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Ccm Being Used By Temple Baptist Church Powell, Tn (Pastor Clarence Sexton)

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What is ska?  Ska is a mixture.  It combines Caribbean mento (a type of Jamaican folk music) with calypso, jazz, and R & B.  It originated in Jamaica in the '50s and spread here in the '60s.  I only know what I know about it because we had an author of a book about it come to the library - and I had to write the press release.  

 

Southern Gospel, hymns and even country and bluegrass are also often labeled as CCM.  They can be, but not really by the CCM folk themselves.  It's more other people lumping it in.  

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Robmac, I hardly think the devil would "infiltrate" our churches with people who want MORE separation.  It seems to me that our old enemy moves very subtly, softly, and often undetected, by slowly but surely moving the line of separation little by little.  Your entire argument is nonsensical.  You seem to be saying that since YOU can't make heads or tails on this issue of music, that it is therefore a "non-issue."  Only the evolutionary philosophers judge the present by the past, which you are doing.  You are saying that since they did something THEN, we can do it NOW. 

Well, Solomon built a temple for the Lord in the Old TEstament.  Should we build another one today?  No. 

The entire Christian culture as an entire unit was a far cry different from what we have today, beginning with the fact that ALL Christian denominations had only ONE BIBLE, and most Christians believed that ONE BIBLE to be the perfect word of God (I say most to allow for the lunatic fringe in the scholar's union!) 

Today, most of these CCM writers don't believe ANY Bible to be perfect, let alone the "word of God."  They go by their feelings and experience.  Many are involved in the occult.  David Cloud has documented this time and again.

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Observations:

1.  A syncopated song designed to be played and sung with syncopation sounds AWFUL when someone tries to "clean it up."  The music was written a certain way to illicit a certain response.  When you pull that structure out of the song, the song sounds and feels as though it were missing something....and it is....so WHY BOTHER in the first place???

2.  I don't understand why places like Temple Baptist and West Coast Baptist would even consider messing around with songs written by these modern CCM clowns.  We don't have enough songs of our own?  We don't have enough hymns and "spiritual songs?"  Why would the pastors of these churches allow their music team to dig into the CCM world to find "new" songs?  It makes no sense to me....and yes, I blame the pastors...and I can, since I am one.  The pastor is the one who gives account for the church, so he is in fact, "in charge."  There is no getting out of it, and especially not the excuse of "musical ignorance."

3.  I don't understand why some people take issue with us when we point out a MAJOR FLAW in a large, influential work.  Whatever Clarence Sexton and Paul Chappel have done in the past, and are currently doing now, is being completely mitigated by their refusal to make a clean separation with ungodly music.  Whether they want to admit it or not, they are making an endorsement of the entire industry.  As others have testified here, it is creeping into our larger churches across the nation.  And yet, some here would say that we should not make an issue of it???  Well, anyone familiar with the Epistles of Paul knows that the Apostle Paul was not ashamed to name names, and denounce those who had fallen away from following the Lord, even confronting Peter, and then writing about it!  (Galatians 2).  Error is error, and it must be named and refuted and renounced.

4.  The Ohio Patriot said that he was going to "stick with godly men."  I would encourage all of us to "stick with the BIBLE" and be more loyal to Christ than to men.  Men are just that - men, and we are still in our fallen, depraved, sinful shells of flesh.  Man cannot be trusted, but God can.  When somebody places ample evidence of a good man's error right out in front of us, then maybe we need to be humble enough to say, "Maybe I need to look into this a little bit closer.  Maybe this fellow is falling away from the Biblical position." 

I have my favorite Bible teachers, preachers, etc., and I can tell you without hesitating that they ALL have flaws somewhere.  Music is such an important part of our lives and it affects us on many levels, whether or not the person is aware of it.  The Devil was a musician, and loves to meddle in that arena.  So that gives us that much more impetus to be that much more CAREFUL in this area, not only personally, but also corporately as a church.  I can hardly think that the Lord would judge us too severely for being overly cautious, than overly indulgent in our liberties!  "Better to be safe than sorry" seems to be appropriate here, especially in light of Romans 14.

