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Ccm Being Used By Temple Baptist Church Powell, Tn (Pastor Clarence Sexton)

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Not to derail your post but I once read on JesusIsSavior that this particular pose for the album cover was satanic and done deliberate.  With all MWS has said about God and Christ it would not surprise me.   :ot:

 

Why are they going soft on separation?  What's the bible say about offending those little ones on stage?   :knuppel:

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David Cloud, as most know, has been speaking about this sort of thing going on in other churches, like Lancaster Baptist, a soft separatism, where we go digging into the the trashcan of CCM looking for that morsel that 'isn't so bad'. And of course, once it is adapted and no longer soulds like CCM, then other churches hear it and like it and get a copy for their choir. And therre is a spirit with that music, just as with rock music, a spirit of compromise, that will begin t grow-slowly, yes, but surely, none the less, unless it is seen for what it is and stopped. And that church will eventually go completely contemporary. Satan is patient-it doesn't have to happen right away, but it WILL happen.

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I listened to three of these songs done at TBC (I Stand Redeemed, There is a Redeemer and Lamb of Glory) and i may be dense,

but i did not see anything unscriptural about them.  Is the problem the writers of the songs, the original singers of the songs, the words of the song?  I am just not getting it.  I only listened to the way it was done in the church.  Can someone enlighten me?

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I listened to three of these songs done at TBC (I Stand Redeemed, There is a Redeemer and Lamb of Glory) and i may be dense,

but i did not see anything unscriptural about them.  Is the problem the writers of the songs, the original singers of the songs, the words of the song?  I am just not getting it.  I only listened to the way it was done in the church.  Can someone enlighten me?

I was wondering about the I Stand Redeemed song. That sounded more like old time Gospel Quartet than anything like CCM.

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Quinkie: I think the point of the issue is that these songs were originally created as rock-style CCM. This subtle conversion to hymn type orchestration is how CCM gets the foothold and over time, they'll be jamming like any worldly "church"

Edited by wretched

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I think the point of the issue is that these songs were originally created as rock-style CCM. This subtle conversion to hymn type orchestration is how CCM gets the foothold and over time, they'll be jamming like any worldly "church"

Does I Stand Redeemed fit into that category? I'm not aware of the origins of that song.

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I was wondering about the I Stand Redeemed song. That sounded more like old time Gospel Quartet than anything like CCM.

 

Legacy Five is the writer and producer of I Stand Redeemed. They are billed as a southern gospel group (they were formed from the remnants of the Cathedral Quartet). As a side note, this information comes by searching online not by any personal interest on my part.

 

To answer your question: An old time gospel quartet wouldn't use a rock beat in their music. Legacy Five does use a rock beat. It is my opinion that they are a CCM crossover group. The song "I Stand Redeemed" is a perfect of the CCM style being used by Legacy Five.

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Legacy Five is the writer and producer of I Stand Redeemed. They are billed as a southern gospel group (they were formed from the remnants of the Cathedral Quartet). As a side note, this information comes by searching online not by any personal interest on my part.

 

To answer your question: An old time gospel quartet wouldn't use a rock beat in their music. Legacy Five does use a rock beat. It is my opinion that they are a CCM crossover group. The song "I Stand Redeemed" is a perfect of the CCM style being used by Legacy Five.

Maybe I just missed it, but I didn't notice the rock beat from the video. I didn't have my speakers very loud either so maybe I couldn't hear it.

 

Thank you for the information. I've never heard of Legacy Five before now. I do know of some Southern Gospel groups of the modern sort which use heavy beats and often loud music. We were given a free DVD sample which at the time I thought was of Gospel Quartets but turned out to be of modern Southern Gospel groups, and while the singing was mostly good, most of the songs had heavy, rockin' type music with them, and in some scenes where you could see a drummer or electric guitar player, they had long, unkempt hair and they were moving and making faces as if they were in a rock band. Not a DVD we'll probably ever watch again. In fact, it will probably end up in the trash.

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Really????  My oh my, where do i draw this line in the sand?  Do I draw it here today? Nah, too contemporary.  Do I draw it in the 70's or  maybe the 50's?  How about the 1850's??  Nah, that would be too far back, old fashioned and I would ruffle too many feathers.  People do like their pianos and other musical instruments and we know most churches didn't have them back then  Next, people would expect me to draw the line on women wearing pants and we know that is old fashioned.  Hmm, ok, I know. Draw the line in good ole 1980.  We can still have our pianos and organs, that they called "compromise" 100 years ago, but I can still throw some rocks at those who use guitars and sing songs from groups that are too liberal.    

 

Yes, Satan truly is patient and it started a bit farther back then some today are willing to accept. 

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Really????  My oh my, where do i draw this line in the sand?  Do I draw it here today? Nah, too contemporary.  Do I draw it in the 70's or  maybe the 50's?  How about the 1850's??  Nah, that would be too far back, old fashioned and I would ruffle too many feathers.  People do like their pianos and other musical instruments and we know most churches didn't have them back then  Next, people would expect me to draw the line on women wearing pants and we know that is old fashioned.  Hmm, ok, I know. Draw the line in good ole 1980.  We can still have our pianos and organs, that they called "compromise" 100 years ago, but I can still throw some rocks at those who use guitars and sing songs from groups that are too liberal.    

