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coc333

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Everything posted by coc333

  1. Jerry, Thank you for clearing that up for me.
  2. Paul was speaking of Biblical Doctrine, not denominational doctrine.
  3. Jerry, Are you saying that the IFB have no traditions?
  4. Jerry, Why would you accuse someone of getting their beliefs "from the RCC?" Unless I am wrong, you believe in the false doctrine of "once saved always saved," did you "get that from Luther? Must have since it isn't taught in the Bible. Once again, the church of Christ is not a denomination; it is not a "part" of the church but is the church which belongs to Christ. We do not get our beliefs from the RCC nor any other denomination. We obtain our beliefs from the one and only source and that is the Word of God. By the way Jerry, most baptist believe in the Word as the only source of authority. Did we get that belief from you guys? Most baptist believe that baptism is by immersion in watter. Did we get that from you?
  5. And therein lies the danger of taking passages out of context, linking passages which are not teaching the same things, etc.
  6. Dennis, First, the thief on the cross died under the OT. He was not under the Christian Age since Christ had not yet died. We also take noted that Christ had the power to fogive sins while He was on earth (Matt 9:6; Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24). Now that He has died, was burried, rose again on the third day and accended back to the father; now that His church has been established we are under the Christian "Age," which means we must submit to Him through the NT teachings. Also, there is nothing that says that the thief was not baptized under John's baptism.
  7. Jerry, There are many differences.
  8. Jerry, A dictionary will define a word in every way that it is used in society. I suggest that you look up the word "baptized" in your dictionary. You might be surprised that one definision includes sprinkling which is not a Biblical definition of the word as even the Baptist admit. Denomination is a part of a whole. The church of Christ is not a part of anything but is in fact a whole; it is the church which Christ established and owns.
  9. Nathaniel, you seem to imply it is either 1 Co 1:10 or Eph 4:3. These two passages are saying the same thing. They are calling for unity not division. They are teaching that Christians are to speak the same things not divide and not to have “unity in diversity,” that is to remain "unified" even though error is being taught and praciticed. There is no unity when error stands against truth. Amos 3:3 comes to mind. When error is taught/practiced, it is those who are teaching/practicing error that are causing division not those who are standing firm on the Truth/Word.
  10. Being in any denomination is a sin. The Bible condemns it and so I must do the same. Ah, Mark 9:38-40….good passage but it does not support denominationalism. Notice that not once did Jesus say that this man taught something other than the truth. As a matter of fact, as you have underlined, he said” he that is not against us is on our part.” If you read the Bible it is clear that those who teach error is not “for us.” You might turn to John 15 where Jesus spoke of the vine and branches. Many people mistakenly turn to that passage to justify denominationalism; it doesn’t teach such either. I have not used circular reasoning. If you have an example of such, please provide it. Yes, you asked me and I answered the question on convenience. The fact is that I just did not answer it the way you wanted me to. It really isn’t a issue of convenience. As I stated, the church is the church regardless of what I say or do. Your implication is, of course, that I am just conveniently labeling “my denomination” (the church of Christ is not a denomination) as the right church. I will not say something that is simply false. No, I am not saying that being a part of any group or association is what puts anyone into “the church.” What the Bible says is that by obeying the Gospel the LORD puts me into THE church. (Acts 2:47) I have read Baptist writings that state that one can be a Christian without being in the Baptist church. Others claim the same thing. If I can be a Christian without being in any denomination and I can then I choose to do so. I choose to be a Christian only. As to the issue of the trinity: I would be concerned if I were teaching error about God. I would be afraid if I were denying that either the Father, the Son, or the HS do not exist. I don’t have a plan of salvation but God’s plan of salvation is that we must Hear (Rom 10:17); believe in Christ (John 3:16); Repent of our sins (Acts 3:19); Confess Christ as the son of God (Matt 10:32-33; Acts 8:36ff); and be immersed in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). That is God’s plan since it is His Word, not mine. You are welcome. Again, I am more than happy to discuss the Bible.