 

In Christ,

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Observations on some of the songs.

1.  The first song "Christmastime."  The song says that the Angels appeared to tell us that "Christmastime is here."  How can a KJV Bible Believing Christian not balk at that?  "Christmastime" can mean many things to many people.  Besides that, and more importantly, the ANGELS DID NOT SAY THAT.  They said that CHRIST WAS BORN, and that He was the Saviour of the world.  A HUGE difference in meaning....at least to those who actually believe that words mean something...

2.  The problem with songs like "In Christ Alone" and "How deep the Father's Love for me" is not as much in the words, as in the structure of the music itself.  David Cloud has documented this in his writings on music.  If I could summarize it here, I would say that music has its own language, and it speaks to us in and of itself.  If you don't believe that, I say this with all grace and compassion: You are willfully blind and ignorant on the subject, and you need to grow up a little bit.  Marching music - like John Philip Souza - makes you want to MARCH, hence its name.  Music has a language of its own, and when that language is contrary to the language and message of the WORDS, you end up with chaos.  It is not edifying to the believer; it only produces an emotional response, and in many cases creates doubt and confusion.

3.  There are some songs, such as Andrae Crouch's song "The Blood will never lose its power" that have been sung by many good believers for decades now.  Roloff and his girls homes sang that song, and even recorded it.  I can say from personal experience that the song does not need to be "cleaned up" to sing in a church.  The original scoring of the music as found in several older Gospel Song collections is just fine.  The recording he did of his own song (see the video) has been CHANGED to suit his own personal style of music (which is wrong!).  But the song written and sung as it is in any songbook you can find is fine.   The same is true of many of the OLDER Gaither songs, and Squire Parson songs, shallow as they may be, lyrically and musically.

And that is where the dissension comes it - how do we know what is and what is not appropriate?  As things degressed over the last 50-60 years, the quality of songwriting got worse, not better.  But there were still some good songs being written through that "transition period."  Personally, I could never sing them in church or listen to them at home because of the connections those songs have to what is NOW the CCM and ecumenical movement.  If you can not see the worldly, fleshly way in which the CCM people "perform" their songs, then you are blind.  We are told to worship Jesus Christ "in spirit and in truth", not in "emotions and performances."  We have emotions, yes, but we are not to be LED by them, and we are to CONTROL them.  True worship of Jesus Christ comes from real JOY from our HEARTS, and cannot be reproduced by any emotional performance.

4.  These schools and churches that are moving in this CCM direction are putting more and more emphasis on the PERFORMANCE rather than on the WORSHIP of our Saviour.  And quite honestly, their "performances," as "professional" as they try to be, are lacking in "spirit." 

 

Finally, the operative principle is "It is better to be safe than sorry."  God never told us to push the boundaries on separation, we are instead to remain close to His side, and not wander off into the company of lost people or worldly, ecumenical Christians.  Why would I choose to sing a song by Michael W. Smith when I could instead pick one by Philip P Bliss?

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Here we go again.

It's almost moot at this point. CCM is here to stay, many IFB churches are using CCM in one form or another already. Within a decade or so many CCM songs will be as entrenched in IFB churches as are our favorite hymns. Some IFB churches have been using a few Gaither songs for a very long time.

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It is moot at this point because so many are doing it?  Well, we don't have any numbers on this issue, and certainly there are many who are, with the encouragement of the influential leaders like Sexton and Chappel. 

But that does not mean that there are many - MANY - who are opposed to it, and refuse to follow suit.

Further, just because so many are falling into this trap does not mean we quit discussing it or debating it.  If it is wrong, then we need to rebuke it.  If they do wrong openly, publicly, and unashamedly, then it needs to be rebuked openly, publicly, and unashamedly.

