Eternal Security Taught In Hebrews 6

[candlelight]

You are a very good Christian man, NN.  

[AVBibleBeliever]

I want to publicly apologize to AVBibleBeliever for anything that I said that may have caused strife.  If anyone else was offended by anything that I said, you also have my most sincere apology.

 

Most of all, I apologize for bringing any reproach upon the name and cause of Jesus Christ.

I forgive you and I ask for your forgiveness, and I apologize to the forum for any reproach upon our Lords name as well as well

[ASongOfDegrees]

Quoting the Bible isn't biblical?

That's a new one on me.

And as for it being future?

"Nicodemus, you must be born again - but not yet..."

Sorry - I musta missed that verse...

Couldn't have been born again when they didn't understand the gospel. In fact, it was hid from them. 

 

Luke 18:31-34

 

[31] Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
[32] For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
[33] And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
[34] And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

[DaveW]

But that doesn't say they could not understand - it says they didn't understand - and Nicodemus was not among them. It is not a general statement but a specific one.

It still stands that Jesus Himself told Nicodemus he must be born again in a present tense in a current conversation.

And there is no indication in that conversation of Jesus suggesting that it was something not available to Nicodemus presently.

The plain fact of Scripture is that the new birth was offered to Nicodemus before the possibility of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The necessary conclusion is that the new birth was available without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
In at least this one specific case being born again was independent of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

To pull a totally unrelated incident into the account of Nicodemus is irrelevant.
It has absolutely no bearing on the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus.

[ASongOfDegrees]

New birth is a metaphor that Nicodemus asked Jesus to explain - & Jesus expect him to know, as a master of Israel.

 

David knew the indwelling Holy Spirit:

Psalm 51:¹⁰ Create in me a clean heart, O God;
and renew a right spirit within me.
¹¹ Cast me not away from thy presence;
and take not thy holy spirit from me.
¹² Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation;
and uphold me with thy free spirit.

 

The patriarchs were born after the Spirit.

Gal. 4:²⁸ Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. ²⁹ But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. ³⁰ Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. ³¹ So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

Change the metaphor to a circumcised heart -

Deut. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

The sinner who comes to God, his soul becomes alive -

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

 

As for John being written long after the events, does the time of writing change the meaning? John was recording the words of Jesus teaching people during his time on earth.

1) David should have gone to hell because under the law there was no blood sacrifice for murder. But God made an exception for him and called it "the sure merices of David". Notice two things also. One, that David prayed not to have the "holy spirit" (lower case, not yet revealed as a Person of the Trinity) removed from him signifying one could lose the holy spirit in the OT. Two, the "sure mericies of David" are a type of our present day salvation (Acts 13:34). This still does not mean he was born again. If they were born again the the OT then what was the big deal about the gospel? They would have already known it and had been preaching it.

 

2) Paul is speaking in an allegory here and not literally (Gal. 4:28). You never build NT church doctrine on allegories. Do you believe Hagar is literally Mt. Sinai?

 

3) Circumcision of the heart in the OT is a metaphor but in the NT it is a true spiritual operation of God (Col. 2:11-13).

 

4) Refer to #1.

 

The events in the gospel of John being written after Paul's epistles is significant. The words of Christ were brought to John's remembrance after the revelation given to Paul (John 14:26).. That's why the gospel of John is so different from the other three. John's gospel verified what Paul was preaching and what the apostles had a hard time grasping (II Peter 3:15,16).

[ASongOfDegrees]

But that doesn't say they could not understand - it says they didn't understand - and Nicodemus was not among them. It is not a general statement but a specific one.

It still stands that Jesus Himself told Nicodemus he must be born again in a present tense in a current conversation.

And there is no indication in that conversation of Jesus suggesting that it was something not available to Nicodemus presently.

The plain fact of Scripture is that the new birth was offered to Nicodemus before the possibility of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The necessary conclusion is that the new birth was available without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
In at least this one specific case being born again was independent of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

To pull a totally unrelated incident into the account of Nicodemus is irrelevant.
It has absolutely no bearing on the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus.

The new birth and the indwelling/sealing of the Holy Spirit are inextricably linked for a man's spirit can not be regenerated without that union. You can't have one without the other. The spirit of man is regenerated via his union with the risen Christ which is a work accomplished by the Holy Ghost. 

 

How can they be born again as we are today if the gospel was HID from them? Are you going to say someone can be born again by believing something other than the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ? It was hid from them. If God hides something from you your are not going to understand it nor could you until the time he reveals it to you. They didn't understand it (nor could they) and were afraid to ask him about it? They were not looking for any death of a Savior or a spiritual kingdom to arrive. What they were expecting was a King and a literal kingdom. I don't see how this can't be any clearer.

