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Is it possible to renounce salvation?

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Amen!

Scripture is also clear that if we are truly saved there will be change in our hearts and lives. Too many preach that one can be saved and act like the devil. Scripture declares otherwise. Scripture teaches that if we are born again in Christ we ARE new creatures. Scripture also says the fruit in our lives will bear this out and we will strive to pursue living according the Word, walking in the Spirit, not in our flesh.
And another hearty Amen! to that.

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Amen!

Scripture is also clear that if we are truly saved there will be change in our hearts and lives. Too many preach that one can be saved and act like the devil. Scripture declares otherwise. Scripture teaches that if we are born again in Christ we ARE new creatures. Scripture also says the fruit in our lives will bear this out and we will strive to pursue living according the Word, walking in the Spirit, not in our flesh.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaamen!

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Jerry,
I was quoting Jeremiah in relation to seed. The seed determines what it is. Seed from God makes a person a child of God.


No, its all about GRACE, it matters not whose seed you come from. It matters not who your father is, your grand father, nor great grand father, God has no grand children, no great grand children, only children.


Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Yet, there's many that believe if thier father & mother were members of a church, & called their self Christian, that makes them Christian too, but thye only have a false hope of heaven.

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Sadly, most only are taught to have faith in God and that they can enter a contract of eternal life on their terms.

God has already set the guidelines in His Holy Word, if we will have life we must agree to His terms instead of expecting Him to conform to ours.


That is so true, many do put God , {they try to but it never works}, under their very own terms, & never meet Him in under the conditions He has set up.

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1Pe 1:23

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I understand the sower and the seed parable. A parable has always has a limited application. The church, with the seed planted within, saved for all eternity, began on Pentecost.


Trell is 100% right - the incorruptible seed spoken of in 1 Pet 1 is The Word preached to the CHURCH - that being Jesus Christ crucified and risen from the dead - salvation through grace. This is not the same seed spoken of in the parable - that was the LAW - Jesus was speaking to JEWS not the church as He was in MATHEW 7 that so many of you like to quote when stating that people can profess salvation and not be saved. Mat 7 has NOTHING to do with the church and those saved by grace! It's easy to take bible out of context to justify a personal opinion.

Yes there are many "Christians" that are not saved, but there are just as many believers who are saved that live in continual sin through personal disobedience that WILL see eternity in heaven - it's NOT just a few hardcore IFB's that will be in heaven!! I am not pointing fingers here, but don't you think that our message would be better believed if we behaved as He did with charity as he did with the tax collectors and the whores and the "dogs" at the well - SINNERS all. DO you think that statements like "look at that "believer" sinning - was probably never saved to start with!" does any good to the message of servitude, humility, sacrifice, grace, love and charity that Jesus and His disciples AND Paul preached? Does it portray us as one of His own?

It is impossible for us to renounce salvation as it it wasn't ours in the first place but we can, will and often do renounce God and isn't that the same thing? He is after all the AUTHOR of our salvation. Lets not forget Peter (Mat 26:69-75) or was he not saved in the first place either? I am reasonably sure that there was a IFB or two there that snickered and whispered "probably not saved in the first place" while they sat fat and content in the surety of their "sound doctrine" and ignored the agony of their own brothers and sisters struggle with daily sin because they were too "clean" to get dirty for Christ!! Edited by 2Tim215

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Nope, Peter was not saved at the time he denied our Lord.

Note that just prior to the crucifixion Jesus told Peter:

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peter had not been converted yet.

Luke 22:33-34 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Valid point. I agree. Peter wasn't saved under grace after the cross. But he was definitely under the "grace" of Christ. He "renounced" Christ three times and when the cock crowed he wept bitterly - Repentance? Remorse? What makes his sin any different to that of Judas - they both betrayed Christ in there own way. Both were warned that they would. Both "repented". Why is Peter's repentance recognized and Judases not? So were all the disciples except one under the grace of the Living Christ until there conversion at Pentecost? I believe so and I say this because of this:

Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.


This proves that they were "clean" in the eyes of Christ - all except Judas as we know. Like I keep on saying it is possible for a "christian" to not be saved (Judas) but it is also possible for a BELIEVER to live in sin, reject and renounce Christ and still be saved. It's upon Him and not us that we are saved and stay saved.

