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Ccm Being Used By Temple Baptist Church Powell, Tn (Pastor Clarence Sexton)

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Yes, at one time pianos were not welcome in church because of their use in saloons. Even organs were once unwelcome.

 

The music Moody and Sankey used was denounced by the conservative churches of their time.

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Sorry if I was unclear before. I wasn't referring to just music there. It was more of a general statement that included everything - even music. Jesus was pointing out that there will be many on judgment day that protest God's judgment on them with the excuse that they did much good in His name. Many "musicians" do a lot of what they would consider to be "good," but if their heart was never right with God to begin with, the end results (when eternity comes) are heart-breaking.

 

Basically the point with this portion of my previous post is that people do many things in God's name that God is not really a part of. This is a common problem in a lot of church music situations where the wrong music has crept in. Music pastors and congregation members have justified using a piece (pieces) of corrupt music because "the words are good" or even from Scripture, but in fact, God is not reflected in that music because it was prduced by a heart that was not in tune with God in the first place. Yes, they knew how to write good words, but they ignored the most important part of music - knowing God.

thank you for clarifying

i guess my point is what is Godly music look/sound like? does it comedown to personal conviction? taste? as compared to worldly.

I know I have been somewhat of a rebel here on this board, but my questions here are sincere. Im in noway a musician and don't understand music theory.

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Some of the newer hymns which came out in the late 1800s into the early 1900s were denounced as being too worldly, too emotional, not fit for church and outright improper; yet those hymns are today in our hymnals and the "conservatives" and "fundamentalists" accept and sing them even though their predecessors denounced them.

 

Similar arguments occurred way back when hymns first began being used in some churches. The "old guard" denounced them as being worldly and declared only biblical psalms were proper for Christians. We know how that fight went also.

 

CCM has only been around for about a half-century and already most churches which once opposed this now embrace such. Even among IFBs CCM is now being used in many churches; and listened to by many IFBs outside of church.

 

As Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

good point John, so i think the question  remains, if the piano and organ were taboo a 100+ yrs ago, will believers 100 yrs   from now see CCM as Godly music? As I posted above, I am no music expert,

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good point John, so i think the question  remains, if the piano and organ were taboo a 100+ yrs ago, will believers 100 yrs   from now see CCM as Godly music? As I posted above, I am no music expert,

100 yrs from now the NIV will be the new KJV.  We'll have NIVO advocates. :flip:   Sorry.  Off topic but same principle.

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100 yrs from now the NIV will be the new KJV. We'll have NIVO advocates. :flip: Sorry. Off topic but same principle.


I think your 'principle' there is applicable today, but in the other direction. The KJV is defended because of its sound roots, whereas the NIV is from corrupted sources and ungodly translators. Sound, godly music also comes from a good source, whereas CCM comes from worldly and ungodly roots.

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I think your 'principle' there is applicable today, but in the other direction. The KJV is defended because of its sound roots, whereas the NIV is from corrupted sources and ungodly translators. Sound, godly music also comes from a good source, whereas CCM comes from worldly and ungodly roots.

Where are these ungodly roots,(you know, we are all unGodly roots)

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I think your 'principle' there is applicable today, but in the other direction. The KJV is defended because of its sound roots, whereas the NIV is from corrupted sources and ungodly translators. Sound, godly music also comes from a good source, whereas CCM comes from worldly and ungodly roots.

Weren't the writers of the KJV of Anglican roots which practiced infant baptism?  But this is another discussion as I don't want to draw away from the OP.  Sorry.  I was just making a point.

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Weren't the writers of the KJV of Anglican roots which practiced infant baptism?  But this is another discussion as I don't want to draw away from the OP.  Sorry.  I was just making a point.

All things are currupt one way or another, Is it Scriptural to chose one music genre over another?

 

Psalm 149

Praise ye the Lord.
Sing unto the Lord a new song,
and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Let Israel rejoice in him that made him:
let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Let them praise his name in the dance:
let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
For the Lord taketh pleasure in his people:
he will beautify the meek with salvation.

