Lord comes is contrasted with sudden destruction. 1 The. 5:3  And surely "... salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us..." IS salvation of the soul (& body.) Full salvation!

There are two types of tribulation in the scriptures. One type of tribulation is the persecution by the world by all saints, in every age, in every country, for following the Lord. The second type tribulation is the ‘tribulation’ of the Jews, by the entire world, in Revelation chapter 6-18.

In Revelation 2:9 and 10, for example, we see the first type of tribulation; persecution.

In Revelation 3:10, in a great promise given not only to the church at Philadelphia, but to all of the churches, the Lord Jesus personally said He would keep them from the, ‘…hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. The ‘hour of temptation’ is the Tribulation Period.

The Church Age ended in Revelation 3:22 and the ‘Rapture,’ occurred in Revelation 4:1 

Again interpretation by an imposed hermeneutic; John has been given letters to real living churches, all with application to every reader/hearer as we read them. He then has a series of visions beginning with heaven - God in glorious light, & then Christ triumphant in glory. As the book progresses the dreadful nature of the spiritual warfare is seen. We have a vicious enemy manifested in wicked earthly powers, including the Papacy, Islam, atheist Communism, etc.       

Revelation chapter 4 & 5, “The Throne & the Lamb.”

Revelation chapter 6-18, “The Tribulation Period or Time of Jacob’s Trouble.”

Jeremiah chapter 31. Jeremiah 31:7 and 24 specifically states that this prophesy is for the end times. “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The fierce anger of the LORD shall return, until he he hath done it, and until he hath performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.”

When did the end times, or last days or last hour begin? St Pentecost? Acts 2:17   The problem with the concept of a Rev. 1-3 referring to the church & church age, & Rev. 4-18 referring to Israel in a future tribulation, is that the ONLY mention of Israel is in Rev. 7:4 - the sealing of 144,000. A further reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (& the temple) is in Rev. 11, & a reference to "the woman" giving birth to Christ.    

During this time the prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:14, 15, 21 and 22 will be fulfilled. The ‘elect’ that the Lord Jesus refers to in Matthew 24: 22 and 24 is clearly a direct reference to the nation of Israel.

The parallel passage in Luke 21:20-24 makes it clear that Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, the subject of the prophecy. AD 70.

Special Note:

Revelation 6:12-17, “Sixth Seal,” and 14:14-20, “Sharp Sickle.”

Describes the Events of Revelation 19:11-22

Revelation 19:11-16, “The Battle of Armageddon.”

 “…in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

The Lord Jesus comes back to the earth to take possession as a conquering King. He takes possession of the earth by war. Joel 3:9-17 is a prophecy of this Great War. This is when the earth and the heavens will ‘shake’ as prophesied by Joel and Haggai.

Joel 3:16, “The LORD shall also roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

Haggai 2:6, “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.” See Haggai 20-23 and Hebrews 12:6. The events, people involved, nations involved, and time elements concerning the Battle of Armageddon that Haggai prophesied are all literal and not allegorical.

“…and on his head were many crowns; …

During His ministry the Lord Jesus was crowned with a, ‘crown of thorns.’ In Hebrews 2:7 and 9 the Lord Jesus was crowned with, ‘glory and honor,’ and in heaven He will be crowned, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS’

“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.”

Isaiah 34:1-8 is a vivid description of this event. Isaiah 34: 4 & 6, “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all the host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. … The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.”

I find it extraordinary that the Lord Jesus - God the Son, the Prince of Peace - should be personally involved in a bloody war. Note Rev. 19:15 & Rev. 1:16 - the sword is from his mouth & surely refers to his Word. That requires a figurative, not literal reading.

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen…”

This is a direct reference to the Church Age saints, the Bride, as discussed in Revelation 19:7-9. It is also the fulfillment of the promise given to the church at Thyatira, and to all of the churches, in Revelation 2:27. Please study Jude 14 & 15

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Lord Jesus returns to the clouds, not to the earth, ‘for’ His saints. In Revelation 19:11-22 the Lord Jesus comes to the earth, not just the clouds, ‘with’ his saints. It is very obvious that the two comings are separate events and no amount of convoluted ‘private,’ interpretation can reconcile the two events into one event.

