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brosmith

Ccm Being Used By Temple Baptist Church Powell, Tn (Pastor Clarence Sexton)

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Seems like if we want to be consistent with the other forum where everyone jumped on BlessedSongs we should allow Temple Baptist and Dr. Sexton to answer these statements......

 

Actually MANY videos were provided. With David Cloud pretty much no information was given. Big difference.

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Actually MANY videos were provided. With David Cloud pretty much no information was given. Big difference.

You can make any argument with a video.  I don't suppose anyone has attended any of these services or asked Dr. Sexton how he feels about CCM?

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You can make any argument with a video.  I don't suppose anyone has attended any of these services or asked Dr. Sexton how he feels about CCM?

 

It is his church and he's allowing it. Using your reasoning if someone posted 3 videos of a Catholic, an emergent and a homosexual preaching at his church we couldn't sound an alarm for that. As long as the information for a person to make a reasonable judgement is being presented it isn't gossip. It's pretty clear what is going on in his church.

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It is pretty clear what is going on.

The real question is "Is his use of this music wrong?"

Personally I see no point in posting more of these videos. A few to show the point, but more and more simply exposed any who care to click on them to music which you are condemning.
I would suggest rather post their version and post the name of the writer/artist, but not the associated video. The first two or three display the.point.

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Well, I have been to the church.  Why are some so eager to pass judgment.  Why are some always so eager to attack good men who are doing "great" work for God?  A great church, day care, school,  great soul winning ministry, a great college.  I guess we will have the opportunity to answer for that someday.

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It is his church and he's allowing it. Using your reasoning if someone posted 3 videos of a Catholic, an emergent and a homosexual preaching at his church we couldn't sound an alarm for that. As long as the information for a person to make a reasonable judgement is being presented it isn't gossip. It's pretty clear what is going on in his church.

This is not even a rational, equivalent comparison, sorry Brother I will not attack a man, church or school that does more for God than most of us.

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One of the problems we have in IFB is our tendency to attack and accuse, or give almost blind support, rather than to discuss.

 

We quickly declare one person/church being wicked for something while ignoring the same thing in another or even defending them.

 

This is unproductive and not biblical conduct.

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Well, I have been to the church.  Why are some so eager to pass judgment.  Why are some always so eager to attack good men who are doing "great" work for God?  A great church, day care, school,  great soul winning ministry, a great college.  I guess we will have the opportunity to answer for that someday.

 

A "great" church doesn't compromise. I know of to many schools and churches going to CCM. This is just another example.

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This is not even a rational, equivalent comparison, sorry Brother I will not attack a man, church or school that does more for God than most of us.

 

I find it to be a good comparison. Don't think you can just say it isn't and that makes it so. The videos clearly show the compromise just as videos of false teachers would show the compromise.

 

That is your choice to not expose compromise. That isn't Biblical.

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It is pretty clear what is going on.

The real question is "Is his use of this music wrong?"

Personally I see no point in posting more of these videos. A few to show the point, but more and more simply exposed any who care to click on them to music which you are condemning.
I would suggest rather post their version and post the name of the writer/artist, but not the associated video. The first two or three display the.point.

 

We have several things to consider when judging music:

 

#1 - Who does it identify me with?

#2 - Do the song writers, musicians, and singers portray godliness?

#3 - Is this a psalm, a hymn, or a spiritual song?

#4 - Would it be good to listen to the song as it is in its original form?

 

When it comes to these videos, the answers to the questions is:

 

#1 - They identify the church with CCM (because that's what these songs are)

#2 - The song writers, musicians, and singers are not portraying godliness (godliness requires a separation from evil)

#3 - They are neither psalms, hymns, nor spiritual songs because they are a product of carnality.

#4 - No, it is not good to listen to these songs in their original form (but if your going to listen to a revised rendition of it then why not listen to the real thing?)

 

The reason why I posted so many is to offer proof that this was not a quirk or a once in a while thing. With Temple Baptist Church, CCM is used quite frequently and has been used for many years. When our son went to Crown College (2005-2006) we found that much of the music that was made available on Temple Baptist Church's website was either CCM or charismatic. And by the way, there are a lot of youtube videos showing charismatic music being used by Temple Baptist Church. I could start a thread posting them as well.

 

As a side note: I believe that our independent fundament Baptist churches are in danger of losing the fight against carnality and many have already lost the fight because of adopting CCM in their services. We were shocked to find Harvest Baptist Church in Ft Dodge, Iowa (Pastor Marvin Smith) had become a contemporary church. Our son and his wife are members there and we were passing through about a month ago. We visited the church at their midweek service. Here are some things that we observed during the service: in the pews there is a booklet of 60 contemporary worship choruses and they sang many of those contemporary worship choruses that night, there was a round of applause after the offertory (the offertory was a hymn done in a swing/waltz style), a soloist sang "Lord I Believe In You" written by Crystal Lewis as a special with lots of amens and raising of hands and then there was a round of applause after the special (look up the video of Crystal Lewis singing this song if you want to), and lastly the invitational hymn was done in swing/waltz style. During the message, Pastor Smith mentioned how that he listens to worship music and then he demonstrated how he grooves to the music (he jokingly stated that he knew it was carnal). The crazy part about this whole thing is that Pastor Marvin Smith travels around the country preaching in other churches and each year Harvest Baptist Church holds a missions conference as well as a spiritual warfare conference. And he has written at least two books on spiritual warfare. We walked away from the service grieved in our spirits.