 

Right is right, and we make that determination upon the counsel of the Holy Bible, not upon what everyone else is doing.

 

In Christ,

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It is moot at this point because so many are doing it?  Well, we don't have any numbers on this issue, and certainly there are many who are, with the encouragement of the influential leaders like Sexton and Chappel. 

But that does not mean that there are many - MANY - who are opposed to it, and refuse to follow suit.

Further, just because so many are falling into this trap does not mean we quit discussing it or debating it.  If it is wrong, then we need to rebuke it.  If they do wrong openly, publicly, and unashamedly, then it needs to be rebuked openly, publicly, and unashamedly.

 

Right is right, and we make that determination upon the counsel of the Holy Bible, not upon what everyone else is doing.

 

In Christ,

I didn't say one should be silent. I only pointed out that the camel is already in the tent and won't be pushed out. Considering the direction these influential larger IFB churches are going, and the "camp" they are in tagging along, this will spread faster now.

 

Even the last time I visited several IFB churches three or four of them were using music from the CCM category, though only with a piano.

 

At the same time, more IFB churches are switching to MVs, dropping dress standards, bending their separation standards and making other changes that once would not have been seen in an IFB church.

 

Just as the IFB was formed over separation issues about a century ago, it's likely some within IFB will face a similar situation in the near future of whether to remain connected with the modern IFB or to separate and stand under a new name.

 

Already some IFB churches are adding terms to their name or placing distinguishing terms under their name on their signs in order to try and clarify just what sort of IFB church they are.

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One issue that hasn't much been touched on, surprisingly, is the idea that early hymn writers used 'bar music', or 'bar tunes', for their hymns. Thought I would address it here. This is from another site, as I don't have time to do it myself:

 

 

It is often asserted that contemporary music in worship is fine because Luther used "bar" tunes for his hymns. Though this is often stated with great regularity, the fact is that it is 100% false and we should not continue to perpetrate a known falsehood. Let's face it, if the 9th commandment (thou shalt not bear false witness) means anything, it has to cover stuff like this. If Christians would bother to do a little bit of research on the internet, they would find that they could avoid many of the things that make them look quite silly to others.

So for the record here is some research on this whole issue of Luther and "bar" tunes:

 

"The idea that Luther adapted his tune from a drinking song is probably from a misunderstanding of the tune in "bar form." It is easy to see here that "bar" is a technical term, because it is precisely the same word in German. For example, in Liederkunde, 2. Teil, edited by Joachim Stalmann (Goettingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1990), we find the statement "Luther baut einen neunzeiligen Bar" ["Luther builds a bar of nine lines"] (p. 61).

Despite the analyses of musicologists, one could still claim that Martin Luther "knew a good tune when he heard it," and adapted it for his own purposes. To think that Luther adapted a drinking song for "A Mighty Fortress," however, goes completely against the practice of the Reformer. This is amply stated by Richard C. Resch, "Music: Gift of God or Tool of the Devil," Logia 3 (Eastertide/April 1994) no. 2: 36, where he makes reference to Markus Jenny, Luthers geistliche Lieder und Kirchengesaenge (Koeln: Boehlau Verlag, 1985):"A Mighty Fortress" (by Martin Luther) has the "bar form" A A B A'. One can diagram it thus:

A - He helps us free from ev'ry need That hath us now o'ertaken.

B - The old evil Foe Now means deadly woe; Deep guile and great might Are his dread arms in fight;

A - On earth is n
ot
his equal.

