Is it possible to renounce salvation?

[no name joe]

I do not believe a person can "fall from grace" and lose salvation. However, can a person renounce the decision to follow Christ? I have known a few people who have done so. One experienced salvation, and lived like it for awhile. However, after a number of terrible events in his life, he walked away and renounced his belief in Christ, and now lives as an athiest.

Again, I am not talking about losing salvation due to a mere drifting away from faith or falling into sin. I am talking about a conscious decision to renounce Christ and their faith in him. What happens when people do this? Do they lose the salvation that they at one point in their lives accepted? If they renounce it, it is possible for this person to recover their faith?

Hebrews 6:4-6, "4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

I have a few questions about this:

1. What does this verse mean by "fall away." At other places in the Bible, it is clear to me that merely backsliding or falling into sin, or becoming lazy in faith does not cause one to lose salvation. Does a person fall away when one consciously renounces their faith in their hearts, after having become enlightened and tasted the gift of salvation? I know Peter denied Christ, but that was a moment of weakness where I do not believe he renounced Christ in his heart. What is required for one to "Fall away?" In reconciling the doctorine of "once saved always saved" with my experience in watching people truly renouncing their faith, I tend to think this is what these verses are referring to. For the person who has "fallen away" has "crucified the Son of God afresh" and "put him to an open shame." this indicates a consiouce renouncemnt of faith. After receiving salvation, if a person walks away and renounces it, it will be impossible to renew them again unto repentence. In other words, a person does not lose salvation, they throw it away. They renounce it and walk away puting Jesus to an open shame. At that point, their heart becomes so hardened, that it is impossible for them to repent again.

2. If a person does "Fall away" as is meant in this verse, can they repent of their renouncement? Is this the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit? After receiving the Holy Spirit in salvation, in renouncing one's faith in Christ, does that so reject the Holy Spirit that it is not forgivable, and that they will never gain be able to repent? That certainly seems to be what this verse is saying.

3. If the above explanation is true, then what does it take for one to renounce salvation? Must it be only in their hearts and minds? Must they make an open profession to someone or in public that they renounced it? At what point does shaky faith become a revocation of one's profession of faith?

The reason I ask is that I am sure we have all known people who accepted God's gift of salvation, who later renounced that gift. This seems to be at odds with my belief that once you accept the gift, you cannot lose it. However, I do not believe the two are at odds at all. To say you cannot lose salvation is vastly different than saying once can renounce salvation. saying one can lose salvation indicates that some external force can cause a person to stumble and fall from grace. The Bible is clear that no external force can do so or that no one can pluck you from the Father's hands. However, is it possible for a person to run out of the Father's hands of their own accord? Experience tells me yes, and seeing what I have seen people do and reading the passage in Hebrews, I think I have reconciled this in my mind.

[John81]

Once one is biblically saved the Holy Ghost seals them and indwells them and they are sons/daughters of God forever after.

Scripture has examples of those who appeared to be saved, acted saved and may have even thought they were saved, but their turning away was due to the fact they were never saved to begin with. None lost their salvation because they had never been saved to begin with.

[coc333]

I do not believe a person can "fall from grace" and lose salvation. However, can a person renounce the decision to follow Christ? I have known a few people who have done so. One experienced salvation, and lived like it for awhile. However, after a number of terrible events in his life, he walked away and renounced his belief in Christ, and now lives as an athiest.

Again, I am not talking about losing salvation due to a mere drifting away from faith or falling into sin. I am talking about a conscious decision to renounce Christ and their faith in him. What happens when people do this? Do they lose the salvation that they at one point in their lives accepted? If they renounce it, it is possible for this person to recover their faith?

Hebrews 6:4-6, "4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

I have a few questions about this:

1. What does this verse mean by "fall away." At other places in the Bible, it is clear to me that merely backsliding or falling into sin, or becoming lazy in faith does not cause one to lose salvation. Does a person fall away when one consciously renounces their faith in their hearts, after having become enlightened and tasted the gift of salvation? I know Peter denied Christ, but that was a moment of weakness where I do not believe he renounced Christ in his heart. What is required for one to "Fall away?" In reconciling the doctorine of "once saved always saved" with my experience in watching people truly renouncing their faith, I tend to think this is what these verses are referring to. For the person who has "fallen away" has "crucified the Son of God afresh" and "put him to an open shame." this indicates a consiouce renouncemnt of faith. After receiving salvation, if a person walks away and renounces it, it will be impossible to renew them again unto repentence. In other words, a person does not lose salvation, they throw it away. They renounce it and walk away puting Jesus to an open shame. At that point, their heart becomes so hardened, that it is impossible for them to repent again.