Edited by brosmith

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I have no problem with your posting them, or with your assessment.

My point was that after posting the first.... Say three, you could have.posted the video from the church and not promoted the.original artists by giving their video also.
Their name.would be enough to point out the association.

Other than that......... Go for it.

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One of the problems we have in IFB is our tendency to attack and accuse, or give almost blind support, rather than to discuss.

 

We quickly declare one person/church being wicked for something while ignoring the same thing in another or even defending them.

 

This is unproductive and not biblical conduct.

Yes, John but it seems like many on this website only are one sided.  What they are now doing to Temple Baptist is akin to what David Cloud would do.  

 

Not a single person attacking this church has first hand knowledge of Temple Baptist or Clarence Sexton.  I prefer to stand with good men.  

 

I have made it clear in the past what I think of CCM music, and it has become common for people to take a video and make claims about a church.  Should we allow this issue to cancel what Clarence Sexton, Temple Baptist, and Crown College has done.  If that is your choice so be it, but I will stand with God's men.  

 

At the rate some are attacking other people for issues they disagree with, when they are finished it will be a few pious people standing with David Cloud.   

Edited by The Ohio Patriot

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Yes, John but it seems like many on this website only are one sided.  What they are now doing to Temple Baptist is akin to what David Cloud would do.  

 

Not a single person attacking this church has first hand knowledge of Temple Baptist or Clarence Sexton.  I prefer to stand with good men.  

 

I have made it clear in the past what I think of CCM music, and it has become common for people to take a video and make claims about a church.  Should we allow this issue to cancel what Clarence Sexton, Temple Baptist, and Crown College has done.  If that is your choice so be it, but I will stand with God's men.  

 

At the rate some are attacking other people for issues they disagree with, when they are finished it will be a few pious people standing with David Cloud.   

I agree. We have a bad habit of shooting our own. We often publically lash out at a pastor/church and basically push them into a corner, which rarely ever results in something good. We point at one issue yet rather than target just that, we choose full auto and begin attacking character, making assumptions, and sometimes even questioning salvation.

 

We need better communication among ourselves. We need to be able to address an issue without making personal attacks. If we feel the need to separate ourselves from a particular pastor/church we need to do so respectfully as we declare the actual reason, and leave it at that, no personal attacks or attempts to stretch one problem area into meaning the whole is corrupt. In most cases it would be best to move on from there rather than belaboring the matter over and over again...until the next thing comes along.

 

It would be helpful if we also took into consideration how much most of us don't like the idea of outsiders telling our Independent pastor/church how bad they are, especially when not put forth in a good manner. Such assaults, especially public ones, tend to raise folks defenses, not open a door for discussion or serious consideration of a matter.

 

Along these lines we might also want to ask where is the perfect church and who is the perfect pastor? What about those Christians we admire from the past, were they perfect? If they were alive today would we still be quoting them or might we be thinking we needed to separate from them?

 

No doubt there are issues that sometimes need to be addressed, but they need to be addressed in the right manner, with the right attitude and motive, and in a way that one hopes may lead to benefit, understanding or restoration to the glory of God.

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brosmith,

 

I couldn't have put it any better. What you mention is in my part of the country. Schools and churches I know personally are being influenced by CCM left and right. A school well known in IFB circles up here called Northland took Baptist out of their name and are now really big into CCM. They also now are teaming up with charismatic churches. There are also churches here in Minnesota and Wisconsin that are no longer practicing separation as they once have and now support CCM. I am blessed to be in a church that still takes a stand against CCM and holds to the King James Bible. My fear though is it is going to be harder and harder to find churches like these. That is why it is important we take stand. Even if is against churches and schools that were once sound and have done a lot of good in the past. This whole issue grieves my heart.

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If you want to label people that agree with Cloud as a Pharisee then you better make sure God is OK with that. Saying you can't give a warning about a person because you have not talked to them is the same as saying you can't warn people about Obama because you never talked to him first. See why your argument doesn't make any sense? By the way you are taking the beam passage out of context. In context it would be an alcoholic telling others not to drink while at the same time he still is drinking. By the way, it looks like you are casting a few stones yourself in this thread.

 

I removed this statement prior to when you finally posted, however, I am not saying that I don't agree with what I wrote, just that this is time wasted and I don't wish to pursue worthless discussion any longer.  