Willi Apel in Harvard Dictionary of Music, 2nd ed., rev. and enl. (Cambridge, Mass.: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1969) says the following on p. 80-81 about "Bar form." Of particular importance is the connection of the form with the Meistersingers, as seen also in the first quotation from Carl Schalk: "The name is derived from the medieval German term Bar, a poem consisting of three or more Gesaetze (i.e., stanzas), each of which is divided into two Stollen (section a) and an Absegang (section B). ... [The Bar form] found its way into the repertory of the troubadours ... and ultimately into that of the minnesingers and Meistersinger, who called it Bar and used it for nearly all their lyrical songs. It is equally common in the German ... Lutheran chorales and the various compositions based on them (organ chorales, chorale cantatas, etc.). ... Of particular importance is the type of Bar in which the Stollen recurs complete at the end of the Abgesang, thus leading to the form a a b a. An appropriate designation for this is rounded Bar form. Several hymn melodies show this form."

 

 "Martin Luther is one of the most misunderstood church fathers with respect to the use of music in the church. Claims that he used tavern tunes for his hymns are used in defense of a music practice that freely accepts worldly associations. Such conclusions bear no resemblance to Luther's writings on the subjects of worship and music. In fact, Luther's actions teach us quite a different lesson. In his search for the right tune for his text "Vom Himmel hoch, da komm' ich her" ["From Heaven Above to Earth I Come"] , Luther learned about the power of worldly associations. According to the Luther scholar Markus Jenny, Luther's first wedding of this text with a tune was "a classic example of the failure of a contrafacta." He set it to a secular dance song that begins, "I step eagerly to this dance." The dance and tune were closely associated with a Christmas wreath ceremony that was often held in taverns. Luther found the secular associations to be so strong that he eventually wrote a fresh tune that was free of worldly associations. He then indicated on the manuscript that this new melody was to be used in the Sunday service and with children. Luther's modification of this beloved hymn is indication of his sensitivity to the harmful power of worldly associations in the worship practice of the church." -- Rev. Richard Lammert, Public Services Librarian Concordia Theological Seminary, Fort Wayne, IN "

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Great article, thanks Mike.

The music liberals hurl the same (false) accusations about Fanny Crosby and Newton's song "Amazing Grace."

"By their fruits ye shall know them..."

 

In Christ,

Brother Steve, the saying "by their fruits ye shall know them"... comes from Matthew chapter 7 when Christ talks about False Prophets.  On the other hand, "Fruits of the Spirit, in the Book of Galations, chapter 5, talks about Christian fruit."  :)  

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Apologies in advance if this is too far off topic, but it seemed an observation worth addressing on this thread.

 

I've always found it interesting how so many people who know so much about so many things get so defensive when someone challenges one thing - their music. Truthfully, the most defensive individuals in the situations I've had, seen, read about, or heard of are those who are in some position of spiritual authority - as though the threat against their music is a personal attack on them (which, in a way it actually is when you understand the nature of music).

 

A lot of people think that music is an expression (albeit a very powerful expression) of emotion. While that is definitely true, it is not the core of what music is. Music is the product of the heart. What and who a person is is reflected - sometimes very specifically - in their music. To say that music (musical style/expression) is neutral (which is an underlying theme in a lot of arguments I've seen indefense of CCM - or any corrupted music style) is to deny the influence of the inner man on the production of music, and after twelve years of studying that very thing I just can't give credence to that idea.

 

In fact, if music is truly neutral, it would have been abandoned a long time ago. It would be so useless that humans would never need it. To say that music is neutral is to say that it has no power. Furthermore, I would submit that no one truly believes in the neutrality of music. I've found that the "neutrality" argument is often used as a shield to protect that person's music from further scrutiny.

 

Also, simply quoting scripture or naming God in your music - or in anything else you do - doesn't mean that God is your focus: Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" God can be named and then completely left out - which I'm sure you all realize.

 

The words of a song are important of course, but their power is minimal when compared to the music of the song. Words simply tell us what is said, but the music, by its nature, holds the power to tell us how those words are said and it can even communicate the thoughts and heart of the author(s) very plainly. A man's theology can be seen clearly not only in the words he pens, but in the music his heart produces.: Acts 13:22b, "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will."