Let the saints be joyful in glory:
let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
and a twoedged sword in their hand;
to execute vengeance upon the heathen,
and punishments upon the people;
to bind their kings with chains,
and their nobles with fetters of iron;
to execute upon them the judgment written:
this honour have all his saints.

Praise ye the Lord.

 

 

Psalm 150

Praise ye the Lord.

Praise God in his sanctuary:
praise him in the firmament of his power.
Praise him for his mighty acts:
praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Praise him with the sound of the trumpet:
praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Praise him with the timbrel and dance:
praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Praise him upon the loud cymbals:
praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord.

Praise ye the Lord.

 

 

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Scripture doesn't give specifics on music and most of those who attempt to point to certain verses of Scripture to paint all CCM, modern hymns, Southern Gospel and other music as unbiblical are inconsistent in their application and practice.

 

All music forms could be said to be worldly, and all forms of music have been or currently are used by those in the world.

 

Our predecessors (meaning those Christians who were along the lines of what we might call conservative or fundamentalist) opposed much, in some cases all, of the music in our hymnals today. The musical instruments we use in our churches today were once solidly rejected by these as well. Any hymn used in church was once considered worldly and sinful. The piano was the instrument of the devil.

 

Some argue that Christian songs must be written by nearly perfect Christians in order to be acceptable, and thus they denounce all "modern" music yet they accept songs written by Calvinists and non-Calvinists, baptismal regenerationists, baby baptizers, those associated with false religions, those who also wrote worldly songs, and those from a host of churches rejected as not proper NT churches.

 

The debate over music should take place personally, as a family, and as a local church; not as a broad brush approach directed at all other churches and Christians.

 

As we see already, even within IFB, CCM is accepted and sung by many. Before long what's left of the current arguments over CCM will be moot and the focus will shift to what CCM is suitable for church and what isn't. We already see several IFB churches practicing the selective use of CCM songs just as all our churches practice the selective use of hymns.

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No, Scripture simply tells us to sing songs, hymns and spiritual songs; it doesn't tell us anything about musical styles, authors or a variety of other details. We read of music which was very loud, with much dancing, with many musical instruments; and we read of music which seems to have been spur of the moment and may have been sung a capella or perhaps with a tambourine.

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Much like tbe OP, I logged the downhill slide of FBC Hammond's Music. Because of incrementality, no one was outraged when our 'Spring Program' was opened with a Charismatic Song-BTC's "I Believe".
No one was asked to lead prayer in their prayer language (a practice of BT) just a reworked song was sung.

But music doesn't change by itself, it is not a cause. It is an effect, a manifestation of the cause. And my church was no exception.
Simultaneously, the Word of God was being attacked. "spirit led" was replacing sound doctrine. Man worship had been there, festering for years.

And so it is at Temple.

The "originals" are inspired hocus pocus...try to nail Dr.Sexton down on it, and you'll be better at wet fish juggling.

The cult of "leadership" is well entrenched there, as well.

I pray that no such sexual perversion, as Hyles' son, or Schaap practiced, is ever practiced there. But experience tells me that one day bad news may once again hit the IFB headlines.

I am in no way insinuating that I have heard or know of such, only that i see a pattern, that is too familiar to ignore.



Anishinaabe

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No, Scripture simply tells us to sing songs, hymns and spiritual songs; it doesn't tell us anything about musical styles, authors or a variety of other details. We read of music which was very loud, with much dancing, with many musical instruments; and we read of music which seems to have been spur of the moment and may have been sung a capella or perhaps with a tambourine.

 

 

Yes it does.  As an aside, you contradicted your first point with your last.  

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How would you explain worldly music, Mike, to what is Godly music? and where in the Bible can you show this?

My point was to explain the 'bar' form of music  for what it is, not "sung in a bar", as many assert.

 

As to your question, worldly music is music which clearly has been copied directly from music designed to intice the flesh and affet the heart in a worldly, carnal manner.

 

So many ignore the very words of the founders of the popular styles of music, the rock and pop and the like. These people, in wiriting the music and songs, in even developing specific styles, had a goal in mind: to incite rebellion in the listeners. The beatles admitted as much. 