Edited by The Ohio Patriot

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Much of the issue is a matter of should we be "warning" as is most often being done, or should we be putting more effort into going directly to the source, talking the matter over, and then determining whether there is no problem, something that we can work with to make better, or it's time to make a simple, clear statement of separation which addresses the issue without personal attack and then let folks set their course from there.

 

Continually sounding alarms without doing something to correct the problem most often makes the problem worse, not better or creates further problems, or on occasion it creates a problem where none was. Would we want our national defense to see an enemy threat coming upon us, to sound an alarm and do nothing else or would we want them to not only sound the alarm but to take appropriate actions to remedy the threat?

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#2 - Do the song writers, musicians, and singers portray godliness?

 

 

:goodpost: Yes, this especially. I think this, to me, is even more important than what sort of beat or background music the song has. Do the musicians' lives exemplify holiness? Are the songs doctrinally sound? If I heard the song on a secular radio station, would I be able to readily identify it as having a Christian theme? Those are the biggest issues surrounding CCM. Even the "darlings" of early CCM, Sandi Patty and Amy Grant, were adulteresses. If you're at the magazine section of a large chain book store, pick up a copy of "Relevant Magazine" some day and see how many CCM artists are interviewed and show support for sodomite "marriage", abortion, the emergent church, and President Obama. 

 

Then you have what are known as "crossover" artists. Artists like Michael W. Smith, Flyleaf, P.O.D., Amy Grant, and Jars of Clay. These are artists who start out in CCM, but quickly realize they can make a lot more money in the secular music industry. So, they sell out, make some albums that aren't "overtly" Christian, and then in interviews with heathen magazines like "Rolling Stone" will claim they're trying to "subliminally share Jesus with listeners". And let's not forget good 'ol Kay Perry. Katy Perry was a squeaky clean CCM sensation in her late-teens. Now she dresses immodestly, has a quickie marriage and divorce under her belt, lives with music industry's biggest womanizer, John Mayer, and sings songs with raunchy lyrics. The worst is that parents will allow their children to buy her CDs, because their kids will say, "but Mom, Dad...she is a Christian singer. Her songs are really about Jesus". Sure. I think we all know "I Kissed a Girl" isn't about her relationship with Jesus. 

 

Many CCM artists are totally immersed in the world. They look, dress, speak, and play music that is entirely of the world. Many CCM songs you wouldn't know were about our Savior. They sound more like a love song for a boyfriend or girlfriend. Where in the Bible does it say we're supposed to make music about how we love holding Jesus' hand or how we're "free to be me" because of God's grace? Nowhere. 

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The one thing that gets me with Christians using the term CCM, is that CCM is a broad term. I personally like southern gospel versus Christian "rock, pop, etc." I will say that there is a huge difference between southern gospel and other Christian music. I have been to my fair share of southern gospel concerts, and other Christian concerts. The last southern gospel was at First Baptist Atlanta with 4 or 5 groups and the last other Christian concert was last night. The southern gospel groups was all about ministry where the concert last night seemed more of entertainment. I felt like I was at a secular concert instead of a Christian concert. I have never had that feeling with southern gospel concerts.

 

So if a church use southern gospel music that they are going the way of the world and are CCM? if that is the case then how come some of these churches are being used greatly by God?

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Well it is certainly true that the definition of CCM varies according to who is making the definition......

And it is also true that often (although not always) what is acceptable is swayed by our own personal likes and dislikes.

I think there are some principles to follow regarding music, but I also think that the line of definition is not as solid as some suggest.

It is actually the same in worldly music too. I used to work with a bunch of guys who were involved in Metal music.
They had all sorts of descriptions and definitions for the various layers and levels of metal music whereas I lumped it all under one heading - Rubbish! :D

The plain fact is that there are parts of CCM that are not God honouring, but there are parts that are acceptable. And the reasons for it being one side or the other also vary from style right through to association.
But blanket statements by their nature cover all sorts of things, some of which don't really belong under that blanket.

I hope that all makes sense?

Edited by DaveW

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The one thing that gets me with Christians using the term CCM, is that CCM is a broad term. I personally like southern gospel versus Christian "rock, pop, etc." I will say that there is a huge difference between southern gospel and other Christian music. I have been to my fair share of southern gospel concerts, and other Christian concerts. The last southern gospel was at First Baptist Atlanta with 4 or 5 groups and the last other Christian concert was last night. The southern gospel groups was all about ministry where the concert last night seemed more of entertainment. I felt like I was at a secular concert instead of a Christian concert. I have never had that feeling with southern gospel concerts.

 

So if a church use southern gospel music that they are going the way of the world and are CCM? if that is the case then how come some of these churches are being used greatly by God?

Also, FWIW, it is the CCM artists/historians themselves who use the term.  It is an umbrella term which covers (in their words) Christian pop, rock, ska, swing, etc.

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Also, FWIW, it is the CCM artists/historians themselves who use the term.  It is an umbrella term which covers (in their words) Christian pop, rock, ska, swing, etc.

What is ska?

 

Southern Gospel, hymns and even country and bluegrass are also often labeled as CCM.

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