Grace Vs Faith, Salvation?

[longskirtstshirts]

I read a debate on another forum about salvation and "Lordship salvation." Just wondering if anyone could give me some clarity on these topics.

 

John 3:16 says "...that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Thus, all it takes for salvation is to BELIEVE. Repentance and good works are the fruit of a faithful Christian, but without them you are still a believer and still saved? Or is repentance ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY? I repent for my sins and do what I believe to be "good works" for my friends, family, church, community and witness, educate, etc. But is that necessary to salvation?

 

Are grace (i.e. "saved by the grace of God) and faith the same thing? For example I considered myself saved from the moment I believed Jesus was real and was God and died for my sins (and that I was, and am, of course, a sinner). But I did not understand the GRACE of that act (being crucified) until much later when I realized that it would take a very GRACIOUS God to be crucified for people so undeserving as us sinners. I don't think I "had" the "grace of God" until I came to that understanding (which was a matter of maturing a few years and realization that ASKING God for things when he had already given me so much I did not deserve was ridiculous). I hope this makes sense and someone can shed some light on it for me.

[Covenanter]

Hi lady, welcome to the forum.

I read a debate on another forum about salvation and "Lordship salvation." Just wondering if anyone could give me some clarity on these topics.

 

I've seen a number of testimonies to the effect that salvation was 2 stage-

1. I accepted Jesus as my Saviour;

2. Years later, I accepted Jesus as my Lord & so began to live as a saved person.

As if salvation did not involve a change of life, saved by simply believing without repentance, works, worship, service, etc. 

 

John 3:16 says "...that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Thus, all it takes for salvation is to BELIEVE.

 

John 3:16 does not stand alone. It has a context that speaks of being born again, of water & the Spirit. What does it mean to "believe in Jesus?" What are we saved from? What is everlasting life? And before all that, what is your condition in the sight of a holy God? Can we be saved without our lives being changed? 

 

Oh dear! It's all getting complicated. So complicated that a religious teacher like Nicodemus had difficulty understanding. What hope is there for me? 

 

Repentance and good works are the fruit of a faithful Christian, but without them you are still a believer and still saved? Or is repentance ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY?

 

Repentance is NOT the fruit, but the essential prerequisite, as John, Jesus & the Apostles make absolutely clear. These texts should show up when you point at them with the cursor:

Mark 1:4 Mark 1:15 Mat. 3:2 Acts 2:38 Acts 26:20

A prerequisite of repentance is a conviction of sin - guilty before a holy God, & deserving punishment for sin, so repentance is turning from sin to God for forgiveness & new Spirit-given life. Conviction is not repentance, nor is it salvation - we can be convicted of our sin & deliberately turn from God, & continue in sin. Rom. 6:1-4 

 

I repent for my sins and do what I believe to be "good works" for my friends, family, church, community and witness, educate, etc. But is that necessary to salvation?

 

You can do those things without repentance & without salvation. Our works, even what we consider our righteousness, can NEVER merit salvation. Isaiah 64:6  We need cleansing in the blood of Jesus. 1 Peter 1:18-19  Rev. 7:9 Rev. 7:14

 

The quality of life that is evidence of salvation is the fruit of the indwelling Holy Spirit.  Gal. 5:22-25

 

Are grace (i.e. "saved by the grace of God) and faith the same thing? For example I considered myself saved from the moment I believed Jesus was real and was God and died for my sins (and that I was, and am, of course, a sinner). But I did not understand the GRACE of that act (being crucified) until much later when I realized that it would take a very GRACIOUS God to be crucified for people so undeserving as us sinners. I don't think I "had" the "grace of God" until I came to that understanding (which was a matter of maturing a few years and realization that ASKING God for things when he had already given me so much I did not deserve was ridiculous). I hope this makes sense and someone can shed some light on it for me.

 

Grace is God reaching down to us, while faith is taking hold of that grace. God is gracious, but sinners are not saved without repentance & faith. Then we begin to live the everlasting life he gives. Eph. 2:7-10

 

I hope that doesn't seem too complicated.

 

Easy salvation by the "sinner's prayer" is often preached - & is questioned as a formality - salvation without repentance & without a living faith. But a sinner's prayer from the heart is salvation: 

"Lord Jesus, I am a guilty sinner, deserving punishment by a Holy God;

please accept me, forgive me, cleanse my sins by your blood shed for sinners on the cross;

and give me new life through your Holy Spirit;

help me to walk in your way, in love for you & for others.

Amen." 

 

Praying such a prayer in response to a preacher's invitation is not automatically salvation, unless it is truly from the heart. How can we know? The Holy Spirit comes into our lives, giving the first-fruit of the Spirit - Love. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Covenanter

[longskirtstshirts]

Hi lady, welcome to the forum.

 

I hope that doesn't seem too complicated.

 

Easy salvation by the "sinner's prayer" is often preached - & is questioned as a formality - salvation without repentance & without a living faith. But a sinner's prayer from the heart is salvation: 

"Lord Jesus, I am a guilty sinner, deserving punishment by a Holy God;

please accept me, forgive me, cleanse my sins by your blood shed for sinners on the cross;

and give me new life through your Holy Spirit;

help me to walk in your way, in love for you & for others.

Amen." 

 

Praying such a prayer in response to a preacher's invitation is not automatically salvation, unless it is truly from the heart. How can we know? The Holy Spirit comes into our lives, giving the first-fruit of the Spirit - Love. 