2. If a person does "Fall away" as is meant in this verse, can they repent of their renouncement? Is this the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit? After receiving the Holy Spirit in salvation, in renouncing one's faith in Christ, does that so reject the Holy Spirit that it is not forgivable, and that they will never gain be able to repent? That certainly seems to be what this verse is saying.

3. If the above explanation is true, then what does it take for one to renounce salvation? Must it be only in their hearts and minds? Must they make an open profession to someone or in public that they renounced it? At what point does shaky faith become a revocation of one's profession of faith?

The reason I ask is that I am sure we have all known people who accepted God's gift of salvation, who later renounced that gift. This seems to be at odds with my belief that once you accept the gift, you cannot lose it. However, I do not believe the two are at odds at all. To say you cannot lose salvation is vastly different than saying once can renounce salvation. saying one can lose salvation indicates that some external force can cause a person to stumble and fall from grace. The Bible is clear that no external force can do so or that no one can pluck you from the Father's hands. However, is it possible for a person to run out of the Father's hands of their own accord? Experience tells me yes, and seeing what I have seen people do and reading the passage in Hebrews, I think I have reconciled this in my mind.

You are pretty much hitting the nail on the head. Let me be clear; the Bible does not teach once saved always saved. There are simply too many passages, including the ones you mentioned above, which contradict this belief. The question isn't whether something or someone can take your salvation from you for that is clearly not possible (John 10:27-29), but one can certainly decide to turn away from God. Study Acts 8:10ff and how Simon was saved and then "fell away." He was instructed that he must then repent. We see this in 1 John 1:9 when we are told that we must confess our sins.

For the record, the Bible clearly states that we can "fall from Grace" Gal 5:4.

As to the "unpardenable" sin, go back and study Matt 12. Jesus clearly explains what He is speaking of.

[coc333]

Once one is biblically saved the Holy Ghost seals them and indwells them and they are sons/daughters of God forever after.

Scripture has examples of those who appeared to be saved, acted saved and may have even thought they were saved, but their turning away was due to the fact they were never saved to begin with. None lost their salvation because they had never been saved to begin with.

Do you believe that Simon the "scorcer" was saved? (Acts 8:10ff) Do you believe he was then lost?

If he was not saved then how do you explain that he did the exact same thing that the others there did? Acts 12 we are told taht they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, adn the anme of Jesus Christ (by your own view this is "all it takes" to be saved), they were baptized, both men and women." (they actually obeyed the Gospel). Verse 13 says that "Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip" (he did the same exact thing) If he was not saved, were the others?

What do we then read that he did? He sinned by trying to buy the ability to lay hands on and impart the miraculous abilities. What was Peter's response? He told him that "thy money persh with thee." Was he thus lost? IF not then what was Peter speaking of? Was Peter wrong in what he said?

Now, Peter told him to repent that he might be forgiven (vs 22). We are not told whether he ever did though he did ask Peter to pray for him.


How do you explain this John?

[JerryNumbers]

They can denounce, that's for sure, yet they cannot lose their salvation.

[Covenanter]

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

What did Simon believe? Obviously his heart was never changed - he was looking to add to his power of sorcery. Also these signs did not follow him (Mark 16) or he would not have tried to buy the power. Instead he was exposed as still being in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.

Note that he did not "renounce salvation" but was never saved. Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

[Covenanter]

They can denounce, that's for sure, yet they cannot lose their salvation.

You are on very dangerous ground, reassuring those who made a profession of faith & then deny Christ that they are eternally secure.

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

Are true born again believers in view here? I think not - they have tasted & rejected.

[trc123]

You are pretty much hitting the nail on the head. Let me be clear; the Bible does not teach once saved always saved. There are simply too many passages, including the ones you mentioned above, which contradict this belief. The question isn't whether something or someone can take your salvation from you for that is clearly not possible (John 10:27-29), but one can certainly decide to turn away from God. Study Acts 8:10ff and how Simon was saved and then "fell away." He was instructed that he must then repent. We see this in 1 John 1:9 when we are told that we must confess our sins.

