Ccm Being Used By Temple Baptist Church Powell, Tn (Pastor Clarence Sexton)

[auburn_tiger]

The one thing that gets me with Christians using the term CCM, is that CCM is a broad term. I personally like southern gospel versus Christian "rock, pop, etc." I will say that there is a huge difference between southern gospel and other Christian music. I have been to my fair share of southern gospel concerts, and other Christian concerts. The last southern gospel was at First Baptist Atlanta with 4 or 5 groups and the last other Christian concert was last night. The southern gospel groups was all about ministry where the concert last night seemed more of entertainment. I felt like I was at a secular concert instead of a Christian concert. I have never had that feeling with southern gospel concerts.

 

So if a church use southern gospel music that they are going the way of the world and are CCM? if that is the case then how come some of these churches are being used greatly by God?

[DaveW]

Well it is certainly true that the definition of CCM varies according to who is making the definition......

And it is also true that often (although not always) what is acceptable is swayed by our own personal likes and dislikes.

I think there are some principles to follow regarding music, but I also think that the line of definition is not as solid as some suggest.

It is actually the same in worldly music too. I used to work with a bunch of guys who were involved in Metal music.
They had all sorts of descriptions and definitions for the various layers and levels of metal music whereas I lumped it all under one heading - Rubbish!

The plain fact is that there are parts of CCM that are not God honouring, but there are parts that are acceptable. And the reasons for it being one side or the other also vary from style right through to association.
But blanket statements by their nature cover all sorts of things, some of which don't really belong under that blanket.

I hope that all makes sense?

[candlelight]

Rut-roh... another thread on CCM music?     I think I will be moving right along...   

[HappyChristian]

The one thing that gets me with Christians using the term CCM, is that CCM is a broad term. I personally like southern gospel versus Christian "rock, pop, etc." I will say that there is a huge difference between southern gospel and other Christian music. I have been to my fair share of southern gospel concerts, and other Christian concerts. The last southern gospel was at First Baptist Atlanta with 4 or 5 groups and the last other Christian concert was last night. The southern gospel groups was all about ministry where the concert last night seemed more of entertainment. I felt like I was at a secular concert instead of a Christian concert. I have never had that feeling with southern gospel concerts.

 

So if a church use southern gospel music that they are going the way of the world and are CCM? if that is the case then how come some of these churches are being used greatly by God?

Also, FWIW, it is the CCM artists/historians themselves who use the term.  It is an umbrella term which covers (in their words) Christian pop, rock, ska, swing, etc.

[John81]

Also, FWIW, it is the CCM artists/historians themselves who use the term.  It is an umbrella term which covers (in their words) Christian pop, rock, ska, swing, etc.

What is ska?

 

Southern Gospel, hymns and even country and bluegrass are also often labeled as CCM.

[HappyChristian]

What is ska?  Ska is a mixture.  It combines Caribbean mento (a type of Jamaican folk music) with calypso, jazz, and R & B.  It originated in Jamaica in the '50s and spread here in the '60s.  I only know what I know about it because we had an author of a book about it come to the library - and I had to write the press release.  

 

Southern Gospel, hymns and even country and bluegrass are also often labeled as CCM.  They can be, but not really by the CCM folk themselves.  It's more other people lumping it in.  

[Steve Schwenke]

Robmac, I hardly think the devil would "infiltrate" our churches with people who want MORE separation.  It seems to me that our old enemy moves very subtly, softly, and often undetected, by slowly but surely moving the line of separation little by little.  Your entire argument is nonsensical.  You seem to be saying that since YOU can't make heads or tails on this issue of music, that it is therefore a "non-issue."  Only the evolutionary philosophers judge the present by the past, which you are doing.  You are saying that since they did something THEN, we can do it NOW. 

Well, Solomon built a temple for the Lord in the Old TEstament.  Should we build another one today?  No. 

The entire Christian culture as an entire unit was a far cry different from what we have today, beginning with the fact that ALL Christian denominations had only ONE BIBLE, and most Christians believed that ONE BIBLE to be the perfect word of God (I say most to allow for the lunatic fringe in the scholar's union!) 