 

So this answers my question perfectly. I have always questioned if you are saved if all you do is say you believe, say the "sinner's prayer", etc. I have friends who would tell you they are saved and yet they show no outward sign whatsoever, are still sinning daily in their conduct and speech, and there is no evidence at all that Jesus had any impact on their life. They (apparently) think you can just beg forgiveness and BAM! you're good to go. But I have always been taught that you cannot be forgiven if you do not repent, because only then are you truly "sorry" for what you have done, if you turn away from it. OBviously NO ONE can ever not sin, but making no effort whatsoever is not really indicative that God is in your life. If you are saved, people should be able to tell, right? 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

2 Corinthians 7:10 (KJV)
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

If one is truly sorrowful for sinning against Almighty God, that one will show signs of repentance.

[Genevanpreacher]

2 Corinthians 7:10 (KJV)
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

If one is truly sorrowful for sinning against Almighty God, that one will show signs of repentance.

 

A little deeper reading here:

 

⁸ For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

⁹ Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

¹⁰ For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

¹¹ For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

 

Sorrowing to repentance, means it bothered you enough to change! (read verse 11 carefully, and you will see what real repentance produces.)

Edited February 8, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[wretched]

This is a great thread that has definitely demonstrated that repentance is a change of heart and mind about God and sin never to be changed back

[Genevanpreacher]

This is a great thread that has definitely demonstrated that repentance is a change of heart and mind about God and sin never to be changed back

 

Heb. 6 - 

⁶ If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

⁷ For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

⁸ But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

⁹ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[Falling away does not accompany salvation]

 

And

 

Heb. 10 -

³⁸ Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

³⁹ But we are NOT of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

[And there is a 'drawing back', but it's NOT unto perdition.]

 

Security is a wonderful thing!

[Potatochip]

1 Corinthians 6:19-20King James Version (KJV)

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

One of my favorites.

An Armienian preacher quoted me the exact verse you have quoted up there. Last night. A young guy (they always seem to be young). I pointed out the We are persuaded better things of you. However. Thank you for being so OBservant. I missed the and the things that accompany salvation. I will point that out. Thank you.

[heartstrings]

Mark 5:25-30

25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, 26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, 27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. 28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. 29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? Word Origin and History for graceExpand

The "Grace" of God is His 'Unmerited Favor". As Almighty God, the Great Physician, walked through that thronging crowd, He was full of the Grace of God. John 1:14 . But the woman had to "touch" him with all her heart to get it.

 

Grace n.

late 12c., "God's favor or help," from Old French grace "pardon, divine grace, mercy; favor, thanks; elegance, virtue" (12c.), from Latin gratia "favor, esteem, regard; pleasing quality, good will, gratitude" (source of Italian grazia, Spanish gracia), from gratus "pleasing, agreeable," from PIE root *gwere- "to favor" (cf. Sanskrit grnati "sings, praises, announces," Lithuanian giriu "to praise, celebrate," Avestan gar- "to praise").

[Salyan]

This is a great thread that has definitely demonstrated that repentance is a change of heart and mind about God and sin never to be changed back.

​This is it. Repentance is a requirement for salvation - but it is not, as some people try to make it, a physical action, whether that be a ceasing to 'do' (stop sinning) or an feeling.

Faith is our trust in God. Grace is what He extends to us - whether we understand it or not. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Salyan

[Genevanpreacher]

Faith = pistis

Believe (with all thine heart) = pisteueis (πιστεύεις - Stevens 1550 edition of the Textus Receptus)

Trust = pistis

Notice the closeness of the original Greek words.

[RevBob]

John 3:16 says "...that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Thus, all it takes for salvation is to BELIEVE.

​Correct!  But...  will people just believe?  Is belief a decision?  It is not.  Only those that have Grace will truly and sincerely believe.  Those who don't will not, will lose their "faith", or will believe in false religions.  John 3:18 tells us of those: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed ^{(past tense!)} in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Repentance and good works are the fruit of a faithful Christian, but without them you are still a believer and still saved?

If you believe, then you WILL repent.  If you're Saved, you will do good works. 

Or is repentance ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY?

It's a consequence of true belief, not a requirement.

I repent for my sins and do what I believe to be "good works" for my friends, family, church, community and witness, educate, etc. But is that necessary to salvation?

No, these are a consequence of Salvation.  Obviously one doesn't have to be Saved to do some good works, but whoever is truly Saved invariably WILL do good works.

 

Are grace (i.e. "saved by the grace of God) and faith the same thing? For example I considered myself saved from the moment I believed Jesus was real and was God and died for my sins

No, not same.  True faith requires Grace.

(and that I was, and am, of course, a sinner).

If you are truly Saved, you're no longer a sinner.  It's like if you were a malignant liar, but then reformed from being a liar, then you're no longer a liar.  An occasional unintentional lie may slip through, but that doesn't make you a liar--unless it's intentional and malicious.

[Gorship]

Saying the sinners prayer won't save you, believing in Jesus and that He paid the debt saves you. You can't repent and then get saved, you will never clean enough sin off of you to be welcomed into God's house, it's your faith in Jesus and the overwelming grace that He extends to us with His body on the cross that show us how filthy we are, and because He loved us so much, changing our ways of self to serving Him and leaving all behind to be obedient to Him (repentance) is the result. Faith preceeds repentance but they are two halves of the same coin. Acts 16: 25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. 26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. ----- Don't over complicate the simple message of the Bible and the cross. All of history has been penned as God providing a way for all to love Him.

[Old-Pilgrim]

did my post go through?

[Genevanpreacher]

did my post go through?

​Um, yep!