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

To be a soldier in this army (2 Timothy 2:3), you need to take up your cross and follow Jesus. ‘No Cross – No Crown’, 2 Timothy 2:12 For those saints who are not willing fight the fight of faith, to be a good soldier for Jesus, and are ‘faint hearted,’ you may be excused from the Lord’s army. “And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart.” Deuteronomy 20:8 

Christian warfare is against spiritual wickedness, not against flesh & blood. Eph. 6  I don't think we should anticipate getting involved in a physical battle, & actually there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20 The wicked gather for war & perish. The saints are praising God in their 4 hallelujahs, gathering for the marriage supper, & they see their Lord completing his victory by the sword of his mouth, & the wicked are utterly condemned. God brought creation into existence by his Word, & now completes his victory over evil by his word.   

“…and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: …”

Psalm 2:8 & 9 will be fulfilled at this juncture, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

A rod of iron destroys utterly.

Paul also prophesied of this time in Hebrews 10:13, “From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.” In Hebrews 10: 16 this prophecy is part of the, ‘covenant’ with God. God will keep His covenant’s; including the giving of the earth to the Lord Jesus as, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS,’ over the whole earth.

“…and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

This is a fulfillment of Isaiah11:4b and verse 5 and 63:1-6 “…and all kindred’s of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Revelation 1:7. Due to the unbelief, hatred, sin, ungodliness, idolatry, wickedness of the nations of the earth, and the Rejection of His Son, the Wrath and Fierceness of God is being poured out upon all of the nations of the earth by the Lord Jesus Christ. For an explanation God’s thinking on the sinful way of man please go back to Jude 14 & 15. This is also a fulfillment, among other prophesies, of Micah 4:11-13, Joel 3:9-16, Zechariah 14:1-4 and Psalm 149:6-9.

“…KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Glory Hallelujah! The Lord Jesus is coming back to the earth as King! This is in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 14:9, “And the LORD shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.”

Now I agree with your conclusion. We disagree in details & interpretation, but agree in our Lord's final & complete victory, & our blessed part in that victory as we stand & fight in spiritual armour. 

 

​

 

[Alan]

I understand your comments. I have numerous commitments for the next couple of days that take precedence over this. After that, I will have time to discuss in detail your comments.

[Alan]

Revelation 19:11-16 Reply to Covenanter March 12, 2015 Questions

Covenanter said:

You state that as if the so-called "rapture" was clearly taught in Scripture. The coming prophesied in 1 The. 4:13-18 is anything but secret. 1 The. 4:16. 

 

Alan Reply:

All of the world will see the coming of the Lord Jesus as plainly stated in Revelation 1:7 and Revelation 19:11-21 Also, the Lord Jesus said, “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man.” Matthew 25:27. This coming is fulfilled in Revelation 19:11-21 When the Lord Jesus comes as pictured in Revelation 19:11-21 All of the earth shall see him.

When the Lord Jesus comes for the church in the, “Rapture,” He is coming, only to the clouds, as a thief, and only the saints that are raised will see Him. The lost peoples of the world will not see the Lord Jesus when he comes for His church. Therefore, He is coming in ‘Secret.” The exact scriptural terminology is that He coming as a, ‘Thief.’

A thief comes secretly, mostly at night, to take away the jewels, or money, or valuables, from a home, and departs as secretly as possible. That is why it is called a ‘secret,’ coming. In the direct context of the coming for the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul then states in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4, “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” OBVIOUSLY, IT CANNOT BE THE COMING THAT THE LORD JESUS MADE REFERENCE TO IN MATTHEW 25:27.

Contrary to your belief that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “...is anything but secret...’ is in error. The Lord Jesus is coming for His church as a thief and He will not reveal Himself to the world at that time.

In the eyes of God, the Lord Jesus, the church of the redeemed, are valuable: ‘treasure in a field,’ Matthew 13:44; the field is, ‘the world,’ Matthew 13:38; ‘a pearl of great price,’ Matthew 13:46. Hence, He comes as a thief, to the world, to take home his treasure.

Covenanter said:

You are reading an interpretation into the plain words of Scripture. Our deliverance when our Lord comes is contrasted with sudden destruction. 1 The. 5:3  And surely "... salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us..." IS salvation of the soul (& body.) Full salvation!

Alan Reply:

I think you need to read my first explanation more closely. You are reading into my explanation something that is not there. The scriptures speak for themselves. You are mistaken. The interpretation is based upon a literal belief in the scriptures and not an, ‘figurative,’ or ‘allegorical,’ or, ‘private,’ interpretation of scripture.

There are two types of tribulation in the scriptures. One type of tribulation is the persecution by the world by all saints, in every age, in every country, for following the Lord. The second type tribulation is the ‘tribulation’ of the Jews, by the entire world, in Revelation chapter 6-18.