  11. You are welcome Rick. 1. Cornelius was not saved prior to baptism. The HS was given in the same way it was in Acts 2 to the Apostles. These two passages (Acts 2 and Acts 10) were the fulfillment of the HS being poured out upon all flesh as we study in Jude 2. This is not speaking of the HS in the sense that Christians receive Him today. This is a much deeper discussion than we will be able to have in one or two sentences. 2. The Bible teaches that when one hears the word (Rom 10:17), believes in Christ (John 3:16), repents of his/her sins (Acts 3:19), confesses Christ as the Son of God (Matt 10:32-33), and immersed in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) is saved and Added to the church by the Lord (Acts 2:41, 47). A person who is saved must remain faithful (Rev 2:10). You discuss all of these religious groups. People who participate in such are not being faithful and above that, to my knowledge these groups do not teach such anyway. 3. Convenient? I don’t believe convenience has anything to do with it. It has nothing to do with me in that the church is the church no matter what I personally know, accept or practice. The church is not the church because I am a member of it but because Christ founded it. 4. I am glad that I was able to answer your question. 5. We can’t disagree with the Bible and be a Christian and thus go to heaven. Allow me to clarify. I don’t believe that any of us are perfect nor do I believe that we will get everything perfectly correct. I am sure that there are things that I still don’t understand…well, I know that there are issues which I still do not fully understand; there are certain issues which God does not see the need for us to know/understand everything. But, if we are talking about what it takes to be saved/become a Christian, live faithfully, etc we can understand it and must understand it. Remember that the Word is the Truth (John 17:17) and that it will set us free. (John 8:32) Allow me to ask you a question or two. 1. Can you admit that you and I do not agree with each other on the plan of Salvation? To my understanding, you assert that we are saved by “faith only.” I assert that the Bible teaches that one must, among other things, be baptized for the remission of sins. 2. Are you willing to concede that AT LEAST one of us is INCORRECT in this matter (not discussing which if either is correct)? 3. Do you admit that if you are correct in saying faith only then I am teaching a false doctrine and thus am lost and that all who follow that false doctrine are lost but if I am correct and you are in fact wrong in so much as we do have to be baptized for the remission of sins then you are lost and all who follow that doctrine are lost? Of course, I am guessing that you will admit that if we are both in error then we are both lost? 4. Based on these previous questions, do you see the sinfulness of denominationalism (denominations) which teaches false doctrines on such important subjects as salvation?
  12. Jim, I think there seems to be a misunderstanding in our presrent discourse. When I speak of being disappointed in the behavior of certain Christians, I am not speaking of a willingness to stand for the truth. I am not speaking of those who know the Word and are willing to speak out about it. I am speaking of those who yell, make personal attacks, treat others unkindly.... I am forward in the sense that I am willing to discuss the Word of God. As I have stated in previous post, I believe that any time and any place is the right time and right place to discuss the Word of God. I, to my knowledge, have never made any personal attacks against anyone on this board. I have always tried to be respectful in discussions but I have also not been willing to back down from what the Word teaches. Remember this, Christ was "militant" as was Paul, Peter, and others. I suppose it just depends on what your definition of militant is.
  13. Jim, First allow me to say that I do not who you and Rick and others have been talking with or seeing because most of what I have heard about the church of Christ members which you have "met and or known" are far off from the people that I know. Now, are there some people who profess to be Christians who believe in things contrary to what the Bible says? Of course. Are there people who profess to be Christian who will treat people undkindly? Sadly, yes. I wish that people understood the harm they do by being unkind. But, most members of the church that I know would either not speak at all for fear of saying something wrong or would be joyful to talk with someone about the word of God. At one time I would have fallen into the first group; now I welcome the opportunity to speak to anyone who is willing to discuss the Word. As far as "arguing no matter what scriptures are shown," I could say the same thing for you. I have shown multiple scriptures which clearly contradict many of the things which you are claiming and yet you still refuse to see the truth. As to Saylan and others who might wish to understand more about what we believe, I am more than happy to discuss any point with anyone who wishes to know about something. I will answer any question to the best of my ability and when I might not know something I will be more than happy to study further so that I can answer the question. Am I "militant?" Only as far as the Word of God teaches me to be. It teaches me to contend for the faith (Jude 3), to preach the truth in love (Eph 4:15), etc. I will be glad to look at anything anyone has to say but I will not believe it just because it is said. (1 John 4:1)
  14. Jerry, If a lost person can not understand ANY Bible doctrine until he/she is saved and If God's plan of Salvation is Bible doctrine and if a person can not do what is needed until he/she knows what it is that he/she must do (whether it is by "faith only" or whatever else) then no lost person could ever be saved. We can easily see that does not work.