 

Yes, Satan truly is patient and it started a bit farther back then some today are willing to accept. 

A nice bit of sarcasm, there, but I think it shows your ignorance of the subject. And please, I don't use 'ignorance' as an insult, but rather, as my belief that you just don't understand it.

 It ultimately has nothing to do with time, with a tyle that matches some particular period. Hymns have historically been written in a style that is specific to hymns, and really nothing else, though at first it began as a somewhat folk-style, but was used for the hymns and has stuck. Its a style that has ben in use for over 500 years and it is, again, specific to hymns.  Thus, not a period-piece style.

 

"Contemporary" in music, has nothing to do specifically with WHEN a song was written-there a many good, godly hymns and songs written in various times, but are not seen as contemporary. Where music becomes contemporary, is when it seeks to emulate they current popular music styles of the day. The thing you see in CCM is a continual changing of they styles to remain contemporary with secular music styles. Thus, it must always be changing and shifting, always moving. Sure, some of the older songs are still appreciated, but in much the same manner as the nostalgic 'oldies' you might hear on a secular radio station. To be contemporary, it must be current, popular and faddish, all things which Christianity is opposed to, generally-speaking. While there is nothing wrong with many things of the current day, many wonderful tools and such brought by technology, trying to always be in fashion is not one of them.

 

Christianity is specifically about an unchanging attitude, to match an unchanging God and gospel. We read an old book, which, amazingly, in telsef, was written in a style that didn't even exist anywhere in earth when it was written-the KJV is not in the writing style of 1611-rather, it took portions of styles from many periods to more precisely present the meaning of the text. It was never truly 'contemporary' either.

 

We serve an unchanging God, read an unchanging book, preach an unchanging gospel and truth. We are told to seek the old paths, where are the good ways. Why should our music be any different? Why do we want it to fit ANY particular time? Why can't I sing "A Mighty Fortess Is Our God", written in the 16th century, along with 'A Passion For Souls' written in the 20th, and have them fit perfectly together?

 

As for instruments, most are basically neutral-how we use them is what matters. I play ukulele, but I play it in a godly manner as I play hymns. So a guitar, a piano, an organ, or a trumpet, can all be played in a godly manner, or to glorify the flesh. I would draw the line at drums, though in an orchestral setting, where it is not used to maintain a beat, but to accentuate music, I believe would be fine.

 

Yes, Satan is patient, and it began in the garden.

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A nice bit of sarcasm, there, but I think it shows your ignorance of the subject. And please, I don't use 'ignorance' as an insult, but rather, as my belief that you just don't understand it.

 It ultimately has nothing to do with time, with a tyle that matches some particular period. Hymns have historically been written in a style that is specific to hymns, and really nothing else, though at first it began as a somewhat folk-style, but was used for the hymns and has stuck. Its a style that has ben in use for over 500 years and it is, again, specific to hymns.  Thus, not a period-piece style.

 

"Contemporary" in music, has nothing to do specifically with WHEN a song was written-there a many good, godly hymns and songs written in various times, but are not seen as contemporary. Where music becomes contemporary, is when it seeks to emulate they current popular music styles of the day. The thing you see in CCM is a continual changing of they styles to remain contemporary with secular music styles. Thus, it must always be changing and shifting, always moving. Sure, some of the older songs are still appreciated, but in much the same manner as the nostalgic 'oldies' you might hear on a secular radio station. To be contemporary, it must be current, popular and faddish, all things which Christianity is opposed to, generally-speaking. While there is nothing wrong with many things of the current day, many wonderful tools and such brought by technology, trying to always be in fashion is not one of them.

 

Christianity is specifically about an unchanging attitude, to match an unchanging God and gospel. We read an old book, which, amazingly, in telsef, was written in a style that didn't even exist anywhere in earth when it was written-the KJV is not in the writing style of 1611-rather, it took portions of styles from many periods to more precisely present the meaning of the text. It was never truly 'contemporary' either.

 

We serve an unchanging God, read an unchanging book, preach an unchanging gospel and truth. We are told to seek the old paths, where are the good ways. Why should our music be any different? Why do we want it to fit ANY particular time? Why can't I sing "A Mighty Fortess Is Our God", written in the 16th century, along with 'A Passion For Souls' written in the 20th, and have them fit perfectly together?

 

As for instruments, most are basically neutral-how we use them is what matters. I play ukulele, but I play it in a godly manner as I play hymns. So a guitar, a piano, an organ, or a trumpet, can all be played in a godly manner, or to glorify the flesh. I would draw the line at drums, though in an orchestral setting, where it is not used to maintain a beat, but to accentuate music, I believe would be fine.

 

Yes, Satan is patient, and it began in the garden.

I do not feel insulted because you said you believe I am ignorant on a subject.  I am appreciative when someone calls me ignorant and then explains why they believe this, as you did.  I don't particularly like it when it is a hit and run.