For the record, the Bible clearly states that we can "fall from Grace" Gal 5:4.

As to the "unpardenable" sin, go back and study Matt 12. Jesus clearly explains what He is speaking of.

Can someone please boot this poster off the board. They are no longer debating the scriptures, they are teaching this heresy as truth.

Thank you. Peace! Out............

[no name joe]

Once one is biblically saved the Holy Ghost seals them and indwells them and they are sons/daughters of God forever after.

Scripture has examples of those who appeared to be saved, acted saved and may have even thought they were saved, but their turning away was due to the fact they were never saved to begin with. None lost their salvation because they had never been saved to begin with.

THen what does this verse mean? Hebrews 6:4-6, "4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."


If one has become enlightened adn tasted of the heavenly git of salvation, and made partakers of the Holy Ghost, did they not have a salvation experience?

How do you know they were not saved to begin with? If one confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, and places his faith in Christ, and beleives in his heard that God raised Jesus from the dead, they became "partakers of the Holy Ghost." If you say that they were never saved to begin with, that makes man the judge of salvatino, does it not?

I am not talking about people who drift away. I am talking about one, who after receiving the Holy Spirit and accepting Jesus Christ, consciously decides to reject him. This goes beyond a mere denial due to fear, etc. such as happened with Peter when he denied Christ. It is an outright rebelion a hardening of one's heart, and renouncing Christ. Perhaps that is what happened with Judas?

I am speaking of the person who is sold out for Christ, has devoted him or herself 100% to the cause of Christ, is producing fruit of the Spirit, and if you asked them, they are certain they are saved. Then, after a terrible event in their life, instead of relying on Christ, they renounce him and never again wants anything to do with Christ.

I am not certain you can say they were never saved. I have seen this happen where one day, people where sold out and if you asked anyone, that person would be the be the best example of a Christian. The after they renounce their faith and revoke their decision to follow Christ, they have a hard, bitter heart. Something happened in their life. I don't think I can write it off as, "Oh, they were never saved." That leaves one of two possibilities:

1. They were saved, and they still are, but they are just not living out their faith, or
2. They were saved, and once they renounced it, God hardened their heart.

If we are free to accept Christ, are we not then free to reject him later on and renounce and revoke that decision?

Simply saying that person was never saved is an easy answer on its face but does not explain the situation.

[no name joe]

You are on very dangerous ground, reassuring those who made a profession of faith & then deny Christ that they are eternally secure.

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

Are true born again believers in view here? I think not - they have tasted & rejected.

This is exactely my question and point. Is it possible for one to renounce salvation? If you answer is no, then it seems to me that you must accept Calvinism with their irresistable grace. If your answer is yes, then then you must further explore, what is the effect of that renunciation? Is that person no longer saved? Is it possible for that person to return after fully and completely renouncing salvation after having tasted of that wonderful gift? Hebrews seems to answer that in my mind.

In Hebrews, I think he is certainly speaking of true believer. The writer is writing to those "once enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." A person who is made a partaker of the Holy Ghost is saved. A person who has not been saved is not a partaker of the Holy Ghost. So if a believer then renounces thier salvation and puts Christ to an open shame, it is impossible for them to return. They are forever damned.

I think the application of this is of utmost importance. WHen people reject Christ after they have accepted him, it is always in connection with a terrible event, such as losing a child, being seriously hurt by the church, their child being molested, etc. It is so important for the church to be there and show people love and compassion during these times and to care for people going through very trying times...times that test the faith of people in a very profound and deep way. In those moments, it is easy for a believer to renounce Christ, erroneously believing that God has caused their suffering. It is important for us to be understanding through teh questioning, and be there to support them and guide them through their emotional healing. If we are not, then the person is more likely to rounounce Christ. There is a profound importance in being there for people in suffering and in need. Their faith may depend on it.

[Anon]

If you can lose your salvation...that means you are keeping it by works. (Because if your works are "bad", i.e. rejecting Christ, then your WORKS kept or lost your salvation).

