Question...what happened to Adam's sin?

[Brother Rick]

Like I said, I think there's a good argument for saying some folks were saved in the Old Testament by having faith in God. Clearly, Abraham had righteousness imputed to him because of his faith. But in that passage the faith he has in God has nothing to do with a future Messiah, it has to do with believing God's promise that God would make of him a great nation as the stars of the sky and sand of the sea. Hebrews 11, the hall of faith, is filled with heroes that did amazing things for the Lord by faith - but no where does it say they had faith in a future Messiah for the forgiveness of their sins.

I don't see any exhortation for people in the Old Testament to lead others to believe by faith in a future Messiah for the atonement of their sins. It's all over the New Testament though. I see plenty of times in Leviticus where it says their sins will be forgiven and atoned for if they do a sacrifice, and I'd be happy to dig up those verses if anyone really wants me to. I see no where in the Old Testament examples like Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, the Phillipan (sp?) jailor, etc. I see no examples of preachers preaching you must have faith in the Messiah as we see with Peter, Paul, Stephen, and others in the book of Acts. The body of Christ didn't start until the New Testament, and as already explained they didn't even go to the same place we go to when we die. Sorry to belabor the point, but if the twelve apostles didn't get it after three years of being with Christ, how could people a thousand years before Christ get it?

I appreciate that so far no one's called me a heretic here, thanks. Once again, I reiterate, I don't believe anyone goes to Heaven without the blood of Christ, but going to Abraham's Bosom is a whole other ball of wax.

I believe there's a good argument for having faith in God as a means of salvation in the Old Testament, I think that there's a better argument for having obedience to God as the means of salvation in every dispensation, and that it sometimes requires nothing but faith and in other times it involves having faith and keeping the sacrifices. But I see no evidence that everyone in every dispensation is saved the same exact way.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[heartstrings]

Like I said, I think there's a good argument for saying some folks were saved in the Old Testament by having faith in God. Clearly, Abraham had righteousness imputed to him because of his faith. But in that passage the faith he has in God has nothing to do with a future Messiah, it has to do with believing God's promise that God would make of him a great nation as the stars of the sky and sand of the sea. Hebrews 11, the hall of faith, is filled with heroes that did amazing things for the Lord by faith - but no where does it say they had faith in a future Messiah for the forgiveness of their sins.

I don't see any exhortation for people in the Old Testament to lead others to believe by faith in a future Messiah for the atonement of their sins. It's all over the New Testament though. I see plenty of times in Leviticus where it says their sins will be forgiven and atoned for if they do a sacrifice, and I'd be happy to dig up those verses if anyone really wants me to. I see no where in the Old Testament examples like Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, the Phillipan (sp?) jailor, etc. I see no examples of preachers preaching you must have faith in the Messiah as we see with Peter, Paul, Stephen, and others in the book of Acts. The body of Christ didn't start until the New Testament, and as already explained they didn't even go to the same place we go to when we die. Sorry to belabor the point, but if the twelve apostles didn't get it after three years of being with Christ, how could people a thousand years before Christ get it?

I appreciate that so far no one's called me a heretic here, thanks. Once again, I reiterate, I don't believe anyone goes to Heaven without the blood of Christ, but going to Abraham's Bosom is a whole other ball of wax.

I believe there's a good argument for having faith in God as a means of salvation in the Old Testament, I think that there's a better argument for having obedience to God as the means of salvation in every dispensation, and that it sometimes requires nothing but faith and in other times it involves having faith and keeping the sacrifices. But I see no evidence that everyone in every dispensation is saved the same exact way.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,.............

On May 11, 1986, I believed in my heart and called upon the name which is above every name...........
The Word, the Light, the Way, the Truth, and the Life who was in the beginning........filled my soul and I haven't been the same since.
He was ALREADY slain from the foundation of the world, the Bible says..... and even those men whose names are mentioned in Geneis 5 and 6 were "sons of God " becaue they had believed and called on that name as well.. Jesus was there...in the beginning...and He was available for them too. He just hadn't died physically at the "fullness of time". Edited March 11, 2011 by heartstrings

[Brother Rick]

I appreciate the effort, brother, but that still doesn't answer my concerns and questions from the previous posts.

[Invicta]

I do believe it's about time to steep my tea. I'm rather enjoying this thread.

I have not heard of steeping tea. Here in the South of England, we brew tea, but in the North, they mash it.

[John81]

I have not heard of steeping tea. Here in the South of England, we brew tea, but in the North, they mash it.

I do all three! It just depends upon my mood which term I use at the moment. :coffee2:

[Salyan]

Interesting thought, re the preaching in Abraham's Bosom thing. Question, though...

Since "it is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment," wouldn't it cause some theological difficulty for souls to be saved by believing in Christ's sacrifice after they were already dead?
And along that thought, weren't the souls in Abraham's Bosom/Hades already separated according to their eternal destiny? Imploying that their destiny was already set?
Christ may have preached to those souls, but it seems that their decision (to believe or not) was already set...

:huh:

[Guest]

I appreciate that so far no one's called me a heretic here, thanks. Once again, I reiterate, I don't believe anyone goes to Heaven without the blood of Christ, but going to Abraham's Bosom is a whole other ball of wax.