  15. Seth, I am not being inconsistent. You are taking things which are not equal, not the same and attempting to make them equal, make them the same; but you can't. As I stated in my previous post, the real problem is in our hermonutics. How do we read and interpret the Bible. If we do not get this point correct then we will get so many other issues wrong. I don't know how much studying you have put into church History, especially the restoration period in the US. You might be aware that there was a division (a falling away) between the church of Christ and the Christian Church. Most people who look at this issue think that it was over the use of MI but in fact the real issue is biblical authority. This is all related to proper hermenutics. You and others seem to think that it all comes down to my personal preference vs your pp; my own interpretation vs your int. And that one is as good as another but it isn't about me nor you. I would like to share a quote with you. Brother Roy Deaver, a gospel preacher who has passed from this life, wrote in his book Ascertaining Bible Authority, "The authority lies not in the fact that I read it, but in the fact that god wrote it; not in the fact that I reasoned correctly, but in the fac that God implied it." pg 57 The Bible does not teach against MI because I prefer it or because I interpreted it as such but because God said what He said. Salvation does not include baptism because I believe it does nor because I interpreted it as such but in fact because that is what God has said.
  16. Seth, yes we use hymnals/song books. No, it is not the same thing as using MI. The hymnal/song book is an aide which does not change worship in any way. I am commanded to sing (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16). If I use a song book am I doing anything other than singing? No, of course not. But, what if I use MI? Am I then doing something more than singing? Absolutely. I am now singing and playing. These are not the same thing. This is why it is important to study hermenutics. We have been studying the subject here.
  17. Jerry, (66) first we see that this passage is describing a discussion of Christ during His life. It is not speaking of an event in the church age since the church had not been established at this point. Second, this is not describing the “sinner’s prayer” which is so often used by those who claim to believe in “faith only.” I say claimed because I have not found many who profess to believe in faith only who actually preach/practice it. Most add grace, repentance, confession, the blood of Christ (all of which are a part of salvation but exclude the claim of faith only), even “the sinner’s prayer” which is not found in the Bible. Actually, what seems to be the true meaning of the “faith only” doctrine is that being baptized is not part of salvation. I have some friends who are Baptist (Not IFB) who claim that one is saved by faith but once one is saved then he/she must be baptized and if he/she is not baptized then he/she was NEVER saved in the first place. Funny, sounds like a person admitting that one must be baptized in order to be saved. Rancher (69), tell me how a baptistery has anything to do with the worship service. It is related to salvation in that we are immersed in water in the baptistery but the Bible does not specify where the water must be. We are taught that we must be baptized/immersed in water, much water at that (John 3:23, Acts 8:36ff) but what contains the water is not specified. There actually have been those who would cause division over such an issue; how sad how many ways man can find to divide the Lord’s church.