 

Anyway, I liked the music being sung by the church choir.  You talk of a "spirit" that goes with the music and that is the spirit of compromise.  If I only hear the music by the church choir and I feel it glorifies God and I get it for my choir, how has my attitude changed?  How have I compromised if my intentions are to Glorify God and I am ignorant as to the roots of a song or who wrote it?  If I am not looking to have it appeal to the people in order to draw them in, but rather Glorifying God, have I compromised?  Should I research the beginnings of all songs in church and the author and try to find out his/her beliefs before we sing it?  That might cause me to throw out all Fanny Crosby stuff. 

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I do not feel insulted because you said you believe I am ignorant on a subject.  I am appreciative when someone calls me ignorant and then explains why they believe this, as you did.  I don't particularly like it when it is a hit and run.

 

Anyway, I liked the music being sung by the church choir.  You talk of a "spirit" that goes with the music and that is the spirit of compromise.  If I only hear the music by the church choir and I feel it glorifies God and I get it for my choir, how has my attitude changed?  How have I compromised if my intentions are to Glorify God and I am ignorant as to the roots of a song or who wrote it?  If I am not looking to have it appeal to the people in order to draw them in, but rather Glorifying God, have I compromised?  Should I research the beginnings of all songs in church and the author and try to find out his/her beliefs before we sing it?  That might cause me to throw out all Fanny Crosby stuff. 

Therein lies the problem and the danger. You like the music-it was re-arranged to more comfortably suit the IFB atmosphere. Many people will never do so much as to investigate who wrote the music, who they are, what they believe-I agree. But the danger lies in the musicians in charge, who are knowingly digging into known CCM work to use, rather than the massive amounts of already-godly music that need no rearrangement to be suitable for use.

 

Lemme give an example.  I have a friend, a preacher, who is a very smart man. He is also a businessman, and seeks to work his business in a manner that pleases and glorifies God. In the church where he serves as an associate pastor, he ad an email ministry for Christian leadership. He wrote articles, recommended books, and the like, for resources Christian leaders and businesspeople could use.

  Now, this man had used a few book from a person, and having read them he was hapy with them and found them godly and helpful. I don't know how much he knew about this man's actual faith and beliefs.  So, when he wrote another book, this preacher quickly recommended it, having had such good response from the earlier ones. He even included a few free pages that could be downloaded for review, a teaser, if you will. So I downloaded it.  

 

  Right in the beginning, there was a quote. I don't remember the actual quote, but I DO remember who was quoted: Lao-Tzu. Heard of him? he was actually Laozi-and he was the founder of Taoism, or Tao Buddhism. First thing, a Buddhist quote. In a book recommended for Christians. Seeing a problem?

 

Fortunately, my wife, before she was saved, was heavinly into the New Age, and while I wasn't familiar with Lao-Tzu, she was, and it set off a warning with her. I contacted the preacher, and wanrned him about it. Praise God he is a humble man, he quicky rescinded the book, and gave a warning about its use. He later admitted he just hadn't researched THAT book, since the others were so good.

 

My point being, just because someone is edified by something and is ignorant of the dangers, doesn't remove the dangers-it just makes them, really, more dangerous and subtle. Most people never look into the dangers o CCM or its adaptation-instead they just slowly begin to slide into an inevitable worldliness. Danger is still danger, even if we don't recognize it. Especially today, as we are in such an information age.

 

As for Fanny Crosby, no one felt they had to alter her music to use it in church-it was good from the day it was first played and sung; the very fact they feel the need to alter it for use should set off a warning bell. Its like taking all the dirty stuff out of a porn movie, because it has an otherwise nice storyline. Why alter the junk, when there are so many other good things out there without having to alter it?

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Fanny had many bad associations and wrote secular music as well, including music used in burlesque shows. As with most music, her music has been altered to suit churches from then to now, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. The basis for some of her music, as well as many other songs in our hymnals, were from contemporary secular songs of the time and folk songs.

 

As we look back at the history of hymns we also see that for centuries the church only sang psalms and when the hymns first came on the scene many churches rejected them. That battle continued for a long while. The same is true with regards to musical instruments, from the organ and piano to the guitar and drum and other instruments.

 

Some place a higher standards upon modern song writers than they do upon past song writers, or even some who serve in the church.

 

We have no consistent standard when it comes to music. What was once battled over is now acceptable. Are we compromised because we accept what they didn't?

 

The great psalmist of Israel, David, had many issues, left a mixed legacy, yet was used of God and some of his songs are in Scripture. David used loud music, a wide variety of instruments, and danced vigorously before the Lord.

 

I expect I will actually be greatly surprised as to just what music is played in heaven, and what's not.

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John, while there are examples of hymns that used popular tunes, it was relatively rare.
The vast majority of Fanny Crosby's songs used purpose written tunes. I am hesitant to say all as I don't know that for certain, but she worked with musicians to make the tunes.

Also she was saved as an adult - did she write secular music after her salvation?
I genuinely don't know.

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