I don't think you're a hair-of-a-tick either.

[John81]

Interesting thought, re the preaching in Abraham's Bosom thing. Question, though...

Since "it is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment," wouldn't it cause some theological difficulty for souls to be saved by believing in Christ's sacrifice after they were already dead?
And along that thought, weren't the souls in Abraham's Bosom/Hades already separated according to their eternal destiny? Imploying that their destiny was already set?
Christ may have preached to those souls, but it seems that their decision (to believe or not) was already set...

Those in Abraham's Bosom were already saved, which is why they were there. Christ likely preached the good news of His coming, not a salvation message.

[Seth Doty]

Like I said, I think there's a good argument for saying some folks were saved in the Old Testament by having faith in God. Clearly, Abraham had righteousness imputed to him because of his faith. But in that passage the faith he has in God has nothing to do with a future Messiah, it has to do with believing God's promise that God would make of him a great nation as the stars of the sky and sand of the sea. Hebrews 11, the hall of faith, is filled with heroes that did amazing things for the Lord by faith - but no where does it say they had faith in a future Messiah for the forgiveness of their sins.

I don't see any exhortation for people in the Old Testament to lead others to believe by faith in a future Messiah for the atonement of their sins. It's all over the New Testament though. I see plenty of times in Leviticus where it says their sins will be forgiven and atoned for if they do a sacrifice, and I'd be happy to dig up those verses if anyone really wants me to. I see no where in the Old Testament examples like Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, the Phillipan (sp?) jailor, etc. I see no examples of preachers preaching you must have faith in the Messiah as we see with Peter, Paul, Stephen, and others in the book of Acts. The body of Christ didn't start until the New Testament, and as already explained they didn't even go to the same place we go to when we die. Sorry to belabor the point, but if the twelve apostles didn't get it after three years of being with Christ, how could people a thousand years before Christ get it?

I appreciate that so far no one's called me a heretic here, thanks. Once again, I reiterate, I don't believe anyone goes to Heaven without the blood of Christ, but going to Abraham's Bosom is a whole other ball of wax.

I believe there's a good argument for having faith in God as a means of salvation in the Old Testament, I think that there's a better argument for having obedience to God as the means of salvation in every dispensation, and that it sometimes requires nothing but faith and in other times it involves having faith and keeping the sacrifices. But I see no evidence that everyone in every dispensation is saved the same exact way.

One point for you to consider is what Christ said to Nicodemus when he was describing the new birth. Christ said this: "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?". The obvious implication being that as a "master of Israel" he should have already a decent understanding of what Christ was telling him and it was to his shame that he didn't. Another thing to consider was what Samuel said to Saul: "Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

Then there are these passages in paslms, the first is prophetic but it would still be understood in the OT, while the second is not prophetic and reflects Davids understanding of the purpose of sacrifice:

"Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

"Psalm 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering."

In the OT the sacrifices in the law that were done in faith were accepted by God, breaking certain portions of the law in faith or not offering sacrifices because of an understanding of the meaning of the symbolism was accepted by God, and sacrifices done without faith and merely as ritual were not accepted by God. If you want all of that can be backed up with scriptural examples.

[Seth Doty]

Those in Abraham's Bosom were already saved, which is why they were there. Christ likely preached the good news of His coming, not a salvation message.

Ditto. As can be seen in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, there was a uncrossable barrier fixed and those on each side had their eternal destiny set. The preaching Christ did would be along the lines of filling in the details of his victory and triumphing over satan publicly. It would not be a "believe on me" message.

[Invicta]

2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


"This day is salvation come to this house." He was a son of Abraham by faith, as we are. Jesus had not, at that time, gone to the cross, but he was saved.

Question : was it Jesus or Zacchaeus who was of small stature?

We know the answer to that, don't we?

"Zacchaeus was a very little man, and a very little man was he."

Or do we?

[heartstrings]

I appreciate the effort, brother, but that still doesn't answer my concerns and questions from the previous posts.

The Bible says that Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him....
Took him where? Was it to Abraham's Bosom? I don't know but does it matter as long as God was there?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8

Enoch was one of those believers way back in the book of Genesis and wherever God took him, God was there.
God is not confined to the 'location' of Heaven. And what happened to Adam's sin? It ws
as covered by the blood same as anyone else...it was covered by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Adam was saved by grace through faith same as Enoch, Abraham, Noah....and me.

[John81]

The Bible says that Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him....
Took him where? Was it to Abraham's Bosom? I don't know but does it matter as long as God was there?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8

Enoch was one of those believers way back in the book of Genesis and wherever God took him, God was there.
God is not confined to the 'location' of Heaven. And what happened to Adam's sin? It ws
as covered by the blood same as anyone else...it was covered by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Adam was saved by grace through faith same as Enoch, Abraham, Noah....and me.

:amen:

[Guest]

I would summarize all this but its too late at night. I will have to agree anyone saved is saved through faith in God providing a sacrifice acceptable to redeem us...the shed blood of Christ. How this was actually related to the O.T. folks is a matter the Lord will tell me when we get around to that conversation.

[Covenanter]

Can anyone explain the theology of "Abraham's bosom?" Was Jesus turning Rabbinical tradition on its head in his PARABLE?