So to believe you can renounce salvation is to believe in works salvation. So the question is, do you believe in grace or works salvation? God says plainly in Ephesians, its NOT of works...if it was works, we could boast. God saved us by grace through faith, NOT of ourselves. If we can choose to keep or reject our salvation, then it is not God, but us doing it.

It is likely that anyone who can fully reject Christ was never saved to begin with. Those saved have the Holy Spirit inside to bear witness with their spirit and those who would then be an atheist surely do not have the Holy Spirit inside. First John has a lot to say about those who would claim to be saved but then not have the spirit of Christ for real.

[Bro Jim]

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I believe that means self also.

[HappyChristian]

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I believe that means self also.

Exactly. None of us is more powerful than God. Not accepting the idea that oneself can renounce Christ is not Calvinism. It is (the not accepting, I mean) a belief consistent with the scriptural teaching of eternal security (once we are saved, it is God's responsibility to keep us so, not ours). God never gave a caveat when He said the life He gives is eternal/everlasting. He never says "unless you renounce me." Now, to be honest, I have my doubts that someone who actually renounces Christ was ever saved. However, I do know that people get hurt and allow bitterness to creep in for various reasons, and they turn away from Christianity. That isn't actually renouncing Christ so much as it is renouncing those who represent Him.

The Bible tells us we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. John 10:29 tells us NO MAN is able to pluck those who have turned to Christ out of the Father's hand. No man means no man. Including oneself.

Kita was right: if we can renounce our salvation, then we personally are responsible for maintaining it. And that would make it a salvation of works - based on ourselves. Salvation is a gift from God, with nothing we can do to keep ourselves saved.

[no name joe]

Exactly. None of us is more powerful than God. Not accepting the idea that oneself can renounce Christ is not Calvinism. It is (the not accepting, I mean) a belief consistent with the scriptural teaching of eternal security (once we are saved, it is God's responsibility to keep us so, not ours). God never gave a caveat when He said the life He gives is eternal/everlasting. He never says "unless you renounce me." Now, to be honest, I have my doubts that someone who actually renounces Christ was ever saved. However, I do know that people get hurt and allow bitterness to creep in for various reasons, and they turn away from Christianity. That isn't actually renouncing Christ so much as it is renouncing those who represent Him.

The Bible tells us we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. John 10:29 tells us NO MAN is able to pluck those who have turned to Christ out of the Father's hand. No man means no man. Including oneself.

Kita was right: if we can renounce our salvation, then we personally are responsible for maintaining it. And that would make it a salvation of works - based on ourselves. Salvation is a gift from God, with nothing we can do to keep ourselves saved.

I understand what you are saying. However, that still does not explain that passage I quoted in Hebrews. If once cannot renounce salvation, what does this passage mean? It leaves me a bit confused if we say one cannot renounce salvation.

Also, in John 10:29, it says no man can pluck you from the Father's hand. That implies an external force applied to a person, such as Satan. I am not sure this applies to one's self saying you cannot renounce salvation. If that were included, it would have said, "No man can walk out of the Father's hands." I am not disagreeing with you, but I do not see how John 10:29 can be extended to apply to one's own decision.

As far as renouncing salvation implying that salvation is works ba. sed, I do not believe it is. No works can earn salvation. That is crystal clear. However, a man must respond to to the Father's call to accept the gift. Each person is free to chose to reject it. THe rich young ruler went away sad because he could not do what was asked of him upon receiving the call of Christ. What was required of him? Well, selling his possessions, giving to the poor and following the call of Christ. Those actions would not have saved him, but responding affirmativly to the call of Christ would have. THe grace God extends through Christ is where salvation is found, but it does take belief and a decision to follow Christ.

So, after making a decision, is it not possible for one to make the decision to throw out that gift of grace? Again, I am not arguing one way or another, just trying to reconcile the Scriptures on this. I still do not know what the Hebrews passage means if once cannot revoke his decision. However, when I read in the context of one being able to revoke his decision, then it makes perfect sense.

This is a difficult issue for me to reconcile in my mind as I read the scriptures on the issue.

[JerryNumbers]

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I believe that means self also.

Exactly, yet many will take verses out of context in order to try and prove what they want the Bible to Teach.

And like what John stated, once the Holy Spirit has come to adobe in a person that person is sealed, and it has nothing to do with Calvinism.

And of course, if a person has never been saved they cannot renounce what they never had.