Today, most of these CCM writers don't believe ANY Bible to be perfect, let alone the "word of God."  They go by their feelings and experience.  Many are involved in the occult.  David Cloud has documented this time and again.

[Steve Schwenke]

Observations:

1.  A syncopated song designed to be played and sung with syncopation sounds AWFUL when someone tries to "clean it up."  The music was written a certain way to illicit a certain response.  When you pull that structure out of the song, the song sounds and feels as though it were missing something....and it is....so WHY BOTHER in the first place???

2.  I don't understand why places like Temple Baptist and West Coast Baptist would even consider messing around with songs written by these modern CCM clowns.  We don't have enough songs of our own?  We don't have enough hymns and "spiritual songs?"  Why would the pastors of these churches allow their music team to dig into the CCM world to find "new" songs?  It makes no sense to me....and yes, I blame the pastors...and I can, since I am one.  The pastor is the one who gives account for the church, so he is in fact, "in charge."  There is no getting out of it, and especially not the excuse of "musical ignorance."

3.  I don't understand why some people take issue with us when we point out a MAJOR FLAW in a large, influential work.  Whatever Clarence Sexton and Paul Chappel have done in the past, and are currently doing now, is being completely mitigated by their refusal to make a clean separation with ungodly music.  Whether they want to admit it or not, they are making an endorsement of the entire industry.  As others have testified here, it is creeping into our larger churches across the nation.  And yet, some here would say that we should not make an issue of it???  Well, anyone familiar with the Epistles of Paul knows that the Apostle Paul was not ashamed to name names, and denounce those who had fallen away from following the Lord, even confronting Peter, and then writing about it!  (Galatians 2).  Error is error, and it must be named and refuted and renounced.

4.  The Ohio Patriot said that he was going to "stick with godly men."  I would encourage all of us to "stick with the BIBLE" and be more loyal to Christ than to men.  Men are just that - men, and we are still in our fallen, depraved, sinful shells of flesh.  Man cannot be trusted, but God can.  When somebody places ample evidence of a good man's error right out in front of us, then maybe we need to be humble enough to say, "Maybe I need to look into this a little bit closer.  Maybe this fellow is falling away from the Biblical position." 

I have my favorite Bible teachers, preachers, etc., and I can tell you without hesitating that they ALL have flaws somewhere.  Music is such an important part of our lives and it affects us on many levels, whether or not the person is aware of it.  The Devil was a musician, and loves to meddle in that arena.  So that gives us that much more impetus to be that much more CAREFUL in this area, not only personally, but also corporately as a church.  I can hardly think that the Lord would judge us too severely for being overly cautious, than overly indulgent in our liberties!  "Better to be safe than sorry" seems to be appropriate here, especially in light of Romans 14.

 

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

Observations on some of the songs.

1.  The first song "Christmastime."  The song says that the Angels appeared to tell us that "Christmastime is here."  How can a KJV Bible Believing Christian not balk at that?  "Christmastime" can mean many things to many people.  Besides that, and more importantly, the ANGELS DID NOT SAY THAT.  They said that CHRIST WAS BORN, and that He was the Saviour of the world.  A HUGE difference in meaning....at least to those who actually believe that words mean something...

2.  The problem with songs like "In Christ Alone" and "How deep the Father's Love for me" is not as much in the words, as in the structure of the music itself.  David Cloud has documented this in his writings on music.  If I could summarize it here, I would say that music has its own language, and it speaks to us in and of itself.  If you don't believe that, I say this with all grace and compassion: You are willfully blind and ignorant on the subject, and you need to grow up a little bit.  Marching music - like John Philip Souza - makes you want to MARCH, hence its name.  Music has a language of its own, and when that language is contrary to the language and message of the WORDS, you end up with chaos.  It is not edifying to the believer; it only produces an emotional response, and in many cases creates doubt and confusion.