In Revelation 2:9 and 10, for example, we see the first type of tribulation; persecution.

In Revelation 3:10, in a great promise given not only to the church at Philadelphia, but to all of the churches, the Lord Jesus personally said He would keep them from the, ‘…hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.’ Revelation 3:10. The ‘hour of temptation’ is the Tribulation Period.

The Church Age ended in Revelation 3:22 and the ‘Rapture,’ occurred in Revelation 4:1 

Covenanter said:

Again interpretation by an imposed hermeneutic; John has been given letters to real living churches, all with application to every reader/hearer as we read them. He then has a series of visions beginning with heaven - God in glorious light, & then Christ triumphant in glory. As the book progresses the dreadful nature of the spiritual warfare is seen. We have a vicious enemy manifested in wicked earthly powers, including the Papacy, Islam, atheist Communism, etc.

Alan reply:

You are interpreting actual events, with actual persons, in actual places, in fulfilment of literal prophecies that are being fulfilled with allegorical, figurative or self-made ‘spiritual,’ interpretations that can mean anything to anybody. What you say is, ‘spiritual warfare,’ is literal events on the earth in fulfillment of literal prophecies.

Your definition of, ‘spiritual,’ is just your spiritualizing scripture and has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit at all. Therefore, your interpretation is a private interpretation.

Revelation chapter 6-18, “The Tribulation Period or Time of Jacob’s Trouble.”

Jeremiah chapter 31. Jeremiah 31:7 and 24 specifically states that this prophesy is for the end times. “Alas! for the day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. The fierce anger of the LORD shall return, until he hath done it, and until he hath performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.”

Covenanter said:

When did the end times, or last days or last hour begin? St Pentecost? Acts 2:17   The problem with the concept of a Rev. 1-3 referring to the church & church age, & Rev. 4-18 referring to Israel in a future tribulation, is that the ONLY mention of Israel is in Rev. 7:4 - the sealing of 144,000. A further reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (& the temple) is in Rev. 11, & a reference to "the woman" giving birth to Christ.  

Alan reply:

I did not get in a discussion of ‘when the end times,’ begin. That subject is for a future post at the appropriate time. The Tribulation period is the time of Jacob’s Trouble as Jeremiah prophesied. Also, Covenanter, you are in error, the Lord Jesus, in a plain reference to the nation of Israel in Matthew 24:22 says, “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”

Covenanter you are also in error concerning that Revelation 7:4 is the only reference to the nation of Israel in the Tribulation period.

1. Revelation 11:1-13, Besides the Temple we have the Two Witnesses. This is in fulfilment of Zechariah 4:1-14. These two witnesses are Jewish prophets, (most likely Moses and Elijah) and Revelation 11:8 is a direct reference to backslidden Jerusalem.

2. Revelation 12:1-17 is a clear and unmistakable reference to the nation of Israel. Revelation 12:5 deals with this post so I will quote it, “And she [the nation of Israel] brought forth a man child [the Lord Jesus], who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” ‘...who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:...’ is a direct reference to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:15. In Revelation God gives special protection to the woman, Israel, 12:14-17, due to the persecution of the dragon.

During this time the prophecy of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:14, 15, 21 and 22 will be fulfilled. The ‘elect’ that the Lord Jesus refers to in Matthew 24: 22 and 24 is clearly a direct reference to the nation of Israel.

Covenanter said:,

The parallel passage in Luke 21:20-24 makes it clear that Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, the subject of the prophecy. AD 70.

Alan replied:

Covenanter, you are in error. Luke 21:20-24 is not a companion passage of Matthew 24:22 and 24. The elect in Matthew 24:22 is the elect nation of Israel during the Tribulation Period. Luke 21:20-24 is a direct reference to the destruction of the nation of Israel, and the Temple, in A.D. 70

 

Revelation 19:11-16, “The Battle of Armageddon.”

 “…in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

The Lord Jesus comes back to the earth to take possession as a conquering King. He takes possession of the earth by war. Joel 3:9-17 is a prophecy of this Great War. This is when the earth and the heavens will ‘shake’ as prophesied by Joel and Haggai.

Joel 3:16, “The LORD shall also roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.”

Haggai 2:6, “For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land.” See Haggai 20-23 and Hebrews 12:6. The events, people involved, nations involved, and time elements concerning the Battle of Armageddon that Haggai prophesied are all literal and not allegorical.