  18. Rick, allow me to try again. 1. The Bible does not at any point give any command to nor any example of any person “praying Jesus into his heart.” We are not saved through some prayer. Now, does God hear a prayer given by a sinner (a non-Christian/someone not saved)? I have hear people who have said yes and I have heard those who have said no, but it isn’t what a person says but what God’s word says. We have John 9:31 which says, “Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” This man made the statement that God doesn’t, but what this man speaking by inspiration. I don’t see any indication that he was. We have the example of Cornelius in Acts 10 who was not a Christian at this point and prayed. God certainly heard his prayers. We have various passages which discuss the prayers of the saints. (1 John 5:14-15, Heb 4:14-16, etc.) I certainly believe that as a Christian I have blessings which those who are not in Christ do not (Eph 1:3). The real question is does God answer the prayers of sinners? 2. One must be baptized (Mark 16:16; Gal 3:27; Rom 6:3, etc). It does matter why we are baptized. Acts 2:38 states that we must be baptized for (unto) remission of sins. If I am “baptized because I have already been saved” then I am not obeying this command. My faith is in Christ; it is in that if I submit to Him/obey Him then I am saved. I am not saved because I have earned/merited anything but because I did what He commanded me to because He is Lord and He is the perfect sacrifice. I realize that most people who profess “faith only” accuse me of preaching a meritorious works salvation; that is simply not the case. I can not say it enough. I can do nothing that will ever earn my salvation…ever, but that does not mean that there is nothing that I must do. Again, it does not matter who the man is who baptizes the individual. What does matter is the heart (mind) of the person who is being baptized. 3. A person who obeys the Gospel does have to remain faithful (Rev 2:10). That does include actually continuing to be a part of the worship service, the assembling of the saints (Heb 10:24-25). Since denominationalism is sinful (1 Cor 1:10, Eph 4:1ff, John 17), then I can not be a part of such. Allow me to explain it this way…..we will link it to our discussion of MI….if it is a sin to worship the Lord with MI, then I am not being faithful to participate in such worship. I realize that you do not believe it is a sin but I submit to you that the Bible does teach that it is and thus it would be sinful to participate in such and I would not be faithful in doing so. I am also not faithful in participating in denominationalism/division. 4. Not to oversimplify things but follow the Bible. I can not in one or two sentences answer this question. One must faithfully assemble with the saints, worship God in the manner that he/she is commanded to do, live the life of a Christian avoiding those things which are sinful (Gal 5:19ff, Col 3:1ff, etc). I know that this may not answer your question to your satisfaction but it is the best I can do in a sentence or two. I am not sure if you are getting at the point of a “creed” or not but I will say that we do not have a creed; we do not have two or three or ten points that sums everything up. 5. Please define what you mean by doctrinal. If you are speaking about salvation, proper worship, etc then in no way am I saying that we can disagree with the Bible. There are issues that many people argue over which is silly to worry about. I have heard of a few who do not believe in the trinity but not many. I believe it was Barton W. Stone during the restoration period who denied the trinity. I have a book by one Gospel preacher who denies the trinity but those may be the only two in the church that I know anything of. I don’t know who you have been around but I can only speak of my experience. I will say this, I would be more that happy to discuss this subject with anyone and can provide ample scripture related to this matter. Again, I hope that I have answered your questions this time. I am glad to have the opportunity to discuss the Word.
  19. Rick, I posted just after you did; sorry that I missed your post. I will be glad to answer your questions or any others as well. Allow me to clearify the apparent idea that you seem to have about the church of Christ. We do not have any creeds or such. We simply look to the Bible and follow that. The Bible is our only authority. I believe that the Baptist actually believe this. Of course, as individuals there are differing views on various issues. I will do the best I can to answer your questions. 1. If you are speaking of the sinner’s prayer in the sense that I understand it (“Lord come into my heart….or such) then there is no such thing. The Bible does not teach any such thing. We are not saved by saying some sinner’s prayer. 2. Actually, I answered this question in my previous post. The issue isn’t the specific person baptizing but the person who is being baptized. 3. You must remain faith even to the point of death (Rev 2:10). I trust that this question is getting at the doctrine of “once saved always saved.” The Bible does not teach this false doctrine. 4. I am not sure exactly what your asking here so I can not really answer your question other than to repeat what I stated in #3 since I suppose you are again discussing once saved always saved. 5. Again, you appear to be discussing once saved always saved. If you wanted to discuss the subject, you should have just brought it up. This seems to be your concern. I do want to say as to your reference to the trinity or Godhead, that you have brought this up before. I attempted to clear up your misconception but must have not succeeded. While there are some who profess to be members of the Lord’s church who deny the trinity, most members of the Lord’s church teach the “trinity.” That is that there is 3 in 1. We know from the Bible that there is but one God but there are three “persons” in the Godhead (Father, Son, HS). I must admit that I do not completely understand everything about God I will continue to study and do the best that I can.