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2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Judas' repentance was not toward God....he was "remorseful"...."sorry I got caught" and took the coward's way out and hung himself.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Peter's repentance was toward God.

Matthew 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Matthew 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

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The footwashing was not an act to show that the Apostles were under grace. That was a physical washing of the feet.

If foot washing assured one that they fell under the grace of God, then there's not a man, woman or child on this planet who doesn't fit that category.


I didn't say footwashing represented that they were under grace HIS statement did so I will highlight it again:

Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

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Jerry:

I must not be communicating clearly, or we see things vastly differently.

As concerns your physical seed, it matters not who you come from. Anyone can be saved by grace. Or be condemned by unbelief.

As concerns the spiritual seed (which you get when saved by grace), that is God in Christ in you, the hope of glory. That seed, spiritually, which God places within you, does not allow you to lose your eternal life.

Thus my reference to Jeremiah. When a person is saved, a seed is planted by God. You cannot renounce everlasting life, because the seed is there.

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How about going about it this way, it works much better, & the proof is quite clear, to those that believe the holy Bible is God's true Word.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I will say, you have a strange way of trying to prove it, its not though seed, who your birth parents, At the moment a person is saved they are sealed by God's Holy Spirit, plus of course God's promise in 2 Timothy 1:12.

Plus:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

After one has been saved, no one, not even our self, can pluck ourself out of the hand of God.

Plus;

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Jesus made a promise, if we once believed, He will stay faithful.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That once a person has been saved, that person is not condemned, if they were, he would be denying the promise He openly made.

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When the cock crowed. Peter verbally denied Jesus not only once, but three times., But Peter was lying; In his heart it was a different story as the Bible attests, because he went out and wept bitterly afterwards. The Bible also says that it is possible for a man to "forget that he was purged from his old sins". Our flesh, our old nature, still is at enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, it wars against the Spirit. But that Spirit, that inner man CANNOT deny God. It is totally impossible. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit of the Almighty King of Glory and He cannot deny Himself. We can feed our flesh until we sink so deep in unbelief, we will doubt our salvation. But that is a miserable place to be, I've been there and got the T-shirt. I have been in unbelief; but in remembering how POWERFUL and how sweet it was when I first believed I just don't see how I could ever completely denounce God and His salvation.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

As we can see, God knows if we are really His, even if we forget ourselves. And we can also see that even false teachers also have the ability to overthrow our faith, if we give ear to their lies. Imagine believing on Jesus with all your heart, but later believing someone when they tell you that Jesus already came and left you behind, that would be pretty scarey I would think. We can be duped by liars too if we don't stay in the Word, and depart from initquity.

Edited by heartstrings

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When the cock crowed. Peter verbally denied Jesus not only once, but three times., But Peter was lying; In his heart it was a different story as the Bible attests, because he went out and wept bitterly afterwards. The Bible also says that it is possible for a man to "forget that he was purged from his old sins". Our flesh, our old nature, still is at enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, it wars against the Spirit. But that Spirit, that inner man CANNOT deny God. It is totally impossible. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit of the Almighty King of Glory and He cannot deny Himself. We can feed our flesh until we sink so deep in unbelief, we will doubt our salvation. But that is a miserable place to be, I've been there and got the T-shirt. I have been in unbelief; but in remembering how POWERFUL and how sweet it was when I first believed I just don't see how I could ever completely denounce God and His salvation.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

As we can see, God knows if we are really His, even if we forget ourselves. And we can also see that even false teachers also have the ability to overthrow our faith, if we give ear to their lies. Imagine believing on Jesus with all your heart, but later believing someone when they tell you that Jesus already came and left you behind, that would be pretty scarey I would think. We can be duped by liars too if we don't stay in the Word, and depart from initquity.


I think your saying Peter was not lost, I don't believe he was either. He was in a strait, lots of confusion inside, & he even left the ministry, & several other left with him. But later Jesus goes to him & the others, & Peter, & the other reconcile, they got it together, after this, Peter was fully perpared, & he preached the famous sermon on the day of Pentecost, & it seems he was a faithful to Jesus even unto his death.

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If Peter, or anyone else, could be saved with eternal life as we know it before the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost, then the church of the body began before Pentecost? And Romans 10:9,10 did not apply to those people?