3.  There are some songs, such as Andrae Crouch's song "The Blood will never lose its power" that have been sung by many good believers for decades now.  Roloff and his girls homes sang that song, and even recorded it.  I can say from personal experience that the song does not need to be "cleaned up" to sing in a church.  The original scoring of the music as found in several older Gospel Song collections is just fine.  The recording he did of his own song (see the video) has been CHANGED to suit his own personal style of music (which is wrong!).  But the song written and sung as it is in any songbook you can find is fine.   The same is true of many of the OLDER Gaither songs, and Squire Parson songs, shallow as they may be, lyrically and musically.

And that is where the dissension comes it - how do we know what is and what is not appropriate?  As things degressed over the last 50-60 years, the quality of songwriting got worse, not better.  But there were still some good songs being written through that "transition period."  Personally, I could never sing them in church or listen to them at home because of the connections those songs have to what is NOW the CCM and ecumenical movement.  If you can not see the worldly, fleshly way in which the CCM people "perform" their songs, then you are blind.  We are told to worship Jesus Christ "in spirit and in truth", not in "emotions and performances."  We have emotions, yes, but we are not to be LED by them, and we are to CONTROL them.  True worship of Jesus Christ comes from real JOY from our HEARTS, and cannot be reproduced by any emotional performance.

4.  These schools and churches that are moving in this CCM direction are putting more and more emphasis on the PERFORMANCE rather than on the WORSHIP of our Saviour.  And quite honestly, their "performances," as "professional" as they try to be, are lacking in "spirit." 

 

Finally, the operative principle is "It is better to be safe than sorry."  God never told us to push the boundaries on separation, we are instead to remain close to His side, and not wander off into the company of lost people or worldly, ecumenical Christians.  Why would I choose to sing a song by Michael W. Smith when I could instead pick one by Philip P Bliss?

[ASongOfDegrees]

Here we go again.

[John81]

Here we go again.

It's almost moot at this point. CCM is here to stay, many IFB churches are using CCM in one form or another already. Within a decade or so many CCM songs will be as entrenched in IFB churches as are our favorite hymns. Some IFB churches have been using a few Gaither songs for a very long time.

[Steve Schwenke]

It is moot at this point because so many are doing it?  Well, we don't have any numbers on this issue, and certainly there are many who are, with the encouragement of the influential leaders like Sexton and Chappel. 

But that does not mean that there are many - MANY - who are opposed to it, and refuse to follow suit.

Further, just because so many are falling into this trap does not mean we quit discussing it or debating it.  If it is wrong, then we need to rebuke it.  If they do wrong openly, publicly, and unashamedly, then it needs to be rebuked openly, publicly, and unashamedly.

 

Right is right, and we make that determination upon the counsel of the Holy Bible, not upon what everyone else is doing.

 

In Christ,

[John81]

It is moot at this point because so many are doing it?  Well, we don't have any numbers on this issue, and certainly there are many who are, with the encouragement of the influential leaders like Sexton and Chappel. 

But that does not mean that there are many - MANY - who are opposed to it, and refuse to follow suit.

Further, just because so many are falling into this trap does not mean we quit discussing it or debating it.  If it is wrong, then we need to rebuke it.  If they do wrong openly, publicly, and unashamedly, then it needs to be rebuked openly, publicly, and unashamedly.

 

Right is right, and we make that determination upon the counsel of the Holy Bible, not upon what everyone else is doing.

 

In Christ,

I didn't say one should be silent. I only pointed out that the camel is already in the tent and won't be pushed out. Considering the direction these influential larger IFB churches are going, and the "camp" they are in tagging along, this will spread faster now.

 

Even the last time I visited several IFB churches three or four of them were using music from the CCM category, though only with a piano.

 

At the same time, more IFB churches are switching to MVs, dropping dress standards, bending their separation standards and making other changes that once would not have been seen in an IFB church.

 

Just as the IFB was formed over separation issues about a century ago, it's likely some within IFB will face a similar situation in the near future of whether to remain connected with the modern IFB or to separate and stand under a new name.

 

Already some IFB churches are adding terms to their name or placing distinguishing terms under their name on their signs in order to try and clarify just what sort of IFB church they are.

[Alimantado]

What I want to know is, how did the other CCM thread manage to get locked without TGL posting in it?

 

[HappyChristian]

What I want to know is, how did the other CCM thread manage to get locked without TGL posting in it?

 

  good question