  20. You know Seth, (55) I am sure that you are likely right in that Salyan simply does not want to go over the same subject again; I am sure that there are others who feel the same way, but the truth remains that it is always the right time to discuss salvation. As far as stony ground….I don’t give up on hoping that the Word will hit its mark. One person may choose to ignore or reject the truth but you never know who might be reached at some point. I know that there are many Christians who do not think that door knocking is of any benefit; they believe that it just doesn’t work. I will admit that most people will reject the Word but I have been on more than one door knocking campaign and even 1 person reached is worth the effort. I believe that the confusion, (57) at least in some cases, is in a misunderstanding of the subject of works. The Bible speaks about meritorious works and it also speaks of works of obedience. Baptism is not a work of merit. It is a work of obedience. I was not baptized in order to earn my salvation; I, nor any other person, will ever merit salvation. We simply can not earn our salvation. But, does that mean that there is nothing for me to do? Not according to the Bible. One thing which we are required to do is to be baptized. We are commanded to be baptized for remission of sins (Acts 2:38). We are told to be baptized for salvation (Mark 16:16). We are taught that we are to be baptized to wash away our sins (Acts 22:16). Yes, it is the blood of Christ which washes us but it is through baptism we contact that blood. Annie, are you suggesting that we simply set back and wait for the HS to teach us the truth? Are you saying that man does not play a part in reaching the lost or that it is not though preaching that man is reached? If that is what you are suggesting, I would suggest you read 1 Cor 1:21 (Cf Acts 9, 22, 26). Jerry, (58) I do not agree with your views on Salvation. I am sad to know that you don’t see the truth (I don’t say that with any malice or pride but with sincere concern) but I don’t understand your enjoyment in sharing the truth (at least what you see as the truth). I love to share the Word of God with others. I know of many who think it is a waste of time, who think that there are so many things that we can better spend our time doing. I love the Word of God, and I love sharing it with anyone and everyone that I can. Yes, there are many who reject it and many who will treat anyone sharing the Word very hatefully. I spoke of door knocking. I have on more than one occasion had the door slammed in my face; I recall one home where the door was slammed in our face not once but twice (wife and then the husband). The Bible teaches that the person is not rejecting me (or who ever is sharing the truth) but God. First of all Matt (59), I am not a pastor but a preacher. Pastors are Elders not preacher, but that is another discussion. Also, a person does not have to be baptized by a preacher nor by a pastor; any man can baptize another person. As I stated above, baptism is not a meritorious work but a work of obedience. Man is the one who is being baptized. Tim, I am not attempting to lead anyone astray. I am simply trying share the truth with others. Ah…out comes the word Campbellism. I have been called a Campbellite before. I am not and your calling me such does nothing more than shows your lack of knowledge on church history as a whole and on the restoration specifically. Alexander Campbell did not found the church of Christ (Jesus did that) nor did he even found it in the US. The church was here prior to Alexander Campbell even coming to the US. You should do some research. Tim, I can and have supported everything that I have said about both Salvation and MI. The Bible is quiet clear even if man does not want to hear it.
  21. Jerry, I must say that I agree with you in as much as it is always the right time to discuss salvation. Obviously, we do not agree on what in fact in involved in salvation nor on some of the other comments you made in this post but it is always the right time to discuss salvation.