 

The bottom line is that there was no remission of sins, no justification, no new birth and no entering heaven until Jesus Christ first made the atonement, rose again, led captivity captive, gave the gift of his Spirit to men, and sprinkled the way in heaven with his blood. Until that time mankind had to keep God's commandments and perform the sacrifices (which was a curse and only temporarily removed sin) and then when they died had to wait in Abraham's Bosom until Christ would lead them out. 

[DaveW]

Would you care to Biblically support the statement that there is no new birth without the Holy Spirit?

It is quite clear that Jesus was speaking in the present tense when he told Nicodemus that he must be born again.

Now matter how you cut it Jesus spoke plainly of the new birth to Nicodemus before the Holy Spirit was available.

Now unless you can unequivocally display that the new birth is not possible without the Holy Spirit, I am afraid I will align with Jesus as He spoke to Nicodemus.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

[No Nicolaitans]

I forgive you and I ask for your forgiveness, and I apologize to the forum for any reproach upon our Lords name as well as well

 

Very good...let's forget those things that are behind us and move forward.  Thank you.

[Covenanter]

1) David should have gone to hell because under the law there was no blood sacrifice for murder. But God made an exception for him and called it "the sure merices of David". Notice two things also. One, that David prayed not to have the "holy spirit" (lower case, not yet revealed as a Person of the Trinity) removed from him signifying one could lose the holy spirit in the OT. Two, the "sure mericies of David" are a type of our present day salvation (Acts 13:34). This still does not mean he was born again. If they were born again the the OT then what was the big deal about the gospel? They would have already known it and had been preaching it.

 

2) Paul is speaking in an allegory here and not literally (Gal. 4:28). You never build NT church doctrine on allegories. Do you believe Hagar is literally Mt. Sinai?

 

3) Circumcision of the heart in the OT is a metaphor but in the NT it is a true spiritual operation of God (Col. 2:11-13).

 

4) Refer to #1.

 

The events in the gospel of John being written after Paul's epistles is significant. The words of Christ were brought to John's remembrance after the revelation given to Paul (John 14:26).. That's why the gospel of John is so different from the other three. John's gospel verified what Paul was preaching and what the apostles had a hard time grasping (II Peter 3:15,16).

1) The Holy Spirit IS God - a person of the Trinity. David acknowledges his sin & expects restoration as a repentant sinner. The sacrifices were accepted by God because of Calvary, not because they were effective in themselves.

 

2) The allegory is used by Paul to illustrate what he is teaching, & the statements he makes are clear. Do you reject the points he is making?

 

3) Inspired metaphors illustrate valid doctrine. Heart renewal is & was real.

 

4) We should understand the OT by the NT - OT "pictures" are made clear by Jesus' saving work. The perfect salvation Jesus brings is the basis for OT salvation.

 

All the Gospels were written after Pentecost, &  probably after Acts 15. ALL the inspired writers wrote at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. "Grasping it" was not an issue for what was written.

[Ukulelemike]

OK, as stated there are many things hard to understand and as to how someone gets from the earth into heaven during the kingdom is one of those things.

 

How does someone not saved of one of the nations described in Zac 14 get eternal life?

 

Now remember Hebrews11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  So Jesus Is seen sitting on the throne in Jerusalem so faith in him is not so much an issue, seeing faith is described as the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen.  Christ work on the cross may still be a portion of how one is saved but it is not all of how they get to heaven.  Because there will be no adding to the body of Christ obviously because that stopped at the gathering of the body of Christ into the clouds unto Jesus evermore to be with him.  After the gathering of the body of Christ, all people who believe the kingdom gospel that comes back into play when God restarts he dealings with Israel.

 

So here is where we must seek what goes on in the kingdom for the 1000 years before the great white throne Judgement.  Very little to know but Zac 14 gives us a little idea.

 

the last gospel spoken to unregenerated mankind before Christ coming was "Rev 14:6, 7 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

Those that remained last heard this gospel so the previous Kingdom Gospel in no longer active once it is preached.  You must remember by this time in earths future 90% of the worlds population has been killed off.

 

Alright so the remaining ones bow in worship and fearing God like you wont believe, they see that it is that Jesus you had been telling them about but they no longer can believe the Gospel of Grace because that was a pre-tribulation Gospel.  they can no longer believe the kingdom Preparation gospel because the tribulation is over, so they are under th everlating Gospel that the angel proclaimed. 