I Samuel 16:18 & 23, "Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the Lord is with him." "And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him." And though David's skill was important (if he didn't have any skill he wouldn't have been able to play for Saul in the first place), it was not his skill that refreshed the King - it was the music he produced, music that was a product of his heart being in tune with God's.

 

"Musical style" - which I firmly believe is just a way of saying "my heart's tone of voice" - showcases the soul in a way that would stun many of today's worship leaders, performers, and laymen. When a man (or woman) sings, they open their heart and give you a detailed look at what's inside.

 

A lot of people think that another person's heart is inaccessible (meaning that they say they can't see the other person's heart at all). I would respectfully disagree with that conclusion. While it is true that no man can ever read another's heart in the way that God can, every time we interact with someone, we see a piece of their heart (their inner man) - in that person's actions, attitude, speech, spirit, and even small things like word choice and tone of voice.

 

All that to say: Is music a science? Yes. And no. It requires skill to create and execute, but it also requires a spiritual component that can never be taught by another human being.

 

Is music an art? Yes. And no. It requires creativity and a sense of asthetics, but it also requires a sense of spiritual beauty and purity that cannot be instilled in any heart by a human teacher.

 

Music - true music that reflects the heart of God Himself is not simply an exercise in techincal skill or compositional prowess; it is the creature's attempt to mimic his Creator in some small way - to communicate in a manner completely unquantifiable aside from the Holy Spirit.

 

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Also, simply quoting scripture or naming God in your music - or in anything else you do - doesn't mean that God is your focus: Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" God can be named and then completely left out - which I'm sure you all realize.

 

That verse has nothing to do with music and nothing to do with what your trying to convey

 

 

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One issue that hasn't much been touched on, surprisingly, is the idea that early hymn writers used 'bar music', or 'bar tunes', for their hymns. Thought I would address it here. This is from another site, as I don't have time to do it myself:

 

 

It is often asserted that contemporary music in worship is fine because Luther used "bar" tunes for his hymns. Though this is often stated with great regularity, the fact is that it is 100% false and we should not continue to perpetrate a known falsehood. Let's face it, if the 9th commandment (thou shalt not bear false witness) means anything, it has to cover stuff like this. If Christians would bother to do a little bit of research on the internet, they would find that they could avoid many of the things that make them look quite silly to others.

So for the record here is some research on this whole issue of Luther and "bar" tunes:

 

"The idea that Luther adapted his tune from a drinking song is probably from a misunderstanding of the tune in "bar form." It is easy to see here that "bar" is a technical term, because it is precisely the same word in German. For example, in Liederkunde, 2. Teil, edited by Joachim Stalmann (Goettingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1990), we find the statement "Luther baut einen neunzeiligen Bar" ["Luther builds a bar of nine lines"] (p. 61).

Despite the analyses of musicologists, one could still claim that Martin Luther "knew a good tune when he heard it," and adapted it for his own purposes. To think that Luther adapted a drinking song for "A Mighty Fortress," however, goes completely against the practice of the Reformer. This is amply stated by Richard C. Resch, "Music: Gift of God or Tool of the Devil," Logia 3 (Eastertide/April 1994) no. 2: 36, where he makes reference to Markus Jenny, Luthers geistliche Lieder und Kirchengesaenge (Koeln: Boehlau Verlag, 1985):"A Mighty Fortress" (by Martin Luther) has the "bar form" A A B A'. One can diagram it thus:

A - He helps us free from ev'ry need That hath us now o'ertaken.

B - The old evil Foe Now means deadly woe; Deep guile and great might Are his dread arms in fight;

A - On earth is n
ot
his equal.