  22. Jim, perhaps I have not been as clear as I need to be. I am not saying that the OT is not useful. I am not saying that we can not use it to learn principles. What I am saying and what the Bible does teach is that we do not look to the OT to know what “acts of worship” that we are taught to offer to the Lord. We are not to follow the OT commands. I hope that I am a bit clearer in what I am saying now. Certainly the Word is clear even when we are not. Tim, you are funny. Seth, you are not. All I can say is WOW!!!!!!......WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  23. Now, let us turn to the topic of mechanical instruments (MI). There are multiple people involved in this discussion so I will attempt to answer any and all points in this one post rather than posting individual replies. Forgive me if I miss one of your points; I will try my best to get to each one. Again, I will try to post the specific post number which is found in the top right hand of each post. Seth, (post 38), you failed to list even one passage that says that it is ok to use MI in NT worship services. The passages which you did list (Matt 5:17, 1 Cor 10:11, 2 Tim 3:16-17) does not in any way justify MI. Yes, the OT is inspired. Yes, it is there for our benefit, for our learning (Rom 15:4) and yes, Christ came to fulfill rather than to destroy. He did fulfill and it was nailed to His cross (Col 2:14). Here is a thought for you. What does 2 Peter 1:3 tell us? It tells us that God has provided to us everything pertaining to life and Godliness (of course we are under the NT which is what Peter is discussing). We are not told that we are to use MI in NT worship. Therefore, it must not pertain to life and Godliness. Rom 10:17 tells us that faith comes from the Word of God (NT in our case). We are not told to use MI in the NT worship. Therefore it must not be of faith that MI is used. It amazes me how everyone keeps bringing up things which do not have anything to do with worshipping God. Toilets (post 9), English translations (38), Buildings (38), Automobiles (41), shoes (40) are all brought up to try to justify the use of MI in NT worship. Again, not one of these has anything to do with proper worship. Not one of these in anyway changes the worship of God. If this is the best anyone has then there isn’t much that you have to “hang your hat on” in relation to MI. Seth, you say that “Biblically Christians have liberty to do anything they like as long as it is not sin in and of itself, and is not a bad testimony and stumbling block to others that leads them astray.” I suppose that you can use hamburgers and coke on the Lord’s Supper if you so desire. We both know better than that. Yet we have no command not to. The Bible is clear as to how man is to worship God. It says that we are to do so in spirit and in truth (John 4:23-24). Remember that truth is in fact the Word of God (John 17:17). We will focus our discussion on the singing aspect of worship rather than each aspect of worship. We are told to sing (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). I am told to do so with understanding (1 Cor 14:15). I am told what to sing and what singing is for (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). Yet, I am not told in even 1 passage in the NT that I am to play a MI. Surely God is smart enough to know what He wants, isn’t He? Surely if He want MI, he would have given command or even an example of their use in the NT and yet He did not do so. Why? I so often hear someone make the argument that God has not told us NOT to use them. He did not give us any command NOT to use them. IF only He would have said thou shalt NOT use MI, I would not use them. How many of those same people would agree with that same argument if it was turned against them. What if “Bob” was to go to the repair shop and tell the mechanic that he wanted his car’s oil changed? He leaves the car there and goes shopping with his wife. Upon returning a few hours later he finds a bill which is not only for an oil change but also includes 4 new tires and a paint job. Bob tells his mechanic that he did not authorize him to do such. To which the mechanic replies…you did not tell me not to either. Would Bob pay the bill? Would the law expect him to? Why is it we would have no problem understanding this in our own lives but when God tells us what he wants, we think he also has to tell us what he did not want? Noah is a prime example of what could have been done. God said use Gopher wood. What if Noah had have chosen to include pine and cedar and maybe some oak, after all, God did not say not to, did He? Jerry, you are talking about a pitch pipe. (39) We do not use a pitch pipe at the congregation that I am with though I have seen it used. It is blown to find the pitch and then put away prior to singing. It is not used as a part of the worship service and does not change worship to God in any way. If it was used while singing, I would be the first to say that the Bible does not permit it. Covenant (40) once again you go to the OT. We are under the NT. Please provide even 1 verse in the NT which authorizes the use of MI in NT worship. Until then, you are simply offering your own desire over that of God’s Word. Covenant, sin is sin. It is all the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) or failing to do that which we know is good (James 4:17). The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 and it separates us from God (Isa 59:1-2). But, we are not abiding in Him if we are not continuing to obey Him. Rick ( 42), Rick, Rick Rick…..where do I even begin? Are you suggesting that because one person who claims to be a member of the church of Christ did something which has no bases on scripture (the lady you mentioned) that we all are somehow confused? Surely you can see the lack of any understanding in that? I see so many different views among the IFB on this very site. Am I to take the views of one and then label you as believing that even though you don’t? Are there those who profess to be faithful members of the Lord’s church who teach and/or practice error? Certainly…I can name more than one; but whatever any one person teaches, the word still says what it says and it does not authorize the use of MI.
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