“…and on his head were many crowns; …

During His ministry the Lord Jesus was crowned with a, ‘crown of thorns.’ In Hebrews 2:7 and 9 the Lord Jesus was crowned with, ‘glory and honor,’ and in heaven He will be crowned, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS’

“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood.”

Isaiah 34:1-8 is a vivid description of this event. Isaiah 34: 4 & 6, “And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all the host shall fall down, as a leaf falleth off the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. … The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.”

Covenanter said.

I find it extraordinary that the Lord Jesus - God the Son, the Prince of Peace - should be personally involved in a bloody war. Note Rev. 19:15 & Rev. 1:16 - the sword is from his mouth & surely refers to his Word. That requires a figurative, not literal reading.

Alan replied.

The interpretation that the Lord Jesus Christ will not be involved in a personal bloody war is a disregard for the prophetic prophecy of Isaiah 34 and Revelation 19, as previously quoted. Your belief that it is a figurative and not a literal reading is a disbelief in the written scriptures.

It is painfully obvious that there are numerous denominations and teachers within the false churches and true church throughout the ages that also do not believe in the literal events as clearly spoken by the prophets and their fulfillment in the book of Revelation. Included, but not a total list, are the following: The Roman Catholic started the method of a ‘figurative’ interpretation of Matthew chapter 24 and 25 and the Book of Revelation, this includes: ‘Preterits,’ A-millennials, or Post-Millennial, of any denomination, and any form of, ‘Replacement Theology.’

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen…”

This is a direct reference to the Church Age saints, the Bride, as discussed in Revelation 19:7-9. It is also the fulfillment of the promise given to the church at Thyatira, and to all of the churches, in Revelation 2:27. Please study Jude 14 & 15

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the Lord Jesus returns to the clouds, not to the earth, ‘for’ His saints. In Revelation 19:11-22 the Lord Jesus comes to the earth, not just the clouds, ‘with’ his saints. It is very obvious that the two comings are separate events and no amount of convoluted ‘private,’ interpretation can reconcile the two events into one event.

Covenanter said:

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

Alan replied.

Paul never wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the Lord Coming, ‘... with his saints...’

And, the, "sudden destruction" for the ungodly,’ in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a direct reference to the fact that after the rapture the Tribulation Period starts.

Furthermore, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is a direct reference to the coming of the Lord Jesus as a conquering King in Revelation 19:11-22 It is not a reference, nor even in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 This improper ‘dividing’ of scripture is in serious error.

To be a soldier in this army (2 Timothy 2:3), you need to take up your cross and follow Jesus. ‘No Cross – No Crown’, 2 Timothy 2:12 For those saints who are not willing fight the fight of faith, to be a good soldier for Jesus, and are ‘faint hearted,’ you may be excused from the Lord’s army. “And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren’s heart faint as well as his heart.” Deuteronomy 20:8 

Covenanter said:

Christian warfare is against spiritual wickedness, not against flesh & blood. Eph. 6  I don't think we should anticipate getting involved in a physical battle, & actually there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20 The wicked gather for war & perish. The saints are praising God in their 4 hallelujahs, gathering for the marriage supper, & they see their Lord completing his victory by the sword of his mouth, & the wicked are utterly condemned. God brought creation into existence by his Word, & now completes his victory over evil by his word.   

Alan replied:

Covenanter stated, ‘...there are no physical battles fought in Rev. 19 & 20...’ That statement is a dis-belief of the literal battle of Revelation chapter 19 and 20 in fulfillment Isaiah 34:1-8 and Psalm 2:8 & 9

“…and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: …”

Psalm 2:8 & 9 will be fulfilled at this juncture, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Covenanter said:

A rod of iron destroys utterly.

Alan reply:

Yes it does. That is the correct, and very plain and clear, interpretation of what God Almighty said about His Son the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus will destroy, literally, the current world systems of government and replace every one with his own. Isaiah, and other prophets, prophesied the destruction of the world systems as will be fulfilled by the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:11-22.

Covenanter said:

Now I agree with your conclusion. We disagree in details & interpretation, but agree in our Lord's final & complete victory, & our blessed part in that victory as we stand & fight in spiritual armour. 

 Alan,

Thank you. We do both agree on the final victory of the Lord Jesus in all areas. I will upload the next lesson, Revelation 19:17-21 in a few days.

[Covenanter]

Alan - I am offended by your disparaging tone & personal attack. I hoped that we could study the Scripture from different viewpoints in a courteous & constructive manner. I was mistaken.

I'll just comment on one section of the exchange.