 

I'm not going to post the entire article here, but David Cloud has an excellent article on his site that has numerous quotes from musicians, wirters, performers, etc, and what they understand music to be-and what they attempt to make it for their listeners.

 

It is here: http://www.wayoflife.org/database/characteristics_and_philosopy_of_rock.php

 

While a few are from Christian writings, the vast amjority, and even of few of those, are comments by the performers and writers, who better than any, understood what their music was, because it was they wrote it to be.

 

SO when Christians and churches seek to emulate their music styles, there is a problem and it is going to being about a carnal spirit in the hearts of the listeners.

 

Jeffery, please don't take this as an insult, but somehow it doesn't shock me that a person who drinks, smokes, approves of tattooing, apparently listens to rock and roll and sees it as positive for believers, would have difficulty understanding the concept of worldliness, as you seem to receive every aspect of it into your daily life and defend it with all your being as 'liberty'. You might want to do an indepth study in separation, something we see in scripture even from the garden of Eden.

 

BY the way, "godly" music would be holy and sanctified, while worldly music would be like all the trash you generally hear coming from the lost and bearing wicked fruit. Somehow I suspect that the music styles of "Amazing Grace" or "Bringing in the Sheaves" have ever caused someone to desire to smoke or take drugs or incited them to riot or rebellion. Music from JAzz to Blues to Rock to Country, do that to many.

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Jeffery, please don't take this as an insult, but somehow it doesn't shock me that a person who drinks, smokes, approves of tattooing, apparently listens to rock and roll and sees it as positive for believers, would have difficulty understanding the concept of worldliness, as you seem to receive every aspect of it into your daily life and defend it with all your being as 'liberty'. You might want to do an indepth study in separation, something we see in scripture even from the garden of Eden.

 

BY the way, "godly" music would be holy and sanctified, while worldly music would be like all the trash you generally hear coming from the lost and bearing wicked fruit. Somehow I suspect that the music styles of "Amazing Grace" or "Bringing in the Sheaves" have ever caused someone to desire to smoke or take drugs or incited them to riot or rebellion. Music from JAzz to Blues to Rock to Country, do that to many.

 

:goodpost:  :amen:

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Much like tbe OP, I logged the downhill slide of FBC Hammond's Music. Because of incrementality, no one was outraged when our 'Spring Program' was opened with a Charismatic Song-BTC's "I Believe".No one was asked to lead prayer in their prayer language (a practice of BT) just a reworked song was sung.But music doesn't change by itself, it is not a cause. It is an effect, a manifestation of the cause. And my church was no exception.Simultaneously, the Word of God was being attacked. "spirit led" was replacing sound doctrine. Man worship had been there, festering for years.And so it is at Temple.The "originals" are inspired hocus pocus...try to nail Dr.Sexton down on it, and you'll be better at wet fish juggling.The cult of "leadership" is well entrenched there, as well.I pray that no such sexual perversion, as Hyles' son, or Schaap practiced, is ever practiced there. But experience tells me that one day bad news may once again hit the IFB headlines.I am in no way insinuating that I have heard or know of such, only that i see a pattern, that is too familiar to ignore. Anishinaabe


Mike! Welcome

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My point was to explain the 'bar' form of music  for what it is, not "sung in a bar", as many assert.

 

As to your question, worldly music is music which clearly has been copied directly from music designed to intice the flesh and affet the heart in a worldly, carnal manner.

 

So many ignore the very words of the founders of the popular styles of music, the rock and pop and the like. These people, in wiriting the music and songs, in even developing specific styles, had a goal in mind: to incite rebellion in the listeners. The beatles admitted as much. 

 

I'm not going to post the entire article here, but David Cloud has an excellent article on his site that has numerous quotes from musicians, wirters, performers, etc, and what they understand music to be-and what they attempt to make it for their listeners.

 

It is here: http://www.wayoflife.org/database/characteristics_and_philosopy_of_rock.php

 

While a few are from Christian writings, the vast amjority, and even of few of those, are comments by the performers and writers, who better than any, understood what their music was, because it was they wrote it to be.