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If Peter, or anyone else, could be saved with eternal life as we know it before the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost, then the church of the body began before Pentecost? And Romans 10:9,10 did not apply to those people?


Agreed, but we forget John 17 and I reiterate my point that Peter and the other 10 disciples were protected until there conversion at Pentecost. They may not have been "saved" by the Blood, but they were definitely saved from falling away and protected by God. As good as saved IMHO. Possibly a "special dispensation" or "covenant" specifically for them.

John 17: 1-19 KJV

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

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Every believer from Adam, to Abel, to Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc. was saved by grace through faith. Jesus is the Word who spoke the Worlds into existence, He is the I Am who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, he is the Son of God who walked with the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace, He is the "My Lord" whose enemies the Psalmist David declared would, sit at his footstool. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Old Testament beleivers look forward To the cross whereas WE look backward to it. He was ALREADY slain from the foundation of the world, the Bible says, but He was slain physically at the cross ca 2000 years ago. The day that Peter declare "thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" he was already a believer. The Bible says in John chapter 1 "even to them that believe on his name". Believers were calling on "his name" way back in Genesis 4.

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Every believer from Adam, to Abel, to Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc. was saved by grace through faith. Jesus is the Word who spoke the Worlds into existence, He is the I Am who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, he is the Son of God who walked with the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace, He is the "My Lord" whose enemies the Psalmist David declared would, sit at his footstool. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Old Testament beleivers look forward To the cross whereas WE look backward to it. He was ALREADY slain from the foundation of the world, the Bible says, but He was slain physically at the cross ca 2000 years ago. The day that Peter declare "thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" he was already a believer. The Bible says in John chapter 1 "even to them that believe on his name". Believers were calling on "his name" way back in Genesis 4.


Don't know if I believe this "grace before the cross" salvation of the OT saints. My bible reads LAW then GRACE. WORKS then FAITH. I can not find one instance, not one where the name of Jesus is mentioned in the OT so how could they call on His name when they didn't know it. He was slain before the foundation of the world because God lives outside/inside and is time. He was only slain in the flesh some 2000 yrs ago and it's the "slain in the SINLESS FLESH" that makes it a acceptable sacrifice to God.

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At least 120 years before the flood, Noah, by faith, found 'grace' in the eyes of the Lord. You can read about him in Hebrews 11. Even today, those who are unsaved are under the law.


Agreed and I think I know where Heb 11 is. And yes I am aware that the unsaved now are under the law. But what if Noah decided to stop building the Ark? He would have drowned with the rest of them but would he be in heaven? I am assured that no matter what my sin after salvation is I will still be seated with Christ in heaven as I am already seated in heavenly places with Christ. Were any of the great men of faith ASSURED salvation regardless of there actions after there initial act of faith that placed them in Heb 11? Unless of course these great men had a different covenant with God than the rest of their family and mankind.

Was Noah assured ETERNAL salvation because he built the ark? Then why was he the first to build a sacrificial alter? Was Abraham assured ETERNAL salvation because he was prepared to sacrifice his son?

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If Peter, or anyone else, could be saved with eternal life as we know it before the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost, then the church of the body began before Pentecost? And Romans 10:9,10 did not apply to those people?


I agree, Jesus started his church much earlier than Pentecost, yet there's many that believes it was not started till the day of Pentecost..

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Seems difficult to add to something on the day of Pentecost when it has not been started.

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Don't know if I believe this "grace before the cross" salvation of the OT saints. My bible reads LAW then GRACE. WORKS then FAITH. I can not find one instance, not one where the name of Jesus is mentioned in the OT so how could they call on His name when they didn't know it. He was slain before the foundation of the world because God lives outside/inside and is time. He was only slain in the flesh some 2000 yrs ago and it's the "slain in the SINLESS FLESH" that makes it a acceptable sacrifice to God.


Remember, in order to be saved by the law, one had to keep the whole law, just breaking one single law, would make a person lost, & Jesus was the only one ever, able to keep the whole law. So being as no one else could keep the whole law, they could not be saved by keeping the law.

Perhaps you think the animal sacrifices saved them, no, it was grace, remember, it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

No, they believed forward to the promised sacrifice on cross, while we look back to the promise of the cross.


Ro 4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Its by grace only that a lost soul can be saved, no matter, what time period they live in.

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