Covenanter said:

We know that Jesus coming with & for his saints in 1 The. 4 is "sudden destruction" for the ungodly. 1 The. 5:3 not a period of war. Paul makes this clear in 2 The. 1:7-10 - everlasting destruction by fire. See Rev. 20:9  

Alan replied.

Paul never wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the Lord Coming, ‘... with his saints...’ Now, in the new corrupt versions of the scriptures of the scriptures, that may be true: but, I double-checked my trusty, reliable, preserved, Authorized Version commonly known as the King James Version of 1611, and I failed to see where the Lord Jesus in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 said, ‘...with his saints.' Are you using a NIV? Are you using a Jehovah’s Witnesses New World Version? Is that the quote from The Living Bible? I did not check the New KJV (NKJV). Maybe it’s in the NKJV? Are you using the latest new-fangled version in print? The last time checked, not counting the New Greek translations, there were 276 new versions of the Bible since 1881.

And, the, "sudden destruction" for the ungodly,’ in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a direct reference to the fact that after the rapture the Tribulation Period starts.

Furthermore, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is a direct reference to the coming of the Lord Jesus as a conquering King in Revelation 19:11-22 It is not a reference, nor even in the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 This improper ‘dividing’ of scripture is in serious error.

"With his saints" ... what does the KJV say?

1 The. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 The. 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You speak of FACT when you reject the obvious reference to 1 The. 5:3 to 2 The. 1:7-10 . 

No the FACT is that you are imposing a false interpretation system on the clear words of Scripture, and even denying the clear words of Scripture to impose your system.

Claiming that sudden destruction is simply the start of a 7 year tribulation period, & is not related to  everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  is simply nonsense. Paul's writing is inspired; your's & mine are not. What we write must be a fair comment on what Paul wrote, not based on someone else's private interpretation. Please start reading & believing the Bible for yourself, rather than making disparaging remarks that show your ignorance & lack of understanding of the KVJ. 

  

 

 

[John81]

Sad to see this thread deteriorating. A civil, Christian approach is so much more helpful.

[Invicta]

  Rev 1:1 ¶  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 

Rev was signified, meaning it was given  in signs or figures.  We would say symbols.  Allegory is something different.  

When a sign is explained, it helps us to understand the rest, as scripture does not contradict itself.    Note; Rev was given to the church not to the Jews.  It was written to the church and concerns the church throughout.

 

[Alan]

John 81,

The tread has not deteriorated on my account. I have been civil and understanding on our differences.

 

Since the last few days, I have been called a traitor by Pilgrim and Covenanter agreed. Covenanter called my country, the United States of America, a Fascist Country, and you pretty well agreed. Covenanter wrote he did not like my 'tone,' and you call me uncivil! Ah, come on now! You got to be kidding me!  Are both of you serious! If you are, both of you are being hypocritical.

 

Then, Covenanter said this: "I too reject private interpretation. One reason for the difference in our understanding is the Altantic Ocean, & the influence of Scofield on the American Bible colleges. As a result dispensationalism has become orthodoxy, rather than Covenant theology. "

 

Covenanter directly implied that my teaching was, '...private interpretation..' throughout this study he says that the teaching of the literal events of Revelations is a 'private teaching.' And, even though I have not quoted Scofield one time in this study he says that the influence of Scofield has resulted in the 'American Bible colleges," being 'unorthodox' and his teaching 'orthodox.' 

 

Covenanter  has never had the Christian courtesy to ask if I have been to Bible College, and if I have, where I have been to Bible College and If I follow Scofield's teaching. I have not even quoted from Scofield! Probably after this post he will probably. Then, he, or somebody else that does agree with me, will probably find something bad about the College (if I did go to Bible College in America).

 

You, Covenanter and Pilgrim blame me for non-existent problems: such as lack of civility, and other un-Christian attributes in an effort to downgrade my teaching. The slander that I have first received by you brethren is not only uncalled for, extremely un-Christian, and I think, done deliberately to berate me for my biblical teaching and patriotic beliefs.

 

The teaching of the fulfillment of the prophetic events are fulfilled literally in the book of Revelation. To believe in, 'Preterist,' or  'Replacement Theology,' or  'Covenant theology,' and other figurative, allegorical, or fantastical beliefs is a dis-belief in the scriptures, the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul the Apostle. Because of my teaching I am being slandered, lied at, and maligned. If you do not agree with me then ask me specific questions and not malign  my character.

 

And you call me uncivil. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 That, my friend is what is happening to me due to my Patriotic stand and the literal interpretation of the Prophets and the Book of Revelation.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Alan
spelling twice (three times)