 

Jesus Come sets up his kingdom Israels land is suddenly perfect lions and lambs living side by side, children playing with poisonous snakes but they don't bite, perfect weather, the whole country if Israel is flourishing and filed with great trees and so forth, it is just a wonderful place to be.  It 's boarders are from the Mediterranean sea to the river Euphrates, from the the great Nile and the whole of the Sinai peninsula up to the southern boarders of Turkey.  This was the actual land mass promise to Abraham, then Issac and then Jacob Gen 15:18-21.

 

Now a Gentile wants to get to heaven, they are fearing God who is Jesus Christ sitting on the throne.  they must come to Jerusalem and keep the feast of tabernacles as described in Zac 14, they must keep the teaching of Jesus when he taught the kingdom precepts in Matthew chapters 5, 6 and 7.  He knows that Jesus Died for sin and any sacrifices he brings are not for his sin but an act of worship, he keeps the kingdom precepts all his life in faith of God's word that those who live by one must keep them all. By faith he believes that if he keeps those things and goes to the feasts as commanded and then dies in his faith that he will be allowed into heaven at the great white throne judgement . 

 

then at the great white throne judgement when the books are opened he is judged out of them Rev 20:11-14, but he still was not perfect and this is where the blood of Christ comes in just as the blood of sacrifices for Abraham did not make him perfect and grace was afforded him at the resurrection, so shall it be for the one in under the Kingdom.  His name is written in the lamb's book of life (Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.) and he is permitted to enter into the New Jerusalem, partake of the tree of life drink of the waters of life, there he will get his eternal perfected body in the age they were when they died, because the leaves healed them as the word says in Rev.22:1-5 ¶ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.    In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.   And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.   And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

All of this I learned by rightly dividing the word as I studied and as the Holy Ghost taught 1Cor 2:13, 14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.   But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Except it will be just as impossible for a man in the flesh to keep all of Jesus' sayings then, as it is now, or ever has been. If they will have to keep Jesus' sayings, which were based on the law, and given to people under the law, they will ALL die in their sins.

 

The same blood of Christ will save, even then.

 

Think: the apostles had Jesus in the flesh, yet we see 11 had faith in Him for who He was, and one rejected Him. 11 received the Holy Ghost, and the one did not, but died in his sins.

 

So at the end, when Jesus reigns, even those who see Him will have to receive Him by faith, or knowingly reject Him, and receiving or rejecting will still have the same consequences. Jesus' blood will never lose its efficacy to save.

[No Nicolaitans]

Except it will be just as impossible for a man in the flesh to keep all of Jesus' sayings then, as it is now, or ever has been. If they will have to keep Jesus' sayings, which were based on the law, and given to people under the law, they will ALL die in their sins.

 

The same blood of Christ will save, even then.

 

Think: the apostles had Jesus in the flesh, yet we see 11 had faith in Him for who He was, and one rejected Him. 11 received the Holy Ghost, and the one did not, but died in his sins.

 

So at the end, when Jesus reigns, even those who see Him will have to receive Him by faith, or knowingly reject Him, and receiving or rejecting will still have the same consequences. Jesus' blood will never lose its efficacy to save.

 

Exactly...even though they will see Jesus Christ in the flesh, they will still have to accept by faith that he shed his blood, died, was buried, and rose from the dead as the only sacrifice for their sins.  

[Jim_Alaska]

 

I have tried to get folks to think about the difference serving God was in the OT to what it is today. There was no regeneration of the Spirit in the OT no matter who told you there was. There was never a single instance of a second birth and your teachers nor you will ever be able to demonstrate it with Scripture. 

 

I think it is simple-minded to keep proclaiming salvation was always the same. Faith to please God, yes; faith to save, yes; the new birth; NEVER in the OT and Revelation seems clear that it will be that way again, no indwelling Spirit, new birth, regeneration, etc.

 

Salvation and how it is accomplished has never changed, just as Jesus has never changed.

 

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

 

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

[wretched]

Salvation and how it is accomplished has never changed, just as Jesus has never changed.

 

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

 

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

I have swung back to IFB children's church and do agree with you again. Why fight it.

[Invicta]

A couple of OBservations on early posts:

 

They were already in the last days.

 

Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

Acts 2:38. 

 

38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

Is followed by Acts 2:39.

 

39  For the promise is unto you, (those who he was addressing) and to your children, and to all that are afar off, (that is you and I) even as many as the Lord our God shall call.