 

SO when Christians and churches seek to emulate their music styles, there is a problem and it is going to being about a carnal spirit in the hearts of the listeners.

 

Jeffery, please don't take this as an insult, but somehow it doesn't shock me that a person who drinks, smokes, approves of tattooing, apparently listens to rock and roll and sees it as positive for believers, would have difficulty understanding the concept of worldliness, as you seem to receive every aspect of it into your daily life and defend it with all your being as 'liberty'. You might want to do an indepth study in separation, something we see in scripture even from the garden of Eden.

 

BY the way, "godly" music would be holy and sanctified, while worldly music would be like all the trash you generally hear coming from the lost and bearing wicked fruit. Somehow I suspect that the music styles of "Amazing Grace" or "Bringing in the Sheaves" have ever caused someone to desire to smoke or take drugs or incited them to riot or rebellion. Music from JAzz to Blues to Rock to Country, do that to many.

Amen. I use to attend new evangelical Calvinistic type of churches before I became a part of the Fundamentalistic church I am a part of right now, and you can tell the difference between the lives of the people in these 2 types of churches. In my experience, those in Fundamentalistic churches are more spiritual than the other types of churches. Practicing the Biblical principles of separation plays a part.

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Amen. I use to attend new evangelical Calvinistic type of churches before I became a part of the Fundamentalistic church I am a part of right now, and you can tell the difference between the lives of the people in these 2 types of churches. In my experience, those in Fundamentalistic churches are more spiritual than the other types of churches. Practicing the Biblical principles of separation plays a part.


Can you explain the process in which separation plays a part? You see, our experiences are the same but reversed, and I saw a lot of tires people working hard to keep their satndards and not trust Christ

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Seaparation:

  biblically, it often entails separating one's self from something, even when we don't see why it would be bad not to.

 

For instance: in Eden, God told Adam not to eat from the tree in the midst of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Presumably, Adam told Eve, but when dealing with the serpent, she didn't see what the harm would be, looking at it through her own  ideals: After all, it was good for food, attractive to the eyes and desirable to make one wise-how could it be bad?  My belief has always been that the Lord chose a tree not unlike others in the garden, but it became special when it ws forbidden for them.

 

Of course, in this example, we see that clearly the Lord gave them a command, and so it was clear for them.

 

IN the Mosaic laws, of course, there was a lot of separation:

Dress, different from the nations, including a blue ribband and a fringe on the hem.

Certain meats were okay, MOST were not, including sea animals, bired and creeping things.

Could not mix seeds in your field or fabrics in your garments.

 

But why? Where these things bad for you? Were they evil, in and of themselves? Of course not, for all these things went away after Christ, (SDA's excluded).  What made them wrong was the clear command of God against them.

 

Why did God choose some things and make them 'evil'? Before the law there was nothing wrong with them, and after the law, there is nothing wrong with them, so why then? Why do that at all? Simply, in the Lords words, "To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten." (Lev 11:44)

 

Today, there is much less that we are told we CANNOT do. Yes, we still have 9 of the 10 commandments which are repeated in the NT, and certain things, like blood and things strangled and idols and fornication, but not a huge amount else specifically. Why? because we have an entire set of OT books to look at to learn, through the Spirit of God, from what we should separate ourselves.

 

Do we have liberty? Sure. Does that mean automatically all we would like to do is alright? Obviously not. All things are not expedient, all things don't edify-that means, even though all things are lawful, there are somethings we should, by experience, by discernment, by associations, by fruit, be able to look at and discern that it is not edifying.

 

Hence, we can see in rock music a solid history of rebellion, of violence, of drug and alcohol use associated with the MUSIC. As such, it shouldn't be too hard to see that this music has borne much evil fruit, by design. long before it was introduced into the churches and American Christianity.  and honestly, it was introduced through the Jesus People movement, which was made up of a  lot of unsaved people bringing their music in for use by the church. People whose testimony was usually meeting Jesus while high on LSD.

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