Willi Apel in Harvard Dictionary of Music, 2nd ed., rev. and enl. (Cambridge, Mass.: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1969) says the following on p. 80-81 about "Bar form." Of particular importance is the connection of the form with the Meistersingers, as seen also in the first quotation from Carl Schalk: "The name is derived from the medieval German term Bar, a poem consisting of three or more Gesaetze (i.e., stanzas), each of which is divided into two Stollen (section a) and an Absegang (section B). ... [The Bar form] found its way into the repertory of the troubadours ... and ultimately into that of the minnesingers and Meistersinger, who called it Bar and used it for nearly all their lyrical songs. It is equally common in the German ... Lutheran chorales and the various compositions based on them (organ chorales, chorale cantatas, etc.). ... Of particular importance is the type of Bar in which the Stollen recurs complete at the end of the Abgesang, thus leading to the form a a b a. An appropriate designation for this is rounded Bar form. Several hymn melodies show this form."

 

 "Martin Luther is one of the most misunderstood church fathers with respect to the use of music in the church. Claims that he used tavern tunes for his hymns are used in defense of a music practice that freely accepts worldly associations. Such conclusions bear no resemblance to Luther's writings on the subjects of worship and music. In fact, Luther's actions teach us quite a different lesson. In his search for the right tune for his text "Vom Himmel hoch, da komm' ich her" ["From Heaven Above to Earth I Come"] , Luther learned about the power of worldly associations. According to the Luther scholar Markus Jenny, Luther's first wedding of this text with a tune was "a classic example of the failure of a contrafacta." He set it to a secular dance song that begins, "I step eagerly to this dance." The dance and tune were closely associated with a Christmas wreath ceremony that was often held in taverns. Luther found the secular associations to be so strong that he eventually wrote a fresh tune that was free of worldly associations. He then indicated on the manuscript that this new melody was to be used in the Sunday service and with children. Luther's modification of this beloved hymn is indication of his sensitivity to the harmful power of worldly associations in the worship practice of the church." -- Rev. Richard Lammert, Public Services Librarian Concordia Theological Seminary, Fort Wayne, IN "

How would you explain worldly music, Mike, to what is Godly music? and where in the Bible can you show this?

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Sorry if I was unclear before. I wasn't referring to just music there. It was more of a general statement that included everything - even music. Jesus was pointing out that there will be many on judgment day that protest God's judgment on them with the excuse that they did much good in His name. Many "musicians" do a lot of what they would consider to be "good," but if their heart was never right with God to begin with, the end results (when eternity comes) are heart-breaking.

 

Basically the point with this portion of my previous post is that people do many things in God's name that God is not really a part of. This is a common problem in a lot of church music situations where the wrong music has crept in. Music pastors and congregation members have justified using a piece (pieces) of corrupt music because "the words are good" or even from Scripture, but in fact, God is not reflected in that music because it was prduced by a heart that was not in tune with God in the first place. Yes, they knew how to write good words, but they ignored the most important part of music - knowing God.

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Some of the newer hymns which came out in the late 1800s into the early 1900s were denounced as being too worldly, too emotional, not fit for church and outright improper; yet those hymns are today in our hymnals and the "conservatives" and "fundamentalists" accept and sing them even though their predecessors denounced them.

 

Similar arguments occurred way back when hymns first began being used in some churches. The "old guard" denounced them as being worldly and declared only biblical psalms were proper for Christians. We know how that fight went also.

 

CCM has only been around for about a half-century and already most churches which once opposed this now embrace such. Even among IFBs CCM is now being used in many churches; and listened to by many IFBs outside of church.

 

As Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

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Some of the newer hymns which came out in the late 1800s into the early 1900s were denounced as being too worldly, too emotional, not fit for church and outright improper; yet those hymns are today in our hymnals and the "conservatives" and "fundamentalists" accept and sing them even though their predecessors denounced them.

 

Similar arguments occurred way back when hymns first began being used in some churches. The "old guard" denounced them as being worldly and declared only biblical psalms were proper for Christians. We know how that fight went also.

 

CCM has only been around for about a half-century and already most churches which once opposed this now embrace such. Even among IFBs CCM is now being used in many churches; and listened to by many IFBs outside of church.

 

As Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

I remember reading somewhere that those hymns that were sung to a piano were called the music of the saloons, I